Carroll Shelby and the "left over frames" saga?

[hinoonaz]

I noticed an Lone Star entry from SAAAC. No noun calling, just curious as to what type of Cobra, GT40 or ?. txs

[bret a ewing]

NFYG..........be careful with implications tied to the Kirkhams, they are our friends.

[AL427SBF]

razerwire, that's a little over the top. If you take what nyg has to say that seriously, then you are too sensitive to his "opinions" which is all they are. Most posts on this forum are just opinions. If something hits you sideways, you have the right to voice your opinion. The admins are doing a good job moderating this forum, anyone will get the boot or reprimanded if they step over the line. You need to weigh posts according to their content as well as credibility of the poster. If you can't do that, then I think any public forum where freedom of speech is valued will be a problem for you.

[rodneym]

There's A LOT of BS buffoonery in these parts lately, as in trolling, dubious questions, etc. And not just from one person.

It reminds me of those "We never landed on the Moon" websites. You have idiots flaming, who have never taken a physics class, casting shadows on what they can't grasp or want to believe.

Most questions will be covered in the Registry. No, it's not 110% perfect but it's by far the standard, and it's a pretty cheap investment, too. What's time worth, anyway?

There are a few people here whose word is gospel, and they've been keeping a low profile in some of these threads...

[dallas_]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

You need to weigh posts according to their content as well as credibility of the poser.

Fixed it for ya.

[AL427SBF]

Correction accepted lol.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by hinoonaz

I noticed an Lone Star entry from SAAAC. No noun calling, just curious as to what type of Cobra, GT40 or ?. txs

That must be a mistake, because there are no entries in the SAAC Registry for replicas made by Lone Star.

Bret, Kirkham Cobras are listed in the Registry and maybe that's why the Kirkham name was mentioned.

I do find that NYG's introduction to Mr. Shelby and Cobra's was via the Eleanor Mustang ironic, since SAAC not only will not recognize them due to their lack of Shelby heritage, but even the SAAC membership mocks them and finds them contemptible.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

Does anyone know the facts about Shelby claiming that he 'found' some left over Cobra frames from the 1960-70s? Supposedly in the 1990s, Carroll reproduced Cobras with McClusky LTD. and sold them as 'originals'? Also read an article that Kirkhams were somehow involved? Do these 'reproduced' Cobras sell for high dollar?

I don't see anything wrong with his question - appears to just be trying to fill in some blanks. I have several old cars and thus my own knowledge of Cobras is a little shallow. But I also know a reasonable bit about Corvette and Mopar history and background too. I actually was thinking the CSX 4000 cars were the "found chassis" cars - silly me. Not everyone can know everything about something unless it is their one and only sole passion.

[RodKnock]

Personally, the OP should just perform a search or buy a Registry. The story has been told countless times over and over again. And I'll probably get it wrong, since I'm not a historian.

The Shelby Cobra's in question are considered "completion" cars with CSX3000 (not CSX4000's) numbers, issued with unused Comp s/n's from the 60's. Shelby began re-making 427S/Cs in the early 90's and assigning those numbers and selling each car for $500K. Around the same time when original values were climbing rapidly. There's a tangled story with CA DMV and thus only a handful were built. These cars cannot be legally registered in CA since they were NOT delivered as "component" or "kit car" like they are today by SAI. Theses cars were finished by the manufacturer and delivered to customers completed which is a "no no" in CA, since they do not meet Federal safety and emission standards.

Their value is somewhere between the current CSX 4000/6000 replicas and the real genuine original 1960's Cobra's. They are considered an outstanding hand-made aluminum replica built by Mike McCluskey.

[bret a ewing]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

............Bret, Kirkham Cobras are listed in the Registry and maybe that's why the Kirkham name was mentioned.............

Yes they are, I've purchased one new from the brothers.


My point is, including the Kirkhams in the same jaded storyline as the "Completion Cobras" is inconsiderate and possibly confusing to the folks unaware of the event.

From what I gather from his prior thread, the OP is an inteligent individual.
Research on this subject is simple and the information extensive.
A minimal amount of due diligence would have gone far in the effort to
start the thread on the right track. On the outset this looked to be more of a forum-bomb than an innocent history question.
............and of course all the above is IMHO.

