I have to post this and I don't meant to displease anyone so don't post "there are tons of threads you should go read them"....because I've already read quite a few. I'm looking at this from my point of view. Keep a few things in mind. I have been around old school motors but have never touched one....I have never owned anything with a carb and I naturally lean towards a mod motor such as the coyote just due to my age. So for the sake of conversation and information that may impact my decision lets have a discussion. I'm on here to listen and learn not to be scolded by the grandpa mafia lol
*Everyone including me wants as much power per dollar as they can get....we all know it. Where we fall off the wagon is how practical and what would we actually do with it.
*We are talking 100% street car. If am going to live with carbureted gas guzzling V8 I want like everyone else for my car to sound like a demon....so we are talking about a camshaft that can live on the street and still be streetable.
*I've heard 408's are the magic number for these cars due to price point and usable power. Makes pretty logical sense aren't they in the 8500-9000 range for some crate setups?
*Take the statement above and blow that out of the water.....you then come across the guys crate motor that says for 3K more you can get a 460 with 700HP and 650 torque lol. I completely understand that changes your tranny and rearend options and the fitment of the engine
* Whats the most logical reasons you wouldn't do a stroker 460 vs a SBF 427? If you commit to crappy mileage and having an awesome cammed out motor why would you not go for the BBF?
Any engine can be made to make big horsepower. The crux of it though, is that the larger the engine, the easier it is to make that horsepower at a lower rpm, with less compression, more streetability, etc.
For instance, I built a 445 inch Windsor that made 660 hp here on the dyno, at around 7000 rpm.
I also built a 529 inch BBF that made 740 hp, but it did it at only 6000 rpm, and had 700 lb-ft of torque to boot.
It all depends on how rowdy you want it to be, what type of gas you want to run, and what you want it to look like.
The BDR and SPF cars both will accept pretty much any engine you want to throw in them.
Cobra Make, Engine: West Coast Cobra 2007, 460 manual trans
Posts: 29
Not Ranked
(getting out popcorn, ready to lurk)
I am new here, but from engine perspective, the fuel injection stuff is more complicated to get setup, but most modern shops/companies are used to dealing with it by now. You need different fuel pump, lines, bung for o2 sensor, that sort of thing. But saying you can have older engine and make it MPInjection. I think they have to be base lined and setup with a data table to run on until they go into closed-loop mode (where fuel mix is determined by the o2 sensor and other sensors). That's about the extent of my knowledge and some of it maybe wrong, but you get the idea. I have seen a cobra that had a velocity stack sort of MPI setup and the guy was running it and it sounded incredible. Crisp, and monster powerful sound.
But a modern engine like a Coyote that was designed specifically for FI seems to me make more sense. Plus they are aluminum blocks and less weight on the nose of the car. MPG if that matters, would be higher I'd imagine.
Buddy has a car collection, and the carb cars - well they act like it. They dry out in week or less, and get hard to start. They gum up, especially on modern gas. They run crappy generally until warm. They can get vapor-lock in hot temps.
I know you would likely spend $$ more on a FI car than a carb car all things added in (fuel tank/pump, tuning, wiring, etc) but it would act like a modern car in terms of driveability. Seen some awesome C2 corvettes that have a modern chassis under them and all new gauges set in the original gauge cluster, etc. But cost on them is well north of six figures.
Cobra Make, Engine: West Coast Cobra 2007, 460 manual trans
Posts: 29
Not Ranked
Oh an factor in everything else - accessories like PS and alternator, are they going to fit on a coyote? motor mounts? Side pipes exist or do you have to go custom?
Personally, I'd look at MPI for sure, either on old school engine like FE or new Coyote / LS series. Especially since you admit you don't have skills/experience with the carbs and don't want to be bothered with them.
Any engine can be made to make big horsepower. The crux of it though, is that the larger the engine, the easier it is to make that horsepower at a lower rpm, with less compression, more streetability, etc.
For instance, I built a 445 inch Windsor that made 660 hp here on the dyno, at around 7000 rpm.
I also built a 529 inch BBF that made 740 hp, but it did it at only 6000 rpm, and had 700 lb-ft of torque to boot.
It all depends on how rowdy you want it to be, what type of gas you want to run, and what you want it to look like.
The BDR and SPF cars both will accept pretty much any engine you want to throw in them.
