Replica or a modern reproduction?

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

.... guys here throwing stones at me who don't own a "Cobra".....

I'm slightly offended!
1. They're replica stones, not real ones
2. My Cobra is a real, original '60s car (check out my avatar)

Cheers,
Glen

[Nedsel]

But wait ... there's more! As long as there is such a mass of wanking going on here, let's consider another fact: the genuine/ original 1960s Cobras were ALL manufactured by AC Cars of Thames Ditton, England, and they used chassis numbers that were assigned to them by AC Cars based on their prior AEX (Ace) and BEX (Bristol) examples. The C-series chassis numbers, including CSX (Shelby ), COX (eXport= lhd) and COB (Britain = rhd) all follow that pattern. The question then becomes, what circumstance elevated Shelby American to the position of manufacturer, giving them the right to adapt the AC Cars chassis number system and declare themselves the legitimate owner of the rights to do so? And, once Shelby changed the equation around, making the cars strictly an American product, should any of the continuation cars be accorded the same legitimacy or authenticity granted the originals? Now there's some food for thought ... or mental masturbation.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I agree that the person asking the question "Is it real" usually wants to know if it's an original Cobra. I think that's fair.

If I say "yes" and stop there, I'm not lying but agree it's misleading as to what they are likely asking.

Thank you Evan... I'm with you to here...

BUT, you lose me a little with your next bit... So I'll FIFY...

Originally Posted by REAL 1

If I answer "yes" and add "BUT not an original Cobra, simply a current production continuation series (or cobra) by Shelby" I been both truthful and haven't mislead anyone.

ELSE...

Originally Posted by REAL 1

They clearly can't be under the impression its an original Cobra and they now know its a genuine Continuation Series Cobra.

YOU'D Think so... But, sorry, you'd be WRONG!

Exhibit 1:
PhotoPost Classifieds - CSX4048 FOR SALE - ALL PAPERS 2700 MILES - Powered by PhotoPost Classifieds

Originally Posted by REAL 1

If they inquire further and if I have time I am happy to answer any questions. I always answer the question honestly. I am proud of my car. I am sure other Continuation owners are proud of their cars too and don't want to pass it off as an original.

Good on you! You should be proud of your car... its sounds like a nice car. No doubt it replicates the driving experience of a 1965 original to a more accurate degree than any other example of COBRA. Certainly more than my piece of junk

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Ironically, I'd be willing to bet that a great number of the guys here throwing stones at me who don't own a "Cobra" new or old when asked "Is that a Cobra" lie and say "Yes".

This may not fit your beloved SAAC definition, but equally it doesn't deliberately give Joe public the wrong impression!

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I've heard guys with "replicas" do that time and time again over the years. Truth is they are not Cobras, not by a long shot. So whose misleading who? If they were asked is that a "real Cobra" they would also be lying again by answering yes no matter what with the same answer. Either way replica owners can't truthfully answer yes.

One can tell the truth, yet still be lying - I did NOT have sexual relations with that woman...
By definition he's not lying... but I (along with the rest of the world) call BS, and that secreting those bodily fluids on "that woman" constitutes "sexual relations" despite what SAAC or Webster have to say...

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I don't see my clear and authoritatively position as being petty.
Sorry. I am defending and rightfully so what the car is. What I see as petty is the need by others who don't own one to continually try and tear it down. That's petty.

I see your position about as PETTY as the guy with a replica who responds "NO, its better that the original" or "NO, its an improved cobra" or variant of...


FWIW - when I'm asked "is it a real cobra" I respond, with a simple, NO! despite it being "real" and despite it being a "cobra" as by both your definition earlier in this thread, and the fact the rest of the world defines the car by its shape as a cobra.
I would be WRONG and misinforming them to tell the "truth" (as per your definition) and answer "YES!"

JMHO, as seemingly shared by the rest of the world (excluding the handful of csx guys, who have vested interests... No?), and are trying to grasp to something to fill whatever void they have...

