Chevy in a Cobra

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Ok, back by popular demand here I am.

Yes, of course I ruin threads. Yes of course I reiterate the same thing over and over. But you left out the other half of the equation. The same threads and questions continue to pop up and be asked. As facts don't change naturally my responses never change. Threads are ruined not because of me. You give me too much credit. Threads are ruined when those with personal opinions different from fact get their panties in a wad and want reality to comport with their own little reality/opinions.

BTW I agree with ALSBF427 100% on the BB vs. SB thread. Moreover, I don't see where he said anything inflammatory nor is he close to being a "troll".

You see there are facts then there are personal opinions. Facts don't change but personal opinions vary like snowflakes and are always subject to change and modification.

Onyxrider's posts tend to be somewhat cryptic. Although he clearly used the "Chebby" topic to get in a shot at current production Cobras with his "own opinion", that's fine. He is clearly entitled to his opinion. Just like a$$holes everyone has one. No issue with his opinion at all as that's all it is and means 0 to anyone but him and less then 0 to me.

On the Chebby topic I offer the following....To me it's simple. Chevy power in a Cobra replica is heresy. To be a Cobra proponent and advocate and then to actively put Chevy power in your "Cobra" replica is heresy on a number of levels.

You car still qualifies as a "Cobra replica" to me provided there is some effort beyond a Cobra look a like shell such as hardware and/or gauges and/or trim etc...Although, SAAC's definition gets you in to the "replica" category even if you have peddle power, Camry gauges, F150 Wheels and pogo sticks for suspension my OPINION departs from that of SAAC's. My standard is a little higher so all of you knocking SAAC to get at me may want to re-think your positions. In short, you have your opinion about my car I have my opinion about yours.

There is no question in any sane persons mind who has even an inkling of knowledge about this hobby and what a Cobra is that Chebby power is a major deduction in value and attractiveness to others including on resale (except those looking at the bottom end of the "Cobra replica" market due to finances), at car shows or anywhere else on this planet except obviously to the misguided who consciously made the self destructive decision to put a Chebby in their car.

Chebby power does have it's advantages. True. They are cheap. They are as plentiful as cow chit in a pasture. Any Pep Boys will likely have what you need. They do sound good and they do immediately announce even to the less than knowledgeable average Joe that your car is clearly an imposter if there ever was a question at all before the bonnet was raised.

To say that Chebby power is better then Ford power seems to beg the question in what way? Better is clearly subjective as proved by those misguide souls thinking Chebby power is better for a Cobra replica outside of cost. Last I checked the history books the 289 Cobras trounced the Corvettes and the 427 Cobras won 7 SCCA A production titles when the 427 Vettes were long available to the motoring public and racers.

You see you can all romanticize that about how Shelby went to Chevy first, about how some now diluted modern AC company in England is using Chebby power, about how Arntz Cobras used Chebby power, how the Aussies and British use Chebby's (they use Rover engines too and Shelby never went to Land Rover for power)...it all amounts to 0. History is clear as to what happened. We know Chebby turned CS down. We all know CS as a result wanted to blow the Vettes off in the worst way which he did. So therefore putting Chebby power in a Cobra whose first and primary imperative and function historically was to beat Chevy as it's first task is completely antithetical to the essence of a Cobra and defies the history and purpose of the car. Them there is the facts.

Putting Chebby power in a Cobra replica is as antithetical to the essence of what the Cobra is, and what it is supposed to be as putting a Ferrari engine in one.

BeavenWright: Your ire is misplaced. Your ire should be directed at me. Your "insulted"? LOL. Hey, you want to play in this sandbox you better put your big boy pants on. Have you not seen the comments hurled at me and current production Cobras? Were you insulted about those? Likely not. That's OK I understand the dish it out but can't take it mentality here. Further, however to clarify what I said... I have no issue with guys who buy a car based on financial ability and buy the best they can. If it has Chebby power that's fine. The point is that as long as the car shows some effort to replicate the car it is supposed to be replicating beyond the Cobra body shell it is a Cobra replica in my book. If all you can afford is a car with Chebby power that's fine. People do the best they can. I have seen some nice Everett Morrisons with Chebby power. But chances are the car was affordable in large part because it had Chebby power.

