Replica or a modern reproduction?

[BevanWright]

And you buggers with ford motors in your fakydoos whine about my chev powered thing!

I remember reading this nonsense when I joined club cobra years ago. surprised to see it is still going! In fact the busiest thread, that is sad.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and nobody has to agree.

I have a Kevlar bodied, steel chassis, chev powered, race car that I call my Cobra. I would never race a real cobra, all replicas, continuation cars etc are cool, and I like all of them.

Sorry Real1 I don't think a car made by a replica manufacturer with fibreglass body is that close to the original cars. The fact that the value is higher than the equivalent replica means some people agree with you.

Shelby would sell anything, there has been plenty of stories, taking someone else's replica and selling as continuation to me is a little misleading. Sure... Legally it is continuation etc, but... Isn't clear cut is it?

[Dimis]

Ralphy,

Now that's a bit harsh...
Not all CSX guys suffer Napoleon syndrome...
Perhaps not tarnish them all with the same brush.
Some are really cool guys. Don't let the buggers get you down and spoil your poster.

Evan:
would you agree that answering: "Yes, a counterfeit 1965 shelby cobra" for a csx4 series car would be THE most truthful, honest and correct without any illusion or chance of msguiding Joe public?

Over to you sir.

Ps. We've already confirmed mine is a cobra as per your definition.
Yet Im happy to call it a fakedoo to make you feel better. No issues.

I like this game you started.
Thx

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

ASnake: Interesting. Whoever wrote that passage in the introduction obviously didn't cross reference it wth the other contributors or the editors missed it since it is in clear conflict and diametrically opposed with numerous other passages in the Registry and the clear specific definitions and categories set out and even SAACs own clear and unequivical statement on their website.

I would say the writer and editor-in-chief is Rick Kopec.

Here is the Registry passage being questioned by REAL1;

“Including all of the “other” Cobras and GT40s in the new Registry has an unintended consequence of providing them with a sense of legitimacy simply because they are “in the Registry.” However, this is nothing more than a pleasant coincidence for their owners. The reason they are included is to illustrate that they are different from the original Cobras and GT40s and to detail exactly what the differences are. Without providing specific production figures, detailed serial number break-downs and locations and owner information, it would be all to easy, some 15 or 20 years from now, to phony up an AC MK IV or CSX4000 into a real 427 Cobra and foist it off onto an unknowledgeable buyer who had a copy of the Registry which contained only original cars. A lot of those who know Cobras and GT40s cold will no longer be around to blow the whistle. Once there are no ‘experts’ on the scene, it will turn into the Wild West and anything will go. If no one can tell a real Cobra from anything else, the values of all cars will diminish at the same rate the history of the real ones becomes cloudy. So we go the extra mile to include these other cars in order to solidify the history of the originals. Nothing more.”

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

My understanding is that the vast majority of 289s were sold as Shelby Cobras. Is this not the case?

The vast majority of 289 Cobras were invoiced as "Cobra-Ford." Only about 9% used the term "Shelby AC Cobra", and that term was mostly used on the early 260 and worm & sector cars.
As for the 427/428 cars, I find only four examples that used the word "Shelby" in the description on the invoice.

The information is in the footnotes in the Registry.

[buddyg]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

I would say the writer and editor-in-chief is Rick Kopec.

This is Hilarious Real1 has quoted the SAAC as the end all of anything Cobra and when someone points out that SAAC says CSX4000 cars are not Real 427 Cobras suddenly there is an error!

Real1 you are really unbelievable.

[mdross1]

Your words show no pride, just arrogance. You make SA owners look bad. You and your cronies are probably the ones who go around to shows and scream it's a replica rubbing your hands together. Your sick! I had just bought a SAAC poster one week before this thread, had it framed. Because of you, I'll never look at it the same. If I had any SAAC power would revoke your membership. I'd like to think your a one man freak show, but I think not. If your what I'm to expect there? I will not attend any SAAC events. Thanks for the heads up and saving my money. And I would encourage all other non SA owners to do the same.

Honestly have to agree with Ralphy, so many of our non original, non continuation cars were assembled with as much care for total performance as any in the Registary. I certainly understand the intense defense of that sacred doctrine and would hope that at an SAAC event would not feel like an outsider. Is it really worth all this?