Just sayin' time you get over it!

[Dimis]

My plastic FFR mark 1 is titled 1965.

If I'm asked if its Real or Original...

Would I be lying if I answer: "YES, Original/Real 1965! My title says so!!"

See telling the truth, doesn't mean you aint lying.

What are you CSX continuation series boys trying to hide?

Embrace your cars for what they are:
Rebadged cars from another manufacturer, with an inflated price to boot
Ouch! Now I'm just poking the bear...

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

......

Ironically, I'd be willing to bet that a great number of the guys here throwing stones at me who don't own a "Cobra" new or old when asked "Is that a Cobra" lie and say "Yes". I've heard guys with "replicas" do that time and time again over the years. .......

Yes! This whole discussion is because those that don't own a genuine Shelby do have a chip on their shoulder and need to find a way to tell people their car is cool even though it isn't a genuine Shelby. If they didn't, they wouldn't have such angst about answering the question.

Even those that don't have a 1960s Cobra but have a Shelby have a chip on their shoulder because they go through such great lengths to argue that theirs is a continuation Cobra and the registry says so.

Guess what? NO ONE ASKING THE QUESTION CARES. Continuation, replica, kit, custom, no one cares. It's not an original. They walk away disappointed and you feel bad because you couldn't say yes.

Question: Is it original?
Answer: No.

[bingo2]

I agree with this definition:

Replica | Define Replica at Dictionary.com

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Paul F

.. NO ONE ASKING THE QUESTION CARES. Continuation, replica, kit, custom, no one cares. It's not an original ...

Have to agree, for the enthusiast who has experience with these cars you don't get "is it real?", you get "who made it?"

Those with no experience in the hobby will ask "is it real?", and what has been said here time and time again is that what they really want to know is "is it an original?"

Owner's choice to answer truthfully or not, but there is no "gray area" for the answer imo.

[REAL 1]

Very interesting observation in seeing that the guys who are seeking justify their own "personal views" which are clearly intended to bring down something they don't own continually "like" each others posts. Just like you guys have your own mutual admiration club. You guys can't let facts get in the way of opinion now. That would ruin everything.

Also interesting was that when Ned posted something earlier that was misread by some as again supporting their personal opinion it was immediately liked. However, if you noted Ned "liked" Jim's post who nailed the issue on his first try yet none of the, well, "Shelby" detractors cared for that post very much. Interesting.

Ned's last statement which seem to be an effort to add grist for the mill is somewhat misleading but yet course once again based on what was said "literally" by him it was again noted with interest the usual suspects immediately liked it. The bias is so transparent.

I hate to disappoint but the fact is that very simply AC didn't manuafacture "Shelby Cobras". Shelby American Manufactured Shelby Cobras. AC shipped rolling chassis to Shelby for completion. In fact numerous improvements were made by Shelby to the AC chassis and changes to the body (AC Ace) to transform what AC supplied into Shelby's Cobra. Shelby developed it, manufactured it and refined it into the world legend it became. Shelby was the manufacturer of the Shelby Cobra. Yes, some cars of the 2000 series carried teh AC Ltd tag but were not Cobras until they left SAI. Period. AC was, however, allowed to build their version of Cobra (AC Cobra) under license from Shelby in Europe. So as Shelby manufactured the Shelby Cobra in 1962-68 he is legally and rightfully entitled to make a Cobra today and continue the production regardless of who he uses as a supplier of basic chassis and body. To refuse to recognize this would result in loss of credibility just as in refusing to recognize the obvious of any existing fact results in loss of credibility. You can't change facts or history no matter who you are.

Dimis: Do me a favor, if your going to impeach me as to what I say or said use an example of what I said or did not what some sot said or was trying to do back in 2010 to try and sell a car. Cleary he was a jack$$. There is no dearth of "replica" owners trying to pass their cars off as Shelby Cobras either. Plenty of those

No, I am not giving Joe public the wrong impression. I answered truthfully and honestly to the question posed as to "is it real?". If "joe" has questions what a Continuation series Shelby Cobra is or current production Cobra is he is free to ask and I'll answer.