Hey you all have your opinions. I have mine and I'm stick'n to it.

Hey Evan,

You mentioned that you had not seen my car in the thread that preceded this one before Jamo had to step in. Here it is and not a lawn chair in sight.
PS this is a Ford engine, but it has to be, it is a real one.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZfrGd1yEIs[/ame]

[REAL 1]

Bruce: post the YouTube link. I couldn't get it to play.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Bruce: post the YouTube link. I couldn't get it to play.

([ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZfrGd1yEIs&noredirect=1[/ame])
([ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_FlIyFaWOc[/ame])

The site converts them, hoping the braces will isolate the link for you if not look up Cobra498 on you tube you can see several video's there including these two.

[BevanWright]

To be honest real1 I don't mind what you think. It would like being angry at a simpleton, ie serves no purpose. It is clear you like real cobras, and like onyx like to rubbish everything else. It must be hard living up to yourown expectations.

[REAL 1]

Bruce: sincerely, thank you very much for posting those links for us. Absolutely spectacular on a number of levels.

It is a thrill to be able to see original Cobras but even more so at speed and on such a historic track. Cobras in their intended and natural habitat. My hat is off to you.

It is more than clear how viciously fast these cars can be and dangerous in novice or foolish hands but how devastating fast in the right hands.

Thank for continuing to use such a valuable piece of automotive history in venues where others can see, appreciate them and still be thrilled by their performance.

Also thank for finally and unequivocally establishing BB superiority for all to see. I lost count of the number of SB your car passed. Next time some silly person asks that BB/SB question I now have video proof. Thanks. ; )

Although not as epoch as your videos if you do a search on Youtube for CSX4206 there is a video of my car. No lawn chairs in sight on my video either.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by BevanWright

To be honest real1 I don't mind what you think. It would like being angry at a simpleton, ie serves no purpose. It is clear you like real cobras, and like onyx like to rubbish everything else. It must be hard living up to yourown expectations.

Thanks for understanding. I don't mind your car is Chebby powered. Seriously. Honest. I'm sorry you feel I rubbish everything else. A review of my posts on this site clearly shows the opposite. It's a free country and people should buy (1) what they can afford and two (2) what they want and makes them happy. The problem comes in when Owners of Chebby powered replicas try and argue That Chebbys somehow properly belong in a Cobra replica and/ or are the better choice. It's like their pissing on your head and claiming it's just raining. But I don't get angry at those guys. Your right. It's like getting angry at simpletons. It serves no purpose. I deal with this same problem with many here on "another" oft raised issue they bring up and can't grasp either. Sad really.

As to living up to my expectations, yes it is a high bar but bit has been met. Thanks.

Cheers.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

Hey Evan,

You mentioned that you had not seen my car in the thread that preceded this one before Jamo had to step in. Here it is and not a lawn chair in sight.
PS this is a Ford engine, but it has to be, it is a real one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZfrGd1yEIs

Great vid Bruce, looks like an "historics race" of some sort, original 289s and 427s? Can you elaborate on the field and how the various cars finished?

[Cobra #3170]

Thank you Evan and AL427BF for your very nice comments, that was shot during practice for the 2012 Monterey Historic races. They had the 50th anniversary of the Cobra and it was the featured mark. Unfortunately I had too big issues (the alternator and a bad lifter) and did not participate in the main race.
I did have the time of my life and got some great memories. It was the largest Cobra race in history and drew cars that people hadn't seen in years. I met some really great people too. I am very glad that I was allowed to participate.

