Old School 427 or Modular 5.0?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by itstock

Have you put your car on the scales? (and yes, that is awesome)

Yes, my car was put on a scale. I don't have the paperwork in front of me, but IIRC, my car was 49/51 or maybe it was 51/49, i can't recall, but i'm fairly certain the total weight was 2,128 lbs. with some amount of gas in it.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Amazing! I expect an aluminum block 427w would come in at ~2000 lbs then

Maybe, but the installation of a SB in a 427 Kirkham is extremely rare. They definitely do it in Australia with LS engines due to their regulations, but in the US, you could probably count them on one hand, not including the thumb, forefinger and pinky.

Anyone know the weight difference between an aluminum 427W and an all aluminum FE? It's gotta be less than 100lbs.

[itstock]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Yes, my car was put on a scale. I don't have the paperwork in front of me, but IIRC, my car was 49/51 or maybe it was 51/49, i can't recall, but i'm fairly certain the total weight was 2,128 lbs. with some amount of gas in it.

Do you have an aluminum block as well?

I found the Kirkham thread where they posted weights of certain cars in various configurations, but it's tough to find any weights outside of when Kirkham weighed them so my question was just one of curiosity.

[Jerry Clayton]

itstock----have you ever weighed any of the parts???keep in mind that the weights of the available alternators, starters,etc will be pretty much the same, the oil pumps and distributors the same, front covers/waterpumps fairly close, front dampners the same, flywheels can be anywhere but available at what ever weight you want so in real--the same---it pretty much gets down ti weight of internal rotating parts and the weight of most of the available present day cranks, rods,pistons are pretty close--------

I'm thinking that most of this misconception comes from looking at iron head/manifold FEs compared to the 289/302 small blocks and not the much heavier 351w blocks----

But-------I've weighed lots of parts over the years--------and the huge differances that people speak of is sorta like comparing camels to horses------------

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

itstock----have you ever weighed any of the parts???keep in mind that the weights of the available alternators, starters,etc will be pretty much the same, the oil pumps and distributors the same, front covers/waterpumps fairly close, front dampners the same, flywheels can be anywhere but available at what ever weight you want so in real--the same---it pretty much gets down ti weight of internal rotating parts and the weight of most of the available present day cranks, rods,pistons are pretty close--------

I'm thinking that most of this misconception comes from looking at iron head/manifold FEs compared to the 289/302 small blocks and not the much heavier 351w blocks----

But-------I've weighed lots of parts over the years--------and the huge differances that people speak of is sorta like comparing camels to horses------------

Jerry is hitting the nail square on the head and telling it like it really is!

Originally Posted by MJJ

I already have a 770hp/760tq GT500 and a 575hp/600tq 04 Cobra.

I am looking for a great sounding cobra that has great street manners.

I EFI for the reliability and easy starting but also want an eight stack system for looks. Yes I admit it.

Probably 425-475hp with similar torque. Some lopey idle is nice but not so much it sounds like it is going to stall every second.

My wife wants to drive it as well so I will be having power brakes and possibly power steering. Yes I know...just buy a new corvette......

I like the fact that the 427W is much lighter on the nose and handles better.

I respect others that have the true cobra period correct look and feel. I just want something that is fun.

You have already answered your own question MJJ. The ModMotor in supercharged form at the level you have built yours would be unsafe for most drivers in this light a car. You already know how useless first gear is in either your GT500 or Terminator. You also know how impressive those engines look when you open the hood.

So don't build for 770HP, turn the wick down and shoot for 500/550 RWHP - it's a walk in the park. Build it like your Terminator, you will have plenty of power! Don't forget most of the guys on this site think FWHP, you are talking RWHP on the GT500 and the Terminator. 770 at the tire is over 900 at the flywheel! I can count the number of cars on this site on one hand with several fingers missing that eclipse that number.

You already know the drivability, reliability and street manners that you get with the blown ModMotors. All you need to do is back a couple hundred horsepower out of the engine (how often do you hear that on this site?) to hit your targets.

Once you strap a blower on one of these engines it is a different engine in the extreme - and you know what I mean because you already own one. Like Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ who wanted to go home and had the ability all the time, you do too! All you have to do (figuratively speaking) is click your heels - stuff a blown ModMotor in there.

Think of your GT500 or Terminator with 1500 to 1800 lbs removed and a whisker less power. Mind bending performance and excellent street manners.