When he asks if my car is a Cobra, factually, truthfully legally and authoritatively I can answer "yes". Its as simple as that. You however can also answer yes but the difference is your lying. Moreover, how do you know what he is "really" asking when he asks is that a Cobra? Is he asking is a genuine Cobra or does he mean a replica? Your truthful answer would be "its a replica Cobra". Otherwise your lying. Period.

ERA2076: Your answer is totally fallacious and patently false to the average Joe when you tell them that it's a Cobra as opposed to a "Cobra replica" but hey if your cool with that keep doing it if in your own mind it really is a Cobra. Have you met buddy g?

Paul F: I agree 100% with your first paragraph. You nailed it.
Paragraph 2 is incorrect. I don't have to go to any lengths to argue the current production Cobras are Continuation Series Cobras. Thats exactly what they are. They are a continuation of the first series Cobras by SAI. Also, honestly I been met with nothing but enthsuiasm and excitement when people who ask learn my car is a genuine Shelby Continuation Cobra and it draws crowds not only on its looks but based on what it is just like it did 14 years ago.

bingo2: Precisely. Which is why if these guys want to use the literal dictionary definitions their non Shelbys don't even rise to the replica level.

No matter how you guys slice it truth is truth and facts are the facts and its all there in the Registry. For those of you that still can't accept the current production Cobras are genuine/real Shelby Cobras, come on over and I'll show you my cars MSO, delivery paperwork from SAI and title that says Shelby Cobra. My Id plate even says Shelby American Inc. Pretty sure it's a Shleby Cobra. Yep. Pretty sure.

[A-Snake]

Unlike prior Registries, the fourth edition included "other" Cobras including Kirkhams, Shelby American CSX4000 etc, Brock coupes, Mike McCluskey Daytona Coupes. Here is the explaination as to why these "other" Cobras are included. This is from page 16 of the Registry.

“Including all of the “other” Cobras and GT40s in the new Registry has an unintended consequence of providing them with a sense of legitimacy simply because they are “in the Registry.” However, this is nothing more than a pleasant coincidence for their owners. The reason they are included is to illustrate that they are different from the original Cobras and GT40s and to detail exactly what the differences are. Without providing specific production figures, detailed serial number break-downs and locations and owner information, it would be all to easy, some 15 or 20 years from now, to phony up an AC MK IV or CSX4000 into a real 427 Cobra and foist it off onto an unknowledgeable buyer who had a copy of the Registry which contained only original cars. A lot of those who know Cobras and GT40s cold will no longer be around to blow the whistle. Once there are no ‘experts’ on the scene, it will turn into the Wild West and anything will go. If no one can tell a real Cobra from anything else, the values of all cars will diminish at the same rate the history of the real ones becomes cloudy. So we go the extra mile to include these other cars in order to solidify the history of the originals. Nothing more.”

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

....

Paragraph 2 is incorrect. I don't have to go to any lengths to argue the current production Cobras are Continuation Series Cobras. Thats exactly what they are. They are a continuation of the first series Cobras by SAI. Also, honestly I been met with nothing but enthsuiasm and excitement when people who ask learn my car is a genuine Shelby Continuation Cobra and it draws crowds not only on its looks but based on what it is just like it did 14 years ago. ....

You are re-inforcing my point with this paragraph. Even your handle exemplifies the point.

[Cobra #3170]

Just a bit of history, my 1965 purchase order specifically says 1966 427 Cobra it does not say Shelby Cobra. We never called them Shelby Cobras ever, there were however, Shelby Mustangs. None of the Cobra owners I knew wanted to call his car a Shelby anything because we did not want people to think we had Mustangs. This situation has been repeated with the Ford GT, if you tell someone you have a Ford GT they automatically think Mustang.
I have made this point before but could not resist bringing it up again, we also called them AC Cobras but again, never Shelby Cobras. I lived in California from the time I purchased the car till 1968 when I moved to Michigan and none of the owners I met there called their cars Shelby Cobras either.

