Ford 385 (460) series Induction

[Mother]

I presently run a 460 custom built motor producing 740 hp with 680 ft pounds of torque. It is plenty to play with providing that you keep the rev's under 5 grand to prevent leaning out the mixture. I am using a reflowed 650 cfm 4150 Holley.

I am thinking seriously about going to change the intake to accomadate the 8 stack Hilborn EFI set-up. I know the starting kit is $7700 with the computer, plus options and linkage.

Install and set-up will be done by a NASCAR Canadian Tire engine builder. (New generation Engine of Fonthill Ontario Canada.) Cost unknown.

New Generation has completed a small block 427 using the Hilborn system and it works perfect. (675 / 605).

My question is has anyone else used the Hilborn system, or Inglese, or any other EFI 8 stack system, and their experiences. I know the benifits of going from a carb system to and 8 stack EFI system. True Webbers, and their inherent tuneing problems are a bridge I do not want to cross.

[ERA Chas]

I can't answer your question.
But I respectfully question how you made such power, using no more than 5000RPM and a 'reflowed' 650.
A displacement of 557" inches would be needed to easily produce 740+HP at 1.4HP/CI. Even if modified to 900CFM, (impossible without a larger baseplate and throttlebody) it would be hard pressed to get there. But the RPM limit makes no sense.
Hope someone can help with your request, but I'd be most interested in your complete combination.
Thank you,

[Bill D]

Check verycoolparts.com

[Tim Brewer]

That's kinda what I was thinking Chas. My 501 has Scat crank and rods, JE 10 1/2-1 pistons, Comp cams hydraulic roller cam, Torquer intake, Cobra Jet aluminum heads and a DaVinci Big Gun 1250 Dominator flowing 1381 CFM. This combo gives me 550 bhp at a little over 6000 RPM.

[DanEC]

Either a typo (950 cfm maybe) or it wasn't dynoed with that carb.

[Mother]

Gentilemen.
The engine is a custom built motor from New Generation Engine of Fonthill Ontario Canada. I can assure you that when one pays 30 grand for a custom, reliable built by an NASCAR Canadian Tire engine builder who supply engines to winners in the series as well as an engine supplier to dirt track racers, the numbers are accurate.

Besides numbers do not count. My original question was experience with all suppliers of EFI 8 stack fuel injection. What the final engines produces in torque and HP is of no importance. I am after information only. I am only after the look. I do not care what numbers will be created on completeion of the newly installed induction system. I find the current motor to be more than enough. I am seaking an awesome shock and awe look. An 8 stack system on an installed 385 - 460 block will more than give me that. Besides I want to continue to drive the car on the street, and have fun. Power is not what a 64 year old car nut is really interested in. Looks, sound, and haveing fun in my hobby is all I personally want. Nothing more. Sixty miles an hour is our speed limit up here. If you do over 90 miles an hour, and get caught, you lose the car and it gets crushed. So, speed only on tracks or strips. Numbers don't mean a thing. Looks, well thats the ticket.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Mother

Besides numbers do not count. My original question was experience with all suppliers of EFI 8 stack fuel injection. What the final engines produces in torque and HP is of no importance. I am after information only. I am only after the look. I do not care what numbers will be created on completion of the newly installed induction system. I find the current motor to be more than enough. I am seaking an awesome shock and awe look. An 8 stack system on an installed 385 - 460 block will more than give me that. Besides I want to continue to drive the car on the street, and have fun. Power is not what a 64 year old car nut is really interested in. Looks, sound, and haveing fun in my hobby is all I personally want. Nothing more. Sixty miles an hour is our speed limit up here. If you do over 90 miles an hour, and get caught, you lose the car and it gets crushed. So, speed only on tracks or strips. Numbers don't mean a thing. Looks, well thats the ticket.

Excellent post. That set-up will look wonderful. Post some shots of it if you can.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Tim Brewer

That's kinda what I was thinking Chas. My 501 has Scat crank and rods, JE 10 1/2-1 pistons, Comp cams hydraulic roller cam, Torquer intake, Cobra Jet aluminum heads and a DaVinci Big Gun 1250 Dominator flowing 1381 CFM. This combo gives me 550 bhp at a little over 6000 RPM.

Tim, the fact that you, Dan and I have raised suspicions that the power numbers don't add up is intentionally ignored by the OP. Further, we'll never know because he's unwilling to supply build specs or dyno sheets-his prerogative. He further doesn't understand that the induction he seeks is very dependent on his engine's ability to use it. I get it-he just wants to visually impress people.
The size of his checkbook has blinded him to the possibility that he was picked-off by race professional builders-in this case for a 60MPH-envelope street car.
He'll get no further input from me and probably not you or Dan.
And that will please him.