[OnyxRider]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

My words. Is there a more or equally recognized authoritative work that catalogs these cars, tracks them, provides detailed history on the cars in general and specific and sets out definitions for use by prospective purchasers and is the combined work of many with years of experience and knowledge?
There are other good books on the subject of Cobras but none that do or attempt to do what it has been doing for decades and is to my knowledge widely accepted as Bible and go to reference on all things Cobra and on these cars both general and specific.

Case in point. Rodknocks referral even though there are other writtings on the subject.

Holy smoke....

With all that time spent composing that...you could have answered NYG's question in detail with pics and graphics.

[razerwire]

AL 427 SBF Thank you. nyg thread was intended to get a knee jerk reaction, and due to recent circumstances my knee jerked. I take my 20 lashes and thank you for it. It was over the top.

[OnyxRider]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Personally, the OP should just perform a search or buy a Registry. The story has been told countless times over and over again. And I'll probably get it wrong, since I'm not a historian.

The Shelby Cobra's in question are considered "completion" cars with CSX3000 (not CSX4000's) numbers, issued with unused Comp s/n's from the 60's. Shelby began re-making 427S/Cs in the early 90's and assigning those numbers and selling each car for $500K. Around the same time when original values were climbing rapidly. There's a tangled story with CA DMV and thus only a handful were built. These cars cannot be legally registered in CA since they were NOT delivered as "component" or "kit car" like they are today by SAI. Theses cars were finished by the manufacturer and delivered to customers completed which is a "no no" in CA, since they do not meet Federal safety and emission standards.

Their value is somewhere between the current CSX 4000/6000 replicas and the real genuine original 1960's Cobra's. They are considered an outstanding hand-made aluminum replica built by Mike McCluskey.

What you say is true....however....

Shelby did lie about stating he had some left over tubs stashed somewhere. Since the originals were made in the 60's Shelby tried to get California to recognize the paperwork for 60's Cobras. Shelby was asked by the state of California for an affidavit or notarized statement that he did in fact have tubs from the 60's. Shelby didn't want to commit perjury or a false statement so he let things drop. Cobras were being made by McClusky as new Cobras.

One time Shelby got caught with his pants down.


I guess no one wants to get into the details....

"And then there was the time that Shelby said he had found some original, unused 1960's-era Cobra frames in a field. With those original VIN tags he could build new Cobras in the eighties that didn't have to meet the current crash and emission regulations. He was trying to get around some regulatory loophole, but still, what a tale. He had a bit of Smokey Yunick in him—an attitude like, "It ain't cheating if you don't get caught." But who can argue with what he achieved? "


http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...shelby-8868916


At the time to race you had to have 100 autos built in order to race it. So Shelby had serial numbers CSX3001-3100 but could not build the 100 in time. So he had the left over CSX numbers that were never used.


This may not be one of those Cobras....1966 AC Cobra 427 SC for sale | Hemmings Motor News


Now you mention Eleanor that is a whole 'nother can of worms I know just a little about.

[Mike I]

I vaguely remember reading several magazine articles back in the 90's highlighting a heated dispute between Shelby and Brian Angliss who was running Autokraft at the time. Angliss was very critical of Shelby's claims about "left over" chassis from AC cars. He said AC never produced or shipped bare chassis's to the US.

Angliss was apparently in possession of the original handwritten chronologic AC records outlining all mfg and shipment dates for cobras destined for the US.

Seemed to be some very bad blood between the two. Never was clear to me if something else precipitated the hard feelings, or just the alledged "fraudulent" claims by Shelby.

I'm sure I still have the old magazines with the articles, maybe I'll dig through them...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by OnyxRider

What you say is true....however....

Shelby did lie about stating he had some left over tubs stashed somewhere. Since the originals were made in the 60's Shelby tried to get California to recognize the paperwork for 60's Cobras. Shelby was asked by the state of California for an affidavit or notarized statement that he did in fact have tubs from the 60's. Shelby didn't want to commit perjury or a false statement so he let things drop. Cobras were being made by McClusky as new Cobras.

One time Shelby got caught with his pants down.


I guess no one wants to get into the details....



This may be one of those Cobras....1966 AC Cobra 427 SC for sale | Hemmings Motor News


Now you mention Eleanor that is a whole 'nother can of worms I know just a little about.

I was just trying to keep it VERY simple so this thread wouldn't devolve into crap. There are threads and pages about this story here on CC and in the SAAC Registry. I just wanted to give the OP a brief summary.

