News about my Engine problems

[cobra 53]

Summary of the earlier damages causing engine noises (see threads before)
Have a look at the first video and first photo.

I have changed the valve springs and pushrods into products recommended by Comp Cam to match the Solid Roller Cam.
I started the engine and the noises were gone (see second video).
Test drive of about 10 miles and car sounds alright.

I ordered new oil 10/40 Castrol Magnatec incl. new filter. I changed oil from 10/60 into the new 10/40. Totally 9 Quarts incl. filter. No metal on magnetig drain screw. Starting the engine, I realized new problem and new different noise (see third video).

I tried to localize the noise with my stethoscopes and it seemed to come from the area 5th cylinder towards distributor and Center of intake manifold.
Accordingly I decided to take off the distributor. Bronce gear was covered with a fine oil film, but looking at it closer I saw signs of wear. Cam gear ok (see photos 4 & 5).

Question: Does the noise come from distributor, as there are wrong ignition times?
After putting the distributor back and starting the engine, the oil pump is working.

After the discovery the defect bronce gear, I cut the old oil filter to check, if there are small metal parts left (see photos 2 & 3).

Car idling approx. 550 RPM (not adjusted), normally it would be 850 RPM.

The oil moves slowly through the Rockers and valve springs (see video 4). The oil pressure shows 70 psi and stays like this with warm motor and oil.

Touching the throtle, the oil starts splashing more, but the oil pressure remains at 70 psi.

Question: Is it possibly a defect oil sensor?

Do you have any suggestions??? As I am an V8 newbie, I am at a loss!

Rico

SBF 302 Engine noise 4 - YouTube
SBF noise 12 - YouTube
SBF 302 Engine noise 10 - YouTube
Oil pressure - YouTube

[bobcowan]

70 psi is much too high for a SBF. 45-50 psi hot is plenty.

Your distributor gear takes all the load of the oil pump. Bronze is designed to be sacrificial, and that saves wear on the cam gear.

I would get rid of that high volume pump. And, I'd take a close look at your oil pump drive shaft.

[Rick Parker]

If this is a more or less "Stock" engine with standard bearing clearances a High Volume pump should not be used. The 2nd pair of rockers do not appear to be oiling as well as the others. Check the pushrods and the hole through the rocker for blockage. The pump wont exceed 70 PSI as a standard HV pump goes into bypass at 70 PSI.

[Rick Parker]

bobcowan

I have use a High Volume & Hgh Pressure pump on my 289 for 24 years with the same shortblock. Bearing clearances are not stock. Pressure at speed is 70+, currently at idle about 35 PSI. Soon to be freshened. 15/40 or 10/40 oils. Never an issue with cam/distributer gears.

[cobra 53]

Good morning,

Rick; The rockers on cyl.6 are brand new from Summit.

This morning I changed the rockers and pushrods from cyl.6 to cyl.8 and raised up the idling to 850 RPM.

Oiling looks better, but noise returns when engine is getting warm.

I noticed on exh. valve on cyl. 5+6 little bubbles coming out through the valve springs.

While replacing the valve springs and push rods, I also changed the valve steem seals as well.

Is this the reason for the bubbles - is it due to badly fixed valve steem seals?

SBF 302 noise 13 - YouTube

Rico

[FWB]

I don't think its such a crime using the HV pump on a small block. i always did.
i never lost a motor.

the bubbles seem to be just from the oil drip from the spring retainer down to the head.......oiling looks rather normal to me.

the squeek/click has me wondering if there isn't a cracked rocker somewhere. have you checked to make sure the pushrod isn't coming into contact with the rocker at max lift?

is there a mechanical fuel pump on the motor?
i have had loose concentrics and fuel pumps make those noises.

it sounds like something hitting.......