[Bill D]

Interesting that his personal profile lists 650 horsepower. Both numbers proclaimed seem dubious at best

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bill D

Interesting that his personal profile lists 650 horsepower. Both numbers proclaimed seem dubious at best

I believe him. Anyone who would use the moniker "Mother" has to be telling the truth.

[Mother]

Thanks guys.
I will end the question. I should have know better than ask questions, and open myself up for rebuke. About the size of my check-book? I indend to do the modification any way. And yes, pictures will follow when completed. The car is built by Boss Replica Motors in Burlington Ontario Canada. The car is far superior than any other 427 AC Cobra built in, and for Canadians. Besides, only kit's are allowed into Canada. Those kits can only have so many supplied parts. When completed, our D.O.T. has to ok the car when finished. Or you can purchase at least a 15 year old complete car and then if you are lucky, the D.O.T. Might let the unit be licenced. We can purchase a Super - preformance from London Ontario. I didn't because, in my opinion the Boss's car frame was much better. Also a turn Key car from Boss, came Guarentied and Passed by the D.O.T.

Mother "Because I care"

[ERA Chas]

Before you go; three-time Engine Masters Challenge winner and National Recordholder of multiple entrants, Jon Kaase's product and price:
Jon Kaase Racing Engines - 520 to 598 C.I. Kaase P-51 Engine
Are Canadian dollars 2 X US dollars??

[Mother]

No Canadian dollars are not 2X United States dollars. As of today, we have to add .07 cents Canadian to get one US dollar.

But having to send your motor back to the states for possible warrenty repairs, including customs, brokage, Crateing, and the distain most State-side engine builders have for Canadians. (because I am so distant form the builders and time to return the motor.) Well, its a risk I was not willing to take. Thus the decission for a Canadian Nascar builder. I am more than aware of John Kaase, and his excellent products. The P51 series is one excellent unit.

I would love to detail the 460 engine than was built for me. Unfortunatly I do not have the exact specs. And the cam specs will not be released by the builder. I do not even have a copy of the dino report. So, I understand why you guys feel that I am stringing you along. What I do know is that when I put my foot into the loud petal, the dual skid marks on the road, match the skid marks in my undies. Thank G_d for marine vinal seats. They clean up easily. LOL

Mother (Cause I care for my friends)

[STL Mark]

Without knowing the specs of your engine, and taking you at your word re: horsepower estimates, I would suggest a couple of things.

1) Have your current set-up dyno-tested for actual performance figures. Your dyno-tech may even suggest some enhancements to your current set-up that you may appreciate. And, you'll at the very least have a "before" picture of your engine.

2) Do a bit more research about Webber, and EFI set-ups. You may find that the "Look" you seek comes with a hefty price tag. Prepare for money well north of $7000 - just sayin. I'd wager that you'll probably have to get a different cam in that beast. Most of those set-ups require a specific cam grind, and I doubt the current monster cam you undoubtedly have will fit the bill.

3) Think about dual carbs. They have "The Look" too.

Honestly, if you are making 750 HP with a 650 carb - good on ya. Why mess up a good thing?

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Mother

I would love to detail the 460 engine than was built for me. Unfortunatly I do not have the exact specs. And the cam specs will not be released by the builder. I do not even have a copy of the dino report. So, I understand why you guys feel that I am stringing you along.

Despite my refusal earlier to comment further I want to correct your misunderstanding. I do not feel like you were 'stringing us along'.
Sadly, this news reinforces the feeling that several of us were correct in that apparently you were mistreated and misinformed intentionally by this builder.
Not providing build information, consulting you about part selection or providing evidence to support the claimed power production, is outrageous and insulting.
No one I ever heard of in ten years on this board has tolerated such treatment and engaged in a business transaction with such a builder. That's why we share info on here; to help others avoid such mistreatment and expose unscrupulous builders and vendors.
Had you been a more frequent visitor here and studied the available info before purchase, you would certainly have had a satisfactory and reasonably-priced build.
My intent above was to show that high quality, very high power 385's are available at half the egregious cost you were charged. In hindsight, you could reasonably round-trip a problematic engine five times (assuming your own expense) to a US builder and still not reach the total sum you spent. And I'm certain that would not have been necessary even once with the likes of Jon. Barry Rabotnick is also a first-rate builder 'on your doorstep' in Michigan.
Doing easy burnouts is a hooligan act that many of us enjoy but are done with as little as a 350HP combination in our light cars. I can assure you without contradiction that what little description you could provide does not add up to the claimed power level. But it's certainly enough to please you and in the end, that's all that counts.
I hope you come more often to join the discussions and do the research to further enjoy your car.
For the record, I'm older than you are and our local speed limits range from 55 to 65MPH with confiscation penalties also. That has not stopped me from 155MPH (on 'only' 550HP) at the right time and place - both on and off track.
Foolish? Sure-but that's why I love what Cobras are when used to their limits.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by STL Mark