[NewYorkGuy]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zfr...s&noredirect=1)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_FlIyFaWOc)

The site converts them, hoping the braces will isolate the link for you if not look up Cobra498 on you tube you can see several video's there including these two.

wow, that was really cool! Thk u, sir!

[AL427SBF]

Thanks Bruce, sounds like a great time and a memory all of us wish we had.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

...
Also thank for finally and unequivocally establishing BB superiority for all to see. I lost count of the number of SB your car passed. Next time some silly person asks that BB/SB question I now have video proof. Thanks. ; ) ...

Honestly Evan, seeing how we don't know how the cars finished, and that the footage shown was a practice session, I would say you are a tad overzealous in your conclusion eh?

BTW, I would expect in an Historics race that the 427s would fair better than the 289s, that is why the 427s were built in the 1st place.

But herein lies the rub. I trust you know who Bob Bondaurant is? A racing legend of these cars and with his own racing school. Well, if you do a little digging my "learned colleague", you will find that Bob was one of the first to say that the 351 Windsor made for a better balanced Cobra in racing. You should also "know", being the well read aficionado of cobras you claim to be, that when Shelby introduced their spec racing Cobra a few years back, it was a 427 body with a 351 Windsor in it. So either Mr. Bondaurant and the Shelby team are clueless on such matters, or you are - which is it?

[Thor maine]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Ok, back by popular demand here I am.

Yes, of course I ruin threads. Yes of course I reiterate the same thing over and over. But you left out the other half of the equation. The same threads and questions continue to pop up and be asked. As facts don't change naturally my responses never change. Threads are ruined not because of me. You give me too much credit. Threads are ruined when those with personal opinions different from fact get their panties in a wad and want reality to comport with their own little reality/opinions.

BTW I agree with ALSBF427 100% on the BB vs. SB thread. Moreover, I don't see where he said anything inflammatory nor is he close to being a "troll".

You see there are facts then there are personal opinions. Facts don't change but personal opinions vary like snowflakes and are always subject to change and modification.

Onyxrider's posts tend to be somewhat cryptic. Although he clearly used the "Chebby" topic to get in a shot at current production Cobras with his "own opinion", that's fine. He is clearly entitled to his opinion. Just like a$$holes everyone has one. No issue with his opinion at all as that's all it is and means 0 to anyone but him and less then 0 to me.

On the Chebby topic I offer the following....To me it's simple. Chevy power in a Cobra replica is heresy. To be a Cobra proponent and advocate and then to actively put Chevy power in your "Cobra" replica is heresy on a number of levels.

You car still qualifies as a "Cobra replica" to me provided there is some effort beyond a Cobra look a like shell such as hardware and/or gauges and/or trim etc...Although, SAAC's definition gets you in to the "replica" category even if you have peddle power, Camry gauges, F150 Wheels and pogo sticks for suspension my OPINION departs from that of SAAC's. My standard is a little higher so all of you knocking SAAC to get at me may want to re-think your positions. In short, you have your opinion about my car I have my opinion about yours.

There is no question in any sane persons mind who has even an inkling of knowledge about this hobby and what a Cobra is that Chebby power is a major deduction in value and attractiveness to others including on resale (except those looking at the bottom end of the "Cobra replica" market due to finances), at car shows or anywhere else on this planet except obviously to the misguided who consciously made the self destructive decision to put a Chebby in their car.

Chebby power does have it's advantages. True. They are cheap. They are as plentiful as cow chit in a pasture. Any Pep Boys will likely have what you need. They do sound good and they do immediately announce even to the less than knowledgeable average Joe that your car is clearly an imposter if there ever was a question at all before the bonnet was raised.

To say that Chebby power is better then Ford power seems to beg the question in what way? Better is clearly subjective as proved by those misguide souls thinking Chebby power is better for a Cobra replica outside of cost. Last I checked the history books the 289 Cobras trounced the Corvettes and the 427 Cobras won 7 SCCA A production titles when the 427 Vettes were long available to the motoring public and racers.