Ed

[itstock]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

itstock----have you ever weighed any of the parts???keep in mind that the weights of the available alternators, starters,etc will be pretty much the same, the oil pumps and distributors the same, front covers/waterpumps fairly close, front dampners the same, flywheels can be anywhere but available at what ever weight you want so in real--the same---it pretty much gets down ti weight of internal rotating parts and the weight of most of the available present day cranks, rods,pistons are pretty close--------

I'm thinking that most of this misconception comes from looking at iron head/manifold FEs compared to the 289/302 small blocks and not the much heavier 351w blocks----

But-------I've weighed lots of parts over the years--------and the huge differances that people speak of is sorta like comparing camels to horses------------

Exactly, it's hard to get an exact difference. But basic "crate" engines, I've seen anywhere from 140 to 180 for the FE (below 428).

Iron to iron 351 vs 390FE is recorded as 510 vs 650 at a bunch of different places. So a basic comparison is that the 390 series weighs at least 140 pounds more. An iron 460 is going to weigh in to the 700's.

DIfferent numbers yet again, but this is also listed on various sites.

221-302W = 460

302 Boss = 500

351W = 525

351C-Boss = 550

351M-400 = 575

332-428FE = 625

427 HEMI = 680

429-460 = 720

429-Boss = 635

[Jerry Clayton]

So your answer is NO---you haven't ever weighed any parts-------

And when you start talking weight and balance, f/r percentages---A BASIC CRATE ENGINE doesn't set the standards we are looking for----------

An iron FE block weighs from 195-210 lbs and an aluminum Pond FE block weighs 120-125 for a weight saving of aprox 75 lbs ---also Edelbrock heads will save 50 lbs over iron Ford heads--------

An iron 351 w is near 575 and a Dart iron block/alum heads at 465-470-

I guess that my point is that everybody wants to talk weight differance but has no idea where or how the differance is-----I've weighed everything in an engine including the nuts and washers, narrowed studs, amounts of coolant/oil system capacity makes, weight of hoses/fittings for remote coolers/filters(Ihave run race engines without oil filters to save weight of filters and oil in them)

Usually the mounting location of components(including engine /trans location) in both for/back AND height can/will effect handling/traction more than just basic weight differances--------

Anyway--sorry to hijack a thread about w or modular

[itstock]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

So your answer is NO---you haven't ever weighed any parts-------

And when you start talking weight and balance, f/r percentages---A BASIC CRATE ENGINE doesn't set the standards we are looking for----------

An iron FE block weighs from 195-210 lbs and an aluminum Pond FE block weighs 120-125 for a weight saving of aprox 75 lbs ---also Edelbrock heads will save 50 lbs over iron Ford heads--------

An iron 351 w is near 575 and a Dart iron block/alum heads at 465-470-

I guess that my point is that everybody wants to talk weight differance but has no idea where or how the differance is-----I've weighed everything in an engine including the nuts and washers, narrowed studs, amounts of coolant/oil system capacity makes, weight of hoses/fittings for remote coolers/filters(Ihave run race engines without oil filters to save weight of filters and oil in them)

Usually the mounting location of components(including engine /trans location) in both for/back AND height can/will effect handling/traction more than just basic weight differances--------

Anyway--sorry to hijack a thread about w or modular

You typed a lot of words but you failed to ever address the weight. If you have this much information on weights, why not share them? Why make your message so cryptic? We can find bare block weights everywhere, that isn't hard to do. And we can find 351w crate engine weights everywhere, again, not hard to do. Head and intake weights? Yep, still not hard to do. Why compare a bare block to a crate engine/long block?

In your experience, how much more does a similarly equipped 351w weigh compared to the 390 FE? How about the 460? You came in here to ask the question of weight difference when you could have apparently come out and said it from the start. So go ahead...just get to it and post the weights. If you have the information you could have stated in your first reply to this thread and this discussion could have easily been wrapped up.