2) Do a bit more research about Webber, and EFI set-ups. You may find that the "Look" you seek comes with a hefty price tag. Prepare for money well north of $7000 - just sayin. I'd wager that you'll probably have to get a different cam in that beast. Most of those set-ups require a specific cam grind, and I doubt the current monster cam you undoubtedly have will fit the bill.

I alluded to this very point in post #8-that the planned induction change is very dependent on the engines ability to use it. Since you don't know any specs, you would need to change out parts like cam and heads to be more compatible with the chosen induction. I know the cost doesn't bother you, but you may wind-up with an undriveable lump because unlike Mark, I suspect you have low-performance parts.
Even a stock iron 460 with 450 HP would easily do what you accomplish the way you use the car.
Mark makes a good point; tearing into your engine (by a reputable builder) just to identify parts is money better spent before a comprehensive induction change-over.

[mdross1]

These guys are right when it comes to having all the components inside an engine working together especially with EFI and an 8 Stack. Even if money were not an issue it would seem a real shame to spend 7k for a look that would not be any fun at all to drive.
When building our car with 460 looked into mechanical stack injection was talked out of it.Now have a Davinci 1000 cfm dbl pmp could not be happier.

Years ago before learning the hard way went through the aggravation in a daily driver that made me sick everytime I climbed behind the wheel. Finally out of desperation tore the engine apart and made things right,after that loved the look because the car then was a joy to drive.

Whatever you decide make it all work together you will be so much happier,good luck.
Mike

[Mdman352]

Just for conversation.....
A 460 cubic inch motor SHOULD have a 750-900 cfm carb on it. See here:

Carb CFM Calculator

I have 2 Cobras in my garage, one with a 427 (454) with a 850 cfm carb on it that made 486 hp and another with a 545 cubic inch motor with a 950 cfm carb on it that made 750 hp. Both motors were dynoed on a stand and once installed. The numbers are real and spec sheets were provided by the builder(s) (at half the cost of the aforementioned build).
That being said, stack injection LOOKS cool but filtration is an issue if the car is going to be used for anything more than occasionally going to a show.
Just for the record, 750 hp is NOT fun to drive around town.
Please do not take offense at the other posters as they are trying to help you.

[STL Mark]

I totally understand...he's after "the look". I just don't think that tearing into a very well performing engine is a good thing.

Dual Carbs also have "the look".

Just my .02 - he should look into that.

[D-CEL]

"My question is has anyone else used the Hilborn system, or Inglese, or any other EFI 8 stack system, and their experiences. I know the benifits of going from a carb system to and 8 stack EFI system. True Webbers, and their inherent tuneing problems are a bridge I do not want to cross."

focus people!
The OP is proud of his machine and happy with its performance. Yes a single carb can make the power. But that's not what he is asking. Now that he has been served a plate full from the self-righteous, lets get back on task with the question or quietly bow out...

Mother,
There are several Individual Runner systems for the 385 series Ford, Hilborn, Kinsler, TWM/BORLA, VCP and others.
I think its important to understand, that while IR EFI rigs are cool, they are VASTLY more complex, costly and will require patience and studied dedication OR a pile of dollars to end up with a tuned and efficient motor.
Even good tuners get nervous when they see all those throttle openings and linkage. Lots to think about when your trying to balance it all on a running motor.
I have TWM system I bought used that came off a Cobra. The orig. owner spent near $10k and could never get it to do what he thought it should do. So he tore it off, thru it in a box, slapped on a single plane and a big carb and never looked back. He was expecting to bolt it on, plug it in, and run like a new car...Not so much.
I am confident in saying you can get there with the right hard parts, efi controller and most important FIND A GREAT TUNER IN YOUR AREA!
Remember, just because they build motors, doesn't make them a great EFI tuner. Do some research on Yellow Bullet in the EFI section. You will learn a lot.
I am a big fan on the new Holley EFI controllers, I think the self learning capability and user friendly, visual based tuning tools make the process infinitely less daunting. Personally, I like a system with an IAC (Idle Air Control) but that is something to discuss with your tuner.
Good luck!
Jason