You see you can all romanticize that about how Shelby went to Chevy first, about how some now diluted modern AC company in England is using Chebby power, about how Arntz Cobras used Chebby power, how the Aussies and British use Chebby's (they use Rover engines too and Shelby never went to Land Rover for power)...it all amounts to 0. History is clear as to what happened. We know Chebby turned CS down. We all know CS as a result wanted to blow the Vettes off in the worst way which he did. So therefore putting Chebby power in a Cobra whose first and primary imperative and function historically was to beat Chevy as it's first task is completely antithetical to the essence of a Cobra and defies the history and purpose of the car. Them there is the facts.

Putting Chebby power in a Cobra replica is as antithetical to the essence of what the Cobra is, and what it is supposed to be as putting a Ferrari engine in one.

BeavenWright: Your ire is misplaced. Your ire should be directed at me. Your "insulted"? LOL. Hey, you want to play in this sandbox you better put your big boy pants on. Have you not seen the comments hurled at me and current production Cobras? Were you insulted about those? Likely not. That's OK I understand the dish it out but can't take it mentality here. Further, however to clarify what I said... I have no issue with guys who buy a car based on financial ability and buy the best they can. If it has Chebby power that's fine. The point is that as long as the car shows some effort to replicate the car it is supposed to be replicating beyond the Cobra body shell it is a Cobra replica in my book. If all you can afford is a car with Chebby power that's fine. People do the best they can. I have seen some nice Everett Morrisons with Chebby power. But chances are the car was affordable in large part because it had Chebby power.

Hey you all have your opinions. I have mine and I'm stick'n to it.

Real 1 is right "everyone has an A$$HOLE" I think we just heard from one.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Thanks Bruce, sounds like a great time and a memory all of us wish we had.



Honestly Evan, seeing how we don't know how the cars finished, and that the footage shown was a practice session, I would say you are a tad overzealous in your conclusion eh?

BTW, I would expect in an Historics race that the 427s would fair better than the 289s, that is why the 427s were built in the 1st place.

But herein lies the rub. I trust you know who Bob Bondaurant is? A racing legend of these cars and with his own racing school. Well, if you do a little digging my "learned colleague", you will find that Bob was one of the first to say that the 351 Windsor made for a better balanced Cobra in racing. You should also "know", being the well read aficionado of cobras you claim to be, that when Shelby introduced their spec racing Cobra a few years back, it was a 427 body with a 351 Windsor in it. So either Mr. Bondaurant and the Shelby team are clueless on such matters, or you are - which is it?

Why would they use an FE based engine when they were trying to control costs. A Windsor is much cheaper to produce and in the case of a spec series they are not trying to produce the fastest car just equal cars at the lowest cost. You have to remember that this is all about the money not making the greatest race cars possible. Shelby's aluminum block is about 6k to start with, you could probably build a small block for close to that at volume. I don't have the numbers at my finger tips but suspect an aluminum FE is probably within 70 pounds of a big inch aluminum small block. You would have to be Lewis Hamilton to notice that difference in dynamic handling. I think they are all good, and it just comes down to what the owner wants in his car.

[Jamo]

Thanks folks for keeping it to a low rumble. Couple of things...

Thor...stop calling Evan an asshole.

Evan...stop being an asshole.

Thanks! Much appreciated.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

Why would they use an FE based engine when they were trying to control costs. A Windsor is much cheaper to produce and in the case of a spec series they are not trying to produce the fastest car just equal cars at the lowest cost. You have to remember that this is all about the money not making the greatest race cars possible. Shelby's aluminum block is about 6k to start with, you could probably build a small block for close to that at volume. I don't have the numbers at my finger tips but suspect an aluminum FE is probably within 70 pounds of a big inch aluminum small block. You would have to be Lewis Hamilton to notice that difference in dynamic handling. I think they are all good, and it just comes down to what the owner wants in his car.