[NewYorkGuy]

Originally Posted by razerwire

nyg has the buffoonery gig down pretty good, its entertainment? Goes beyond that. He knew answer before he asked, he used words like "found" "original" "reproduced" in question to draw others into his cyber Bullying. Cyber bullying refers to any harassment that occurs via the internet, cell phone, or other devices. Communication technology is used to intentionally harm others through hostile behavior such as sending text messages and posting ugly comments on the internet to hurt or embarrass another person. Cyber-bullying could be limited to posting rumors or gossips about a person in the internet bringing about hatred in other's minds; or it may go to the extent of personally identifying victims and publishing materials severely defaming and humiliating them. This site could be involved in a lawsuit such has happened to other forums. I would remove this whole post because its not "entertaining".

cyber bullying? lol. U can click ignore.

[Rick Parker]

My Read....The early 90's was nearing a peak of the 1st wave of replicas for the Cobras. There had been MANY makers in and out of the industry some good some BAD and Shelby had returned from his exploits in Africa looking for another adventure and decided much like he did at the original launch of the Cobra to spin another web regarding having many available but with another twist. His Heart foundation became a focus for him and he used it as a benificiary from the atificially swelled up prices ($500K) for which the "newly found continuation cars were going to (hopefully) be sold. As stated California would not proceed with continuation VIN's and shortly the "Bloom was off the Flower" and he had to realign himself with the "REAL" world. That being said; the OEM 60's Cobras have their own flavor which we all cherish, and the current Shelby cars are some of the best available. After all he originated our Hobby.... didn't he?

He was the ultimate Salesman, and everyone here has the hook in their mouth to prove it

[NewYorkGuy]

Originally Posted by bret a ewing

NFYG..........be careful with implications tied to the Kirkhams, they are our friends.

No, I am not.

I read an article that the Kirkhams supplied the alum bodies to these 'continutation' chassis.

http://automotivethinker.com/general...at-89-so-what/

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

cyber bullying? lol. U can click ignore.

Well, your 1st couple or few weeks on CC have definitely been entertaining. Some may label you as a bully or troll. I think you're attempting to gain some knowledge and be a good citizen.

However, just a few of your "highlights" that I can remember have been calling our Cobras "fakes" or "hot rods shaped like Cobra's", owners have "stigmas" in our minds because we own a fake, Cobra's smell like a chimney's, the suburbs are bad, maybe because you live in big NYC, the Cobra's future will be in the "junkyard," or telling folks their Cobras are junk because they didn't spend $100,000-$200,000 on a Kirkham or Shelby, etc., etc.

Some folks may take offense to it and maybe prefer not to click ignore. Rather they would prefer you go away. I'd file you under "entertaining."

Certainly installing a Cadillac CTS-V (or whatever) in a replica or "Have you vinyl wrapped your fake?" are always good for a laugh from me at least.

[NewYorkGuy]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Well, your 1st couple or few weeks on CC have definitely been entertaining. Some may label you as a bully or troll. I think you're attempting to gain some knowledge and be a good citizen.

However, just a few of your "highlights" that I can remember have been calling our Cobras "fakes" or "hot rods shaped like Cobra's", owners have "stigmas" in our minds because we own a fake, Cobra's smell like a chimney's, the suburbs are bad, maybe because you live in big NYC, the Cobra's future will be in the "junkyard," or telling folks their Cobras are junk because they didn't spend $100,000-$200,000 on a Kirkham or Shelby, etc., etc.

Some folks may take offense to it and maybe prefer not to click ignore. Rather they would prefer you go away. I'd file you under "entertaining."

Certainly installing a Cadillac CTS-V (or whatever) in a replica or "Have you vinyl wrapped your fake?" are always good for a laugh from me at least.

Where I live presently is not a big deal. I also live in LA and some weeks in Chi-town and Miami. Home is home.

They are all fakes unless u have the real thing and the best of the fakes are Kirks and CSX. I don't see many owners going from Kirkham to FFR, unless they hit a financial crisis or family divorce.

I am building a hot rod shaped like a Cobra and that is the true. It won't have any Cobra badges and I won't call it anything else but a hot rod, maybe a rat-rod with Mad Max touches.

Nothing wrong with a Chevy, Caddy or olsmobile engine in a hot rod. Paint? Why bother. Just vinyl wrap or plastic dip. It is just a toy.