[DanEC]

Not sure if this will clarify anything but this chart on engine weights is pretty interesting. I pasted part of it below. Looks like an iron FE is about 125 lbs more than an iron 351W.

http://fixrambler.com/engineweightchart.txt

Ford BOSS 302 500 (48)
Ford 351 Cleveland 550 (48) (includes BOSS and Australian 302-C)
Ford 351 Windsor 510
Ford 351 Windsor 525 (48) (168)
Ford 351M-400 575 (48)
Ford Y block V8 625 (272-312 CID)
Ford FE big block 650 (332-428 CID)
Ford FE big block 670 (1) ('59 352 CID)
Ford FE 625 (48)
Ford 427 SOHC 680 (48)
Ford 429/460 V8 640
Ford 429-460 720 (48)
Ford 460 V8 720 (10)
Ford BOSS 429 680 (iron block, aluminum heads)
Ford BOSS 429 635 (48)
Ford 4.6 SOHC 530 (93) iron block, aluminum heads
Ford 4.6 SOHC 473 (72)
Ford 4.6 SOHC 600 (168) (Mustang)
Ford 4.6 DOHC 464 (72) "9 pounds lighter than SOHC"
Ford 4.6 DOHC 437 (77) without accessories
Ford 4.6 DOHC 521 (94) aluminum block and heads
Ford 4.6 DOHC 576 (168) (Mustang)
Ford 4.6L (SOHC) 529 (231) w/flywheel 1998 Mustang, dressed (dry)
Ford 4.6L (SOHC) 492 (231) w/flexplate 1998 Mustang, dressed (dry)
Ford 4.6L (DOHC) 535 (231) 1998 Mustang, dressed (dry)
Ford Taurus SHO 3.2 V8 390 (229) Taurus SHO V8, no accessories

[Jerry Clayton]

If you want to talk weighs in a high performance or race vehicle you have to keep your eye on the bouncing ball and get away from shipping weights or web based crate engines--------

The FE is probably only about 30 lbs (or less) more than a Windsor based engine(I'm not talking 289/302)----the internal components will be almost identical in weights with comparable strokes------In fact the 427FE crank can be quite a bit lighter than your run of mill 351 4 inch stroker crank-------Pistons will vary some depending on CH and the dome/dish volumes but can be lightened in any case---wrist pins can be varied for any weight and rods will maybe vary 100 grams(only about 4 oz)
Oil pump, distributor will be equal, water pump/front coverfairly equal in aluminum----
The FE cylinder heads are some of the lightest anywhere and the alum ones will save 25 lbs per side--FE iron manifolds aren't even considered except on heavy duty trucks so won't look at a weight savings there except it will be a few pounds more than a 351w---

Starters and alternators will be equal and everyone should be using the new smaller compact sizes on either power plant

All this just comes down to there is a large following of the notion that the Windsor based 427 is a ton lighter than the 427 FE and it just isn't so--------

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

... An iron FE block weighs from 195-210 lbs and an aluminum Pond FE block weighs 120-125 for a weight saving of aprox 75 lbs ---also Edelbrock heads will save 50 lbs over iron Ford heads--------

An iron 351 w is near 575 and a Dart iron block/alum heads at 465-470-

Always funny how the BB guys always forget about the Dart Aluminum block when comparing to an aluminum Pond FE block lol.

[MJJ]

Originally Posted by eschaider

Jerry is hitting the nail square on the head and telling it like it really is!




You have already answered your own question MJJ. The ModMotor in supercharged form at the level you have built yours would be unsafe for most drivers in this light a car. You already know how useless first gear is in either your GT500 or Terminator. You also know how impressive those engines look when you open the hood.

So don't build for 770HP, turn the wick down and shoot for 500/550 RWHP - it's a walk in the park. Build it like your Terminator, you will have plenty of power! Don't forget most of the guys on this site think FWHP, you are talking RWHP on the GT500 and the Terminator. 770 at the tire is over 900 at the flywheel! I can count the number of cars on this site on one hand with several fingers missing that eclipse that number.

You already know the drivability, reliability and street manners that you get with the blown ModMotors. All you need to do is back a couple hundred horsepower out of the engine (how often do you hear that on this site?) to hit your targets.

Once you strap a blower on one of these engines it is a different engine in the extreme - and you know what I mean because you already own one. Like Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ who wanted to go home and had the ability all the time, you do too! All you have to do (figuratively speaking) is click your heels - stuff a blown ModMotor in there.

Think of your GT500 or Terminator with 1500 to 1800 lbs removed and a whisker less power. Mind bending performance and excellent street manners.

Ed

Ed

Thanks for the insight. You always keep the message... 1) simple 2) relevant 3)Impactful.

MJJ

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by MJJ

Ed

Thanks for the insight. You always keep the message... 1) simple 2) relevant 3)Impactful.