Somewhere on this forum is another lively debate on the subject. I forget who said it, but another racer with much experience said in so many words the road course guys always ask what's under the hood with the winners and that's where you see SBFs. If you're into authenticity then go with the 427 SO. This particular individual mentioned a 3 man group including Bondaurant, I forget their club name, but they toured the US giving driving shows to the public because of their notoriety.

[Thor maine]

I am very sorry. That is just me and my Walmart shopping Chevy in my HotRod that is shaped like a Cobra, while Real 1 with his genuine Shelby replica shops at Saks Fifth Ave. Is this being turned into a class war?

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Thanks folks for keeping it to a low rumble. Couple of things...

Thor...stop calling Evan an asshole.

Evan...stop being an asshole.

Thanks! Much appreciated.

lmao .....

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Thanks folks for keeping it to a low rumble. Couple of things...

Thor...stop calling Evan an asshole.

Evan...stop being an asshole.

Thanks! Much appreciated.

Posts like this are what keeps me coming back here. Priceless.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

I forget who said it, but another racer with much experience said in so many words the road course guys always ask what's under the hood with the winners and that's where you see SBFs. If you're into authenticity then go with the 427 SO.

Give it a rest. Your position is well-documented as Evan's position on the topic of "real vs. replica." It's boring and threads get closed.

[Jamo]

A twinge of nastiness will also get them closed...

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Thanks Bruce, sounds like a great time and a memory all of us wish we had.



Honestly Evan, seeing how we don't know how the cars finished, and that the footage shown was a practice session, I would say you are a tad overzealous in your conclusion eh?

BTW, I would expect in an Historics race that the 427s would fair better than the 289s, that is why the 427s were built in the 1st place.

But herein lies the rub. I trust you know who Bob Bondaurant is? A racing legend of these cars and with his own racing school. Well, if you do a little digging my "learned colleague", you will find that Bob was one of the first to say that the 351 Windsor made for a better balanced Cobra in racing. You should also "know", being the well read aficionado of cobras you claim to be, that when Shelby introduced their spec racing Cobra a few years back, it was a 427 body with a 351 Windsor in it. So either Mr. Bondaurant and the Shelby team are clueless on such matters, or you are - which is it?

Rodknock: I fail to see why you are getting your panties in a bunch. AL427SBF makes some good points. This is a discussion no?

Bob Bondarawho?

The 427 was created to supersede the 289 in FIA competition. We all know what happened. However, the 427 chassis was superior in design to the 289 and it's power clearly eclipsed the 289. It ended up competing in the SCCA instead of the FIA and won 7 A production titles up through 1972 if I recall. Not bad not only in the number of titles but the fact that it collected them all the way up to 1972. Certainly acquits the 427 as a competent performer on road courses in the right hands. How it would have fair in the FIA on the longer Euro circuits is anyone's speculation.

It is rumored that Shelby wanted to go with a smaller block for the 427 but Ford wanted the 427SO front and center. We know who controlled the purse strings. No doubt that the bigger the block and rotating mass especially in those days meant more weight and effort to rev. I don't need to be an engine builder to appreciate basic physics.

But todays technology not only allows smaller engines to put out more power but bigger blocks to do so with less weight. But weight reduction and power always mean more $$$.

Yes, I am aware that the spec series Shelby's used 351's. Not sure if it was due to the expense factor as opposed to weight since the aluminum Shelby 427 was available and does not weigh much more but is substantially more expensive to build and repair. Blow a 351W and maybe you lost a $10,000.00 motor. Lose an aluminum 427 Shelby motor you lost anywhere between $30,000 to $35,000.00.

Both SB and BB have their pluses and minuses as with most things in life. I like them both. If I was doing an 289 Cobra it would be a 289 or 351. Right motor with plenty of power. In a 427 Cobra body, sorry but it just needs that BB. It just does, then everything is right with the universe.