[Frank Messina]

It's surprising that the oil pump drive shaft hasn't twisted itself into a pretzel yet. Your worn distributor gear is proof of excessive oil pressure and drag on the pump. There is no need for a HV oil pump in a SBF except in a highly modified engine with appropriate clearances. Stay with 10W30 or 15W40 max. Anything thicker than that robs power and does nothing for the engine. Replace your distributor gear with a steel gear (not cast iron) that is compatible with your roller cam.
Frank

[carmine]

Cobra 53
It almost sounds like outer spring rubbing some ware.
Or outer spring rubbing with inner spring.

[bobcowan]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

bobcowan

I have use a High Volume & Hgh Pressure pump on my 289 for 24 ears with the same shortblock.

You've been lucky. That's not the norm.

Originally Posted by FWB

I don't think its such a crime using the HV pump on a small block. i always did.
i never lost a motor.

High volume doesn't seem to be much of an issue. Some pro builders - The Engine Factory and Keith Craft - use a high volume pump in all of their engines. But some pro builders - Mike Forte and Gordon Levy - say never to use them.

After significant research, I think that if you're using external oiling system components - cooler, remote filter - then you should use a HV pump. Otherwise, use a standard high quality pump. My race engine uses a standard pressure/standard volume pump. Maintaining pressure on the race track and the street is not a problem.

BUT... I have NEVER found a good reason to use a high pressure pump.

Originally Posted by Frank Messina

It's surprising that the oil pump drive shaft hasn't twisted itself into a pretzel yet. Your worn distributor gear is proof of excessive oil pressure and drag on the pump.

This is exactly my point. The evidence is right in front of you. You just have to interpret it correctly.

[madmaxx]

I had a lifter not flowing oil once. Comp cams. Notice I said flow not pump the lifters do not pump oil. In the end the metering plate in the lifter was a little concave preventing flow.

[Dirty Harry]

21 years now with the same Mellings HV pump, running 10W40 Valvoline dinosaur oil

So far, so good. Might consider all that's been said here if building another sbf, but for now, all is well.

[RICK LAKE]

cobra 53 Rico Before I give my 2 cents on your motor problems, would like to ask you a couple of questions about what you do with your car. Are you racing it? This sound like a solid lifter motor? What is the camshaft max lift? What is the rocker ratio? Do you have .080"-.100" clear valve spring bind? Max rpms you have done? Do you have a rev limiter in the car for the ignition? Is there any marks under the rocker arms where the valve spring retainer make have hit the rocker? This is a good start for your problems.

Now for my 2 cents and 35+ years of motor building and racing.
As far as oil pumps in my motors, all run a HV setup. As far as oil pressure in my motors that are FE, I am running between 70-85 psi hot with a 15-40 Rotella oil that is warned up before running hard. IMP you can not have enough oil pressure and volume in ANY motor. I am still waiting for my first blown motor from high oil pressure. If you are streeting the car with a cooler and extra large oil pan the only thing to worry about is not getting the oil to the correct temp where it does the most protection of the motor. The most damage to ANY motor is during cranking to start the motorwhen it has no or little oil on the bearing surfaces. I have a 3 quart accusump for per oiling. This gives me 35 psi before cranking the motor. Same block and 2 different motor builds going from a 452 to 482 stroker and no failures. Cold oil presure on startup is 130 psi. This runs off the distributor and camshaft. There is a .015" oriface to spray oil directly on the gears of the distributor and camshaft.