Honestly I haven't looked under any of the hoods on these cars and thought wow that doesn't look good...unless it was just filthy. The 427 motor doesn't do anything for me that the coyote look doesn't. I'm way more concerned about the look of the car and it's cleanliness than popping the hood and wanting it to be original looking
*would run 93 octane only and I want the most bang for my dollar. Only thing I will say with my limited knowledge is that it can be as rowdy as it can be I just don't want a cam that stalls out or that you have to be on the interstate going 80mph to keep from surging
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirkdaddy
(getting out popcorn, ready to lurk)
I am new here, but from engine perspective, the fuel injection stuff is more complicated to get setup, but most modern shops/companies are used to dealing with it by now. You need different fuel pump, lines, bung for o2 sensor, that sort of thing. But saying you can have older engine and make it MPInjection. I think they have to be base lined and setup with a data table to run on until they go into closed-loop mode (where fuel mix is determined by the o2 sensor and other sensors). That's about the extent of my knowledge and some of it maybe wrong, but you get the idea. I have seen a cobra that had a velocity stack sort of MPI setup and the guy was running it and it sounded incredible. Crisp, and monster powerful sound.
But a modern engine like a Coyote that was designed specifically for FI seems to me make more sense. Plus they are aluminum blocks and less weight on the nose of the car. MPG if that matters, would be higher I'd imagine.
Buddy has a car collection, and the carb cars - well they act like it. They dry out in week or less, and get hard to start. They gum up, especially on modern gas. They run crappy generally until warm. They can get vapor-lock in hot temps.
I know you would likely spend $$ more on a FI car than a carb car all things added in (fuel tank/pump, tuning, wiring, etc) but it would act like a modern car in terms of driveability. Seen some awesome C2 corvettes that have a modern chassis under them and all new gauges set in the original gauge cluster, etc. But cost on them is well north of six figures.
fuel injection would only find its way on my car if it was a coyote. 2 local cars here have different EFI systems on Roush's and they both are looking to go back to a simple carb. I am in no way saying FI can't be done correctly but It doesn't appeal to me for the cost.....and my elevation and driving conditions wouldn't call for it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirkdaddy
Oh an factor in everything else - accessories like PS and alternator, are they going to fit on a coyote? motor mounts? Side pipes exist or do you have to go custom?
Personally, I'd look at MPI for sure, either on old school engine like FE or new Coyote / LS series. Especially since you admit you don't have skills/experience with the carbs and don't want to be bothered with them.
I think the coyote package has been figured out to a degree with certain vendors. I'm not carb shy I've been told you just get someone to set it correctly and then leave it alone and you will be okay as long as you don't let it sit up and obviously there will be some maintenance at some point
I did a 460 stroked to 503 in my first Roadster. It was a monster. Loved it. If I ever build another BB car, it will be even bigger
You my friend are an enabler! I'm waiting on the next post to be someone with a 302 that says man my tires spin with 325hp anything more is not usable! In all honesty I'm sure the 351s and 408's are monsters and not practical but a cobra in general isn't practical
The big issue is size - physical external size. The Cobra is a small car, and will swallow a Lima or FE motor without much difficulty. But changing spark plugs can be a nightmare with such limited access.
A secondary issue is parts availability. Just about every kit maker can easily supply parts like motor mounts, trans mounts, headers, etc, for a Windsor motor. They're inexpensive and sitting on the shelf waiting for your call.
Big block parts are not nearly as common, and therefore not nearly as cheap. Some kit makers do not have motor mounts or headers for a BB. You'll have to source them from somewhere else of build them yourself.
Speaking of headers, the exhaust can sometimes be a problem. When you find an off the shelf header, it might not be able to handle 700+hp - you need big tubes and pipes for that.
For economics and ease of maintenance, the small block 408 wins hand down. For ultimate power, bigger is better. You have to decide what you can live with and without, and what you're willing to pay for.
IMO, decide which one gives you a woody. Buy that one.
As for the carb, again it's your choice. I think if you want a nasty engine that screams like a banshee, is easy to drive, and gets good mileage, you need EFI. If the choice is a carb'ed BB vs. EFI 408, I'd take the 408 without a second thought.
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The cam in that 445W that made 660 hp @ 7000 allows the customer to idle around his neighborhood, over speedbumps, etc.
And yes, you are correct, once the carb is tuned, you should be good to go.
The good thing about the larger big blocks is that you have the horsepower and the streetability both. They will cruise, run on pump gas, etc., and you can give them as much throttle as you see fit. Pretty easy to get 700 hp out of them and cruise around like it's nothing.