In the end nothing that has been said so far has made me feel any less for my creation. Honestly, I feel more a part of a brotherhood with the majority of you that responded than I do with a small minority. Thank you

[REAL 1]

So, now you guys like the Registry? Now that an owner of an original series Cobra found a single paragraph buried near the end of the Section having nothing to with actually doing the work of the Registry (setting out the information and definitions of the Registry) but simply the Registry's evolution entitled "Evolution of the Registry" which is clearly diametrically opposed to the vast weight of whats written and stated clearly and concisely elsewhere in numerous other parts in the Registry in more than one respect including the the definitions and categories you guys are once again in love with the Registry

Now that you guys like the Registry let me guess which part, or which isolated paragraph buried at the end of a section on the Evolution of the Registry that you really like.

Also, I didn't say "error" I said inconsistent and diametrically opposed.

As Ned pointed out there was apparently some hard feelings between SAAC and Mr. Shelby in 2008 when the current Registry was being compiled and just a wild guess here..perhaps that necessarily included those at the top of SAAC and Mr. Shelby at the time when the new Registry was compiled. The tone of that paragraph buried near the end of that section to me clearly has a tone of sticking a thumb in Shelby's eye. Again, thats how it reads to me. But it clearly says what it says. I find it also unfair to Contnuation Cobra owners and insulting.

If this is SAAC's true attitude and position as stated by this one person they should have made it clear upfront and conspicuously and clear to owners of Contiuation Cobras what their true purpose and attitude was. If this is their attitude I doubt it will promote much cooperation from Continuation owners in the future.

Clearly, then SAAC needs to clarify or correct or reconcile somehow
that one paragraph written by the one person with the vast weight of what is stated elsewhere in the Registry which clearly also says what it says.

In the meantime, until SAAC clearly explains the inconsistency between that isolated paragraph (written by that one person at the top of an organization who clearly had editorial reign to say what he wanted if he was "editor in cheif" and as Ned alluded to whose organization was not exactly getting along with Shelby and in a bitter dispute with him at the time) with the numerous statements and the express information provided in numerous other pages by the hard working and dedicated contributors and entuhisasts which is the literal position of Registry and the preponderating view of the Registry and the position provided in specific dedicated sections dealing with the issue that clearly is the Registry's official position as I see it and not mere one persons view buried in a "non-working" part of the Registry.

Further, if what the was stated in that paragraph in the Evolution of the Registry Section is really the intent and view of SAAC as opposed to what appears to be one persons editorial on the subject all the Registry needed to very simply do was stay consistent with that person's statement especially if it was the editor in chief's statment throughout and not set out to define and refer to the Continuation Series as "genuine" Cobras or "Cobras" or authentic Cobras which the Registry clearly does in dedicated sections dealing with those issues. All they needed to do was to stick the Continuation Series Cobras and everything else not of the original series in the "Replica" pot. It would have been simple to do. Stroke of a pen. However, they specifically and expressly didn't do this and furthermore went the extra distance to explain why.

Also significant is the fact that likely the subject of how to define these cars and categorize them was the subject of many a committee meeting and discussion and likely eventual consenus view (which obviously some at SAAC didn't like) but nevertheless adopted as the published view. Yep. Its all there.

Gee Mdross1 I am not the one throwing aspersions. I am merely pointing to the definitions and categories used by SAAC when addressing the issue. The way it see it the aspersions being hurled in my direction and toward the current production Cobras.

Buddyg: Whats unbelievable is your inability at analysis and ability to understand.

Ralphy: Sorry you are so upset by all this. You say "arrogance" I say "sour grapes" in an effort to denegrade what some don't own. As far as who is being ignorant, thick headed, sick and a fool I'll let my words speak for me you and I'll let your words speak for you. I'm very comfortable with that.

In the meantime what remains an undeniable truth regardless of the SAAC editor in chief's views is that what continuation owners own are current production Shelby Cobras. He can't change the facts either.

Heck, maybe Continuation owners will start our own official Registry!. Maybe you guys are right after all, who needs SAAC?

Hey. you guys have a good day.

Cheers.

P.S. Message to SAAC. You have what appears to be an inconsistent statement in your Registry at page 16 with what is clearly stated in the preponderance of the your Registry. If you like I can provide all the page numbers. Thought you guys might like to know.

P.S.P.S. You also appear to have Continuation Cobras on the cover of your World Registry of Cobras & GT40s. Does that need to be fixed?

[buddyg]

I still don't care what SAAC says but your the one who put all your eggs in that basket. So now you are scrambling to justify your worship of SAAC when they clearly said your car was not a REAL 427 COBRA their words not mine.