MJJ

Agreed ^^^

...and from my experiences, you missed No. 4)
"Quite erudite on the subject also"

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Always funny how the BB guys always forget about the Dart Aluminum block when comparing to an aluminum Pond FE block lol.

I won't forget.

Pond Aluminum FE Block = 120 lbs.
Shelby Aluminum FE Block = 125 lbs.

427 Ford Engine Block, Pond Engine Blocks FAQ
Finished Block 427 FE | Call Us @ 310-538-2914 | Carroll Shelby Engine Company

Aluminum Dart 351W
9.5 = 93 lbs. (9.2 = 91 lbs.)

http://www.dartheads.com/wp-content/...mall-Block.pdf

Difference = 120-93 = 27 lbs.

I'll betcha most of us around here carry 27 extra lbs of fat on their bodies that, if lost, would make that difference negligible.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'll betcha most of us around here carry 27 extra lbs of fat on their bodies that, if lost, would make that difference negligible.

Which they could drop, using nothing more than the trusty speed rope, if they would just get off their butts and exercise instead of posting on dumb threads like this one.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Which they could drop, using nothing more than the trusty speed rope, if they would just get off their butts and exercise instead of posting on dumb threads like this one.

This coming from "Captain Dumb Thread" himself.

Speed rope? Hey, let's start small and have people walking away from "health foods" like the Broccoli Beef, vegetable chow mein, General Zhou's chicken.

And then maybe a walk.

[itstock]

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

if you want to talk weighs in a high performance or race vehicle you have to keep your eye on the bouncing ball and get away from shipping weights or web based crate engines--------

the fe is probably only about 30 lbs (or less) more than a windsor based engine(i'm not talking 289/302)----the internal components will be almost identical in weights with comparable strokes------in fact the 427fe crank can be quite a bit lighter than your run of mill 351 4 inch stroker crank-------pistons will vary some depending on ch and the dome/dish volumes but can be lightened in any case---wrist pins can be varied for any weight and rods will maybe vary 100 grams(only about 4 oz)
oil pump, distributor will be equal, water pump/front coverfairly equal in aluminum----
the fe cylinder heads are some of the lightest anywhere and the alum ones will save 25 lbs per side--fe iron manifolds aren't even considered except on heavy duty trucks so won't look at a weight savings there except it will be a few pounds more than a 351w---

starters and alternators will be equal and everyone should be using the new smaller compact sizes on either power plant

all this just comes down to there is a large following of the notion that the windsor based 427 is a ton lighter than the 427 fe and it just isn't so--------

:lol:

so YOU don't know. Or you don't want to say. Thanks.

Just think of all of the time you wasted to get "about" measurements.

[PLDRIVE]

MJJ
425 to 475 HP is a mild windsor. In this horsepower range it will behave very well. I would look in the 427CI to 445CI range (a windsor will go out to 468CI). A SBF in this cubic Inch range will make plenty of low end TQ.


Stack injections are beautiful to look at, but will require good tuning skills. They also do not like restrictive filters (it will kill the HP).





Istock
"calms" = smooths out the cam. IR manifolds do not pulse in the same manner as single plenum manifold.

[MJJ]

Originally Posted by PLDRIVE

MJJ
425 to 475 HP is a mild windsor. In this horsepower range it will behave very well. I would look in the 427CI to 445CI range (a windsor will go out to 468CI). A SBF in this cubic Inch range will make plenty of low end TQ.


Stack injections are beautiful to look at, but will require good tuning skills. They also do not like restrictive filters (it will kill the HP).





Istock
"calms" = smooths out the cam. IR manifolds do not pulse in the same manner as single plenum manifold.

Thanks for the feedback.

In the GT500 world there are 2-3 premier tuners that are considered the best Like Jon Lund or Justin Starkey.

Is their an EFI "tuning god" in the 427w/eight stack world?

[Skuzzy]

Working from some level of long term memory, I recall an all iron 351W weighing about 140 pounds less than an all iron FE.

Replace the iron components, in both, with aluminum (block, heads, intake, water pump) and the gap closes a bit. Around 110 pounds difference, if I recall. It will vary some based on which aluminum components used.

All the main engine parts are smaller on a modern Windsor. Crank mains are the same size, rods are shorter, rod throws are smaller, crankshaft is shorter, block is smaller, heads are shorter, and so on.