You my friend are an enabler! I'm waiting on the next post to be someone with a 302 that says man my tires spin with 325hp anything more is not usable! In all honesty I'm sure the 351s and 408's are monsters and not practical but a cobra in general isn't practical
These cars have gas pedals. They don't have to be driven at WOT all the time, and yes even with 325 hp, you can let one get away from you.
The biggest part of owning a Cobra is that you have to have some fear, respect, and common sense.
These cars have gas pedals. They don't have to be driven at WOT all the time, and yes even with 325 hp, you can let one get away from you.
The biggest part of owning a Cobra is that you have to have some fear, respect, and common sense.
Completely understood. My 600rwhp 3700lb car is dangerous....so a little old cobra demands a decent head on your shoulders. I got away from the streetbike because it made 400rwhp on 93 octane.....talk about dangerous and all the family complaining that came with that
If I did it again, which I won't, I would do a bbf with 100 plus hp more than I currently have. I wouldn't do it because I need more power, honestly 480rwhp (550 plus flywheel) in this car is plenty for the street, I would do it just because.
If money really weren't an issue, I would do some exotic extremely high revving sbf.
There you have it. Spend an extra grand or two or three or five and go bbf. The weight is really a non issue. My car has rear bias as it is.
Economically speaking, as far as parts quality is concerned for longevity and endurance (road racing), the dart/boss block sbf is the way to go.
I will tell you that with 480rwhp, this car is way more of a handful than my old 660rwhp 03 cobra was.
The war of BBF vs. SBF will forever rage on as both sides are quite polarized in their opinions of both. The bones of contention are -
- Engine weight and how that affects handling of one versus the other
- How fast it revs (time to RPM) of one versus the other
- How high it revs (redline) of one versus the other
- How much HP & torque created over RPM of one versus the other
A Dart 427w is a pretty popular choice for the SBF option, 520-550 HP seems to be pretty common on pump gas and they can be made to produce more depending on build. An all aluminum Dart 427w was my choice for a track performer with good street manners.
Any SB can be made to perform like a BB and visa versa, but when looking at these 2 motor types in general terms (significant numbers of each), and being of similar build quality and components, the strengths (or weaknesses) listed above clearly have a home with either the BB or SB, but not both. Again, generally speaking - when looking at a reasonable population of SBs and BBs, and where general characteristics of each can be quantified.
Seems to me if you want a motor that caters to handling and road course performance you go one way, if you want a motor that caters to straight line acceleration you go the other. Both motors do each well, but one is better suited to it than the other depending on what it is (again in general terms).
Don't forget the interplay of wheel size, suspension, gearing, brakes and driving style in your motor selection, you want the whole system to play well together.
I would really like to know which engines you are comparing, because again, this sounds like an armchair warrior view of things.
When you think of small block and big block, what are you thinking of exactly?
AL427SBF has a well-established bias towards small blocks because big blocks are too expensive, too heavy and handle like pigs, rev slowly, and often explode when rev'ed over 5,500 RPM, when compared to small block engines.
Patrick has a well-established bias towards BBF's in Cobras, because kids will cry when they see a SBF under the hood of a 427 Cobra.
You just have to realize these opinions going into EVERY small block versus big block decision thread.
... Patrick has a well-established bias towards BBF's in Cobras, because kids will cry when they see a SBF under the hood of a 427 Cobra ...
You forgot to add that patrickt destroked his BB to rev like a SB
Yes, I am biased toward SBFs, I just can't ignore the trade study of performance vs. weight vs. parts availability vs. reliability vs. maintenance vs. cost.
As if you guys weren't biased toward BBs lol, like I said both sides are quite polarized in their opinions
When you guys get a handle on rotating mass, reciprocating mass, the inertia required to move it and its' parasitic drain on motors get back to me
lol, I responded to the OPs question honestly from my point of view, sorry you decided to hijack the thread and make it personal - that is what is getting old. Ace has my input along with others and he is quite capable of sorting it all out.
I'm not here to fight nor should my post have been deemed inflammatory, why don't you give it a rest.
You forgot to add that patrickt destroked his BB to rev like a SB
Yes, I am biased toward SBFs, I just can't ignore the trade study of performance vs. weight vs. parts availability vs. reliability vs. maintenance vs. cost.
As if you guys weren't biased toward BBs lol, like I said both sides are quite polarized in their opinions
When you guys get a handle on rotating mass, reciprocating mass, the inertia required to move it and its' parasitic drain on motors get back to me
You know, every time you mention "rotating mass," "inertia," SBF's, etc., the first image that comes to my mind is this:
1Likes
to SBF or BBF
Linear Mode