This whole sour grapes thing is ridiculous, I could have bought a "Continuation Cobra" but I didn't see the value in spending more money for essentially the same thing. You did and you bought yours and that's what's great about freedom. I don't really care what you call your Replica of the original. I just don't care for you or your condescending attitude.

You are the one with the inability to analyze and understand.

[AL427SBF]

Take the SAAC Registry off the table and just deal with the question Joe Public is asking "is it real". Either you agree his/her curiosity is focused on "was it built in the 60's" or you don't. Some have a mental block and cant' accept that translation to get to the fundamental right answer. Ironically, all have been asked that question many times, and if you're being honest, it always goes to same place "no, it's not a 60's original but ...".

Now put the SAAC Registry back on the table with definitions below. Everything said above in not in conflict to the registry as some have implied. In fact, the registry provides you guidance on how to answer that question truthfully IF you understand what Joe Public is fundamentally asking.

1. Original Cobra: Those produced between '62 and '68.

2. CSX Continuation Cobras: Current production Cobras built by Shelby to more less original standards delivered without engine and transmission.

3. Kit Car or Replica: Any Car with a body which approximates the original Cobra shape, using any kind frame, suspension, brakes or driveline.

Joe Public is asking if your car is an original cobra and nothing more. How they frame the question should not be viewed as your opportunity to get your foot in the door and steer away from the fundamental right answer. Once answered, if Joe Public decides to walk away so what, why do you care? If more dialogue follows then cool - you've met someone truly interested in the hobby.

[ChicagoChris]

:

Originally Posted by buddyg

I still don't care what SAAC says but your the one who put all your eggs in that basket. So now you are scrambling to justify your worship of SAAC when they clearly said your car was not a REAL 427 COBRA their words not mine.

This whole sour grapes thing is ridiculous, I could have bought a "Continuation Cobra" but I didn't see the value in spending more money for essentially the same thing. You did and you bought yours and that's what's great about freedom. I don't really care what you call your Replica of the original. I just don't care for you or your condescending attitude.

You are the one with the inability to analyze and understand.

Wow, well I really don't care what you call your Superformance Cobra replica either!

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by LMH

Not to diminish original cars but a lot of SA's work on the cars once they arrived from England was sloppy and hap-hazard. The oil temp bung immediately comes to mind.
Larry

You really hit on the head, cut a hole in the pan, weld the bung in with the pan still on the engine, repaint over the burned paint, why bother. How about the top that doesn't fit over the roll bar just stretch it till it bends the dot fasteners in the aluminum. They had little regard for everyday customers, we were a necessary evil. They would not even fix my severally bent lower front control arms when I brought it down to SA to show them their design screw up.

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

...
In the meantime what remains an undeniable truth regardless of the SAAC editor in chief's views is that what continuation owners own are current production Shelby Cobras. He can't change the facts either.

That is an undeniable fact. The other undeniable fact is that in the context of the original post - nobody cares. No matter how it is documented in the registry, it still isn't a Cobra from the 1960s. Now that's a Cobra. Sure, your's is a Shelby Cobra. Its a real Cobra, but it isn't a real Cobra.

In a conversation at a car show, if you told a Thunderbird enthusiast you owned a T-Bird, you would peak their interest. When you both walk up to your 2002 T-Bird, well.... who cares? It's not a T-Bird. It's not a real T-Bird. Yes, it is a genuine Ford Thunderbird. That is undeniable. But it really isn't is it? Not in the context that enthusiasts view it. They wanted to see a 1955-57 T-Bird.

It's obvious you have great pride in your car and enjoy it very much. My point is that no matter what re-make we own, if we don't have a 1960's Cobra, we shouldn't cloud the conversation nor let our ego/pride/insecurities cloud up the conversation with an innocent that walks up to us and asks if its real or if its original. They only care about one thing. Adding anything else to the answer 'no' is for your benefit, not theirs. If they want to know more, they will ask.

This lengthy discussion shows how hung up we are about it. But nobody else cares.

Well, I'm full of popcorn. See you guys the next time this comes up.

Evan, if you're ever in the San Francisco Bay area, post a note. It would be fun to meet over breakfast or drinks.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by buddyg

I still don't care what SAAC says but your the one who put all your eggs in that basket. So now you are scrambling to justify your worship of SAAC when they clearly said your car was not a REAL 427 COBRA their words not mine.

This whole sour grapes thing is ridiculous, I could have bought a "Continuation Cobra" but I didn't see the value in spending more money for essentially the same thing. You did and you bought yours and that's what's great about freedom. I don't really care what you call your Replica of the original. I just don't care for you or your condescending attitude.