Your problem I see. The bronze gear is for solid roller camshafts. As others have said, it will wear out in as little as 2,500 miles. Someone gave you poor info on installing of this gear. You want a gear to match the camshaft. Should be iron or a poly gear. There is a thread in CC about which gear to run with which camshaft. If your motor is out of the car, look behind the location of the distributor and see if there is an oil channel in the block. If so you may want to add a small spray oil of .010" to help lube the gears and not have them rely on splash from motor or drain back.
I see no problem with running an HVHP oil pump. Make sure the oil pump drive is a harden shaft. Give the motor a couple of minutes to warn the oil before moving. At 2,500 rpms I want to see a 60- 75 psi range. Once a year check the gear for wear. Camshaft end play, How much is there?? You don't want the camshaft to be sliding more than .010". They sell a torrrington bearing kit for most motor and a correct spec for camshaft end play. Too much play will also per wear out a distributor gear. Steel, iron or bronze. If you are racing and looking for every last HP you can run a stock oil pump and the motor will live for a couple of years. These motors have short lives and are rebuilt every year. Some guys never race there cars and stock does work. It depends on how deep your pockets are. Recheck this.
Valve spring, ?? I have seen them break. Most times it's from miss shifting at high rpms, coil bind, or rocker hitting retain of spring. There have been some bad batches of springs. This has been from poor steel materials. If 1 valve spring is broken, I would replace them all and recheck specs and clearances.
If you are running a solid lifter motor, DON'T allow it to idle. The oil pressure is low at idle and splash is also less. This applies for both roller and solid lifter. The reading you get on your gauge IS NOT the true reading in the whole motor. The oil pressure drop from gauge to back or front of motor can be from 10- 30 psi even though the gauge reads 35 at idle. Sorry for the long story. This is the best info I can offer you. Rick L.

[vector1]

I have a FMS engine from mid '00 that uses the high volume pump, it is a 351, and no problems.

Sometimes I wonder when these gears are being chewed up if the gears have been deburred or are they acting just like cutters.

[cobra 53]

New reasons for the problems found.

Please look at:

Ratty tat tat under the valve cover.
Ratty tat tat under the valve cover.
Ratty tat tat under the valve cover.

[RICK LAKE]

cobra 53 Rico You can rebuild these rockers with new bearings. They press in and out. get the ID and OD of the bearing and order some new ones. I am going to ask a dumb question, Who is the maker name on these rockers. They look like the stuff that Dove builds and install other company names on them. Comp cams and Scorpion are just a few they build for. I know they are not cheap but a set of Harland/Sharp might be a better company to go with. Other thing is to replace the rocker studs with ARP studs. Good luck Rick

[Blas]

Not to change the subject, but I took a moment to look at your gallery photos. I noticed that your spinners do not seem to fully engage on the spindles. I'm not sure if that is a problem or not. Your wheels don't appear to be standard issue WAW's or Trigos. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could take a quick look and comment....
And now back to the rockers.....

[cobra 53]

Blas; The wheels and Hubs are from Trigo. SS-Spinner from CobraRacing.com.

After having the car here in Spain it was fixed to match Spinners to the Wheels.

[cobra 53]

After looking a bit deeper in to the engine noise, the solid roller lifters are coming out off the engine.
Tree of them with bad roller bearings.
Cyl. 1 exh, 5 exh, 8 exh.

Solid Roller Lifters 1 - YouTube

[FWB]

i watched the video......if those lifter rollers are flat spotted, then they were not rolling all of the time going over the lobes of the cam. i would suspect there are grooves worn into the cam and new lifters will only be a temporary fix until the cam wipes them out too....look closely at the cam....make sure the lobes don't have deep witness marks where the lifters ran on them. if it does......its new cam time....

[cobra 53]

Hi,

Finally the engine fitted with the new parts, i. e. roller Rockers, valve springs, push rods, mechanical bar roller lifters, new distr. gears, oil pressure sender and oil temperature sender changed. Heads/Manifold port matched and valvejob made. Melling oil pump checked and cleaned.

After some humpady rumpady noises, the engine starts running.
All disappointing noises from before are gone and I think the result is ok.

Water temperature is ok.
Oil temperature is ok.
Oil pressure marks "Zero psi" (new Sender from Summit sww-279a/80 psi).
I replaced the new Sender with the old one and it marks 40 psi idling 850 RPM.

Before replacing all the defect parts, oil pressure idling was 60-70 psi. Oil flow on valve and rockers went well and fluent.

Comparing now idling 40 psi at 850 RPM looks like a rivulet.

Questions:
a) How can I check the new oil pressure Sender?
b) How can I check how much oil has to run on the valve / rockerarm area be idling 40 psi?


Thanks, Rico