[Nedsel]

I wonder if that might be due to the fact that the small-block cars were always called "AC Cobras" and Shelby had to beat journalists over the head to make them refer to the big-block cars as "Shelby Cobras." In neither case did Shelby build the cars, hence he was not the manufacturer of them. He simply supplied badges while Ford supplied the drivetrains. Pure and simple truth.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

Just a bit of history, my 1965 purchase order specifically says 1966 427 Cobra it does not say Shelby Cobra. We never called them Shelby Cobras ever, there were however, Shelby Mustangs. None of the Cobra owners I knew wanted to call his car a Shelby anything because we did not want people to think we had Mustangs. This situation has been repeated with the Ford GT, if you tell someone you have a Ford GT they automatically think Mustang.
I have made this point before but could not resist bringing it up again, we also called them AC Cobras but again, never Shelby Cobras. I lived in California from the time I purchased the car till 1968 when I moved to Michigan and none of the owners I met there called their cars Shelby Cobras either.

This is how it has been told to me a number of times by owners from back in the day. AC wasn't a dirty word and Shelby built Mustangs.
Larry

[LMH]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I wonder if that might be due to the fact that the small-block cars were always called "AC Cobras" and Shelby had to beat journalists over the head to make them refer to the big-block cars as "Shelby Cobras." In neither case did Shelby build the cars, hence he was not the manufacturer of them. He simply supplied badges while Ford supplied the drivetrains. Pure and simple truth.

Not to diminish original cars but a lot of SA's work on the cars once they arrived from England was sloppy and hap-hazard. The oil temp bung immediately comes to mind.
Larry

[REAL 1]

ASnake: Interesting. Whoever wrote that passage in the introduction obviously didn't cross reference it wth the other contributors or the editors missed it since it is in clear conflict and diametrically opposed with numerous other passages in the Registry and the clear specific definitions and categories set out and even SAACs own clear and unequivical statement on their website.

Clearly, whoever wrote that passage in the introduction had an axe to grind and clearly inconsistent and outweighed by the numerous other statements and specific definitions set forth very clearly and definitively.

The definitions and categories are clear and the discussion of the Continuation Cobra is clear.

What's clear legally and factually is that there are Original Cobras and Continuation Cobras that exist today.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I wonder if that might be due to the fact that the small-block cars were always called "AC Cobras" and Shelby had to beat journalists over the head to make them refer to the big-block cars as "Shelby Cobras." In neither case did Shelby build the cars, hence he was not the manufacturer of them. He simply supplied badges while Ford supplied the drivetrains. Pure and simple truth.

Really? Didn't need Phil Remington to put badges on. Come on Ned. Really. Thats just not true. AC Ltd supplied chassis and body, Shelby provided and installed drive train and completed the cars for delivery. Plain and simple truth. The Cobra was conceived and developed and refined by Shelby. It bore no resemblance to the AC Ace when Shelby was done. Are you saying the Cobras Shelby completed were sold and invoiced to dealers and customers as AC's and sold as AC's? Really? Wheres proof of that.

My understanding is that the vast majority of 289s were sold as Shelby Cobras. Is this not the case?

[Nedsel]

Nope, it's not the case. AC invoiced the cars to Shelby as an "A.C. Cobra" and Shelby invoiced them to dealers as a "Cobra-Ford." And Phil Remington worked on the race cars for the most part.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Really? Didn't need Phil Remington to put badges on. Come on Ned. Really. Thats just not true. AC Ltd supplied chassis and body, Shelby provided and installed drive train and completed the cars for delivery. Plain and simple truth. The Cobra was conceived and developed and refined by Shelby. It bore no resemblance to the AC Ace when Shelby was done. Are you saying the Cobras Shelby completed were sold and invoiced to dealers and customers as AC's and sold as AC's? Really? Wheres proof of that.