You are the one with the inability to analyze and understand.

The above again is yet another shining example of your inability to grasp and comprehend. I am not scrambling to justify. It's their inconsistency not mine. "They" did not say it wasn't a genuine or real Cobra. It was one person who wrote that passage and wrote it in clear conflict the the rest of the Registry in many areas on many pages. I believe clearly an axe to grind motivating that passage. In sharp contrast to this one man's statement buried in a non working portion of the Registry I offer as just one example the following: Please refer to page 30 of the Registry. You will also note the express verbiage "SAAC has established" as a preface to the working definitions they set out. Go on to read the definitions. This is just one supporting example. There are numerous others.

As far as being condescending. I will agree to disagree here. You like that phrase right? I was merely setting out what SAAC's official position as they expressly stated they established. Not my words. Theirs.

If the "editor in chief's" view is in fact SAAC view they should have made it clear to Continuation Cobra owners when solicitiing information on their Continuation Cobras. If that "view" was SAAC's view and was made known to Continuation Cobra owners I doubt they would receive much cooperation or information from them and if that is their "view" as opposed to what is clearly expressly stated otherwise in many areas of Registry I dare say they shouldn't expect much cooperation in the future from Continuation owners to keep track of these cars. Certainly won't get much cooperation from me.

However, based on my reading of Registry I don't believe this one persons view is SAAC's official position. It clearly is not as I literally read the working parts of the Registry.

Regardless some clarification should be provided by them as to why that paragraph which is so inconsistent and contrary to the rest of the Registry was published.


Cheers.

AL427SBF is correct once again.

Paul F: Yes. I clearly understand your point and yes if we are limiting Real Cobras to originals and yes most people want to know if its an original. I get it. I'll take you up on your offer if I am ever in San Fran. Likewise..
If you are ever in NJ pm me. Would love to have a get together with you.

Cheers.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

They would not even fix my severally bent lower front control arms when I brought it down to SA to show them their design screw up.

Bruce, as you probably know, the factory comp 427s had reinforcing gussets welded to the lower control arms, as Shelby was aware they could deform under racing load. A mechanic I knew in NJ, Ray Heppenstall, used to regularly repair and strengthen these back in the day, and he would then forward the bills to Shelby American. He claimed he always got reimbursed. Shame they never gave you the same treatment.

[Ralphy]

Evan, maybe your concerned how many people come to you and Idol you. But if I wanted attention I'd go buy a 69 Chevelle, buy a folding chair, grow a beer gut and bake my ass off at some wanker show. Only to discuss car polish and where I'm going to eat after sipping my brew! Seems to me the more an owner spends at these shows the less they know. I've walked up to guys with a rough, work in progress and they have more knowledge and excitment for what they own than beer gut.

I'm not intereste in Static Motionless Trophy Winners! I'm more interested Checkered Flag Kind Winners! What major title of racing has a continuation won?


I don't care who asks me squat about my ride. Because I didn't buy a car to get chicks or have people hover over my chrome. The fact is if I went to an all Shelby show and you parked all the originals to the left side and continuations to the right. I and I'm sure most would be massing on the left. Why is your car much less important? Because anyone with the cash can go buy a new one. If SA sold 100,000 CSX4000 they would be passe.

Poser? Why did I say that?

The real meat IMO, is an original Shelby raced car not a poser, The Gold!

Poser 1st degree: anyone who bought an original to race.
Poser 2nd degree: anyone who bought an original for the street.

P1 and P2 are also gold but less than P1 IMO.

Poser 3rd degree: anyone who bought a continuation.
P3 is closer to P4 than P2.

Poser 4th degree: anyone who bought a replica, etc....
Poser 5th degree: anyone who bought a replica, etc....

I'm sure sub groups could extend the list. I randomly without calculation said, I'm a 7th degree. However maybe a 5th.

Ralphy

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Bruce, as you probably know, the factory comp 427s had reinforcing gussets welded to the lower control arms, as Shelby was aware they could deform under racing load. A mechanic I knew in NJ, Ray Heppenstall, used to regularly repair and strengthen these back in the day, and he would then forward the bills to Shelby American. He claimed he always got reimbursed. Shame they never gave you the same treatment.

Ned,

When I brought the car down there I showed them the problem and (I think it was Rem) was very disturbed when he saw the bent arms. He jacked the car up and was going to change them out when Shelby walked over looked at the odometer and saw that it had about 3000 miles on it and told them not to fix it.
I am not sure when they first found out about the issue but I am pretty sure this was one of the first ones because I have seen many SC's without the fix.
This occurred in early 1966 probably around April. I used silver bronze braze to attach a piece of .125 wall strap stock mounted vertically on both sides of the lower control arms which worked well. I did hear that they came out with the kit to fix the problem but I think it was about a year later.

Shelby and I became friends through Ford about 30 years later and laughed about how he screwed me back in the day.

[OnyxRider]

Well I stopped reading this nonsense some time ago and a few of you must have nothing better to do with your time.....this thread is now known "As the Cobra Turns" a new online soap opera.


Edit: Ooops sorry do I have permission to use the word Cobra here?

[ERA2076]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Heck, maybe Continuation owners will start our own official Registry!.

Perfect -

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Ralphy

Evan, maybe your concerned how many people come to you and Idol you. But if I wanted attention I'd go buy a 69 Chevelle, buy a folding chair, grow a beer gut and bake my ass off at some wanker show. Only to discuss car polish and where I'm going to eat after sipping my brew! Seems to me the more an owner spends at these shows the less they know. I've walked up to guys with a rough, work in progress and they have more knowledge and excitment for what they own than beer gut.

I'm not intereste in Static Motionless Trophy Winners! I'm more interested Checkered Flag Kind Winners! What major title of racing has a continuation won?


I don't care who asks me squat about my ride. Because I didn't buy a car to get chicks or have people hover over my chrome. The fact is if I went to an all Shelby show and you parked all the originals to the left side and continuations to the right. I and I'm sure most would be massing on the left. Why is your car much less important? Because anyone with the cash can go buy a new one. If SA sold 100,000 CSX4000 they would be passe.

Poser? Why did I say that?

The real meat IMO, is an original Shelby raced car not a poser, The Gold!

Poser 1st degree: anyone who bought an original to race.
Poser 2nd degree: anyone who bought an original for the street.

P1 and P2 are also gold but less than P1 IMO.

Poser 3rd degree: anyone who bought a continuation.
P3 is closer to P4 than P2.

Poser 4th degree: anyone who bought a replica, etc....
Poser 5th degree: anyone who bought a replica, etc....

I'm sure sub groups could extend the list. I randomly without calculation said, I'm a 7th degree. However maybe a 5th.

Ralphy

Ralphy: Yes, yes. This categorization helps tremendously.



Sorry your so worked up over this.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Ralphy,

Now that's a bit harsh...
Not all CSX guys suffer Napoleon syndrome...
Perhaps not tarnish them all with the same brush.
Some are really cool guys. Don't let the buggers get you down and spoil your poster.

Evan:
would you agree that answering: "Yes, a counterfeit 1965 shelby cobra" for a csx4 series car would be THE most truthful, honest and correct without any illusion or chance of msguiding Joe public?

Over to you sir.

Ps. We've already confirmed mine is a cobra as per your definition.
Yet Im happy to call it a fakedoo to make you feel better. No issues.

I like this game you started.
Thx

First, my friend as to the pejorative description of me as suffering from Napoleon syndrome you are wrong. I am not short but of average height. .

Second, no I wouldn't agree with describing the Continuation Cobras as counterfeit 1965 Cobras. I'm sure this is precisely and exactly the way you and others here would love to describe them, however, and are trying to describe them. That's the entire rub of the issue I have with the "sour grapes" crowd who continue to 'bang their rattles on the ground' insisting the Continuation series is nothing more than a "replica too" just like their cars. It is their efforts to ascribe this definition that is objectionable in view of the SAAC definitions as "ESTABLISHED BY SAAC" see page 30. If you want to use the Webster definitions that fine, I'll do that but you can't have it both ways which is exactly what you and the other "sour grapes" crowd want. Non Shelby Cobras (i.e. ERA's FFR, BD, EM ,Uniques, Butlers, Street Beasts, Contemporaries etc.,etc.) are either replicas per SAAC or they are the "counterfeit" cars pretending to be Cobras if you want the Webster's definition to apply. You can't have it both ways unless of course you want to live in your own world as some clearly insist on doing. It's actually quite simple.

Is your "Polish thing" a Kirkham? You never answered the question. If so, you are free to deprecate your own car which based on the definitions "ESTABLISHED by SAAC" your car is "Kirkham Cobra" whose history parallels the history involving AC with regard to supplying chassis and aluminum bodies to Shelby American to the specs of the original series. Owning a Cobra new or old doesn't imbue one with brains. Obviously you insist on deprecating what you own. Carry on.

Cheers.