My understanding is that the vast majority of 289s were sold as Shelby Cobras. Is this not the case?

AC supplied a lot more than just body and chassis. It was a complete car, minus engine and transmission. It didn't make sense to send the drive unit to England only to return it to the states.
AC had completed the run of Bristol engine cars and was building the RS2.6 when Shelby came into the picture. Ford was already involved with AC for the project. Shelby didn't design the Cobra and you can see clearly where it's design came from. The final RS2.6's were completed while the first Cobra's were being built.
Larry

[ERA2076]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

ERA2076: Your answer is totally fallacious and patently false to the average Joe when you tell them that it's a Cobra as opposed to a "Cobra replica" but hey if your cool with that keep doing it if in your own mind it really is a Cobra. Have you met buddy g?

First - let me say I mean no disrespect to anyone here, it really is just chatter.

Come on now - anyone that knows Cobras can tell immediately mine is a replica - he does not need me educate him. We are both aware of Cobra history and he either accepts replicas or he does not and he is not going to be-little me because of it. If he is really religious about it, he is not gong to talk to me or look at my car.

If someone asks 'is it a Cobra" I say yes it is a Cobra. If they persuit, depending on their apparent knowledge, I discuss my car with them, the fact it is a replica and who built it. There are lots of non-Cobra people out there who identify with the cars, don't know all the details, and it is ridiculous to feel like you have to try to explain anything to someone that does not know just to increase your chances of going to heaven. It is just silly.

With 7.5 billion people in the world it is statistically a nats ass that knows anything about these cars and a pimple on the nats ass for the amount of originals compared to 7.5b.

Is it a Cobra - classifies a virgin
Is it real (original) - classifies an illiterate who has lost their virginity

An Enthusiast would ask neither. He might make POS references, but that just save lots of time.

So are you worried I am violating virgins because nothing could be further from the truth - I love virgins

ERA has been building Cobras since 1981 (?) It seems like I remember reading someone started building kits in the 70's. When did Ford and Shelby come to an agreement?

Cobras are kit cars made race cars and always have been. Shelby and Ford kicked them to the curb and they took on a life of their own without him.

It is rather amusing how many car sellers put them on the market as Shelby Cobras - that is BS. They should be listed with OEM and Shelbys name should be nowhere to be found because they are not Shelby Cobras.

They are however - Cobras

chr

[Ralphy]

Evan, how ignorant and thick headed you are. When I'm asked what it is? I'd like to say it's an Everett Morrison. Then continue from there. But did you ever think even a car guy would know what a EM is? Evan, IMO most people try to define what they have only to relate to the unknowing public. Your sick and a fool! Just trying to get a rise because you own a SA. Go back to the SAAC board since it's evident you hate anything but a Shelby built Cobra. It bleeds from your postings, your first post started with attacks and you've never stopped. It's not seeking to justify, it's seeking to identify for non SA owners! If all the continuation owners are like you, "I'D BE PROUD TO NEVER OWN A CONTINUATION CAR."

Your words show no pride, just arrogance. You make SA owners look bad. You and your cronies are probably the ones who go around to shows and scream it's a replica rubbing your hands together. Your sick! I had just bought a SAAC poster one week before this thread, had it framed. Because of you, I'll never look at it the same. If I had any SAAC power would revoke your membership. I'd like to think your a one man freak show, but I think not. If your what I'm to expect there? I will not attend any SAAC events. Thanks for the heads up and saving my money. And I would encourage all other non SA owners to do the same.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Very interesting observation in seeing that the guys who are seeking justify their own "personal views" which are clearly intended to bring down something they don't own continually "like" each others posts. Just like you guys have your own mutual admiration club. You guys can't let facts get in the way of opinion now. That would ruin everything.:LOL

Ralphy