Hillbanks Pricing

[kanuck]

I have no dog in this hunt, but still like to stay on top of things,
is this a California thing, do they actually sell at these prices,
or am I missing something, inquiring minds want to know,
this is not a slam in any form or fashion, I just could not help
but notice price difference on other comparable cobras.

Dean

[CSX4815]

Originally Posted by kanuck

I have no dog in this hunt, but still like to stay on top of things,
is this a California thing, do they actually sell at these prices,
or am I missing something, inquiring minds want to know,
this is not a slam in any form or fashion, I just could not help
but notice price difference on other comparable cobras.

Dean

Not sure I understand your question. Have you been down to Hillbank lately? The place is packed with new cars.

Not trying to take sides here but if you take into account the inventory on the floor, they have to be selling these cars at whatever the current price. Lance has been in business for a long time and I am sure he is not stupid. You can say what you want about the man but he is a smart and successful businessman. Given the operating overhead in Irvine today I don't think he would be stocking that amount of inventory if he isn't selling them.

[SunDude]

Hillbank sold SP01119 within ONE DAY of listing it on Cobra Country at an asking price of $64,950. I should think they have a good handle on current market pricing for SPF and CSX Cobras.

[kanuck]

There used prices on cobra country are like 10 of thousands more than other comparable superformance cobras.

Dean

[Cashburn]

Originally Posted by kanuck

There used prices on cobra country are like 10 of thousands more than other comparable superformance cobras.

Dean

Comparable to what? A private party sale?

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by SunDude

Hillbank sold SP01119 within ONE DAY of listing it on Cobra Country at an asking price of $64,950. I should think they have a good handle on current market pricing for SPF and CSX Cobras.

If this is true, then maybe they don't.
Maybe should have listed for a few grand more...

[eschaider]

While not the manufacturer the relationship between Hillbank / Superformance / Hi-Tech Automotive is obviously quite close. Manufacturers, front line retailers and market acceptance literally set the price for new vehicle purchases. We watch Detroit do this dance every year. Remember (if you are old enough) when you could buy Mustangs with 271 HP 289's for mid $3K pricing, usually less. Check out the price tag on a GT500 today.

It has been a relatively long time since a significant price increase has occurred in the Cobra replica community. There have been several individual manufacturers (like SPF) that have increased price. Whether you are looking at a kit or a roller I suspect replica prices are about to increase and probably will continue to do so for a while, testing new market highs.

Don't forget the originals were mid to low $6K prices with an engine. Who would have forecasted replica rollers would go for high $40's low $50's only 40 years later. Add basically another ten years, the impact of inflation, mystique of the car and availability of interested buyers who see value at the higher price. They all combine to raise the ante at the poker table.

If you are a current owner, as they say, a rising tide lifts all ships. If you are an interested potential buyer it means it is better to buy sooner than later — at least in terms of the hit to your wallet, the additional seat time and corresponding enjoyment you can have driving the car.

We are watching a relatively normal step up in the value for a replica of an automotive classic. Remember when you used to be able to build one of these cars for 50₵ on the dollar compared to today. Hell of a deal relatively speaking. They will only cost more going forward in time. If you currently have one of these cars this sort of price increase translates across to currently owned vehicles like yours, so there is some good news for present owners also — at least until you go to replace your current ride.


Ed

[SunDude]

FYI ~ I've updated my old thread about SPF resale prices, in case you're interested: So, what do you think your SPF is worth?

[Ron61]

Brian,

Don't forget that any Cobra or SPCN vehicle which has the SB-100 number is going to have a few hundred added onto the price here in California. It isn't as much as it used to be as they still have numbers for much of the year now and they used to run out before noon on January 2nd. So that really added to the price here in this state.

Ron

[madmaxx]

For 95% of SPF sellers asking below $60k for their used SPF's I would recommend consigning their SPF'swith Hillbanks. You will end up with more money than if you sale it yourself even after their commision. The average Joe feels great about giving money to a dealer as opposed to an individual. Hillbanks also has a global reach.

I have sold my share of Cobra's and usually talk to much. A dealer has a distict advantage over an individual in that the dealer salesman does do not know the car. They drive it 1 mile and say it runs perfect, and it did for a mile, oh and by the way it is $30k more to duplicate this car new. An individual drives his own car for 100's if not thousands of miles and know every gremlin which they tell potential buyers and the buyers run to the "perfect" condition car only later to find out after purchase it isnt so "perfect". In the end they pay a $8k-15K premium going through a dealer and are happy to do it for the feel of "insurance" which does not exist on a used car.

[Cashburn]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

For 95% of SPF sellers asking below $60k for their used SPF's I would recommend consigning their SPF'swith Hillbanks. You will end up with more money than if you sale it yourself even after their commision. The average Joe feels great about giving money to a dealer as opposed to an individual. Hillbanks also has a global reach.

I have sold my share of Cobra's and usually talk to much. A dealer has a distict advantage over an individual in that the dealer salesman does do not know the car. They drive it 1 mile and say it runs perfect, and it did for a mile, oh and by the way it is $30k more to duplicate this car new. An individual drives his own car for 100's if not thousands of miles and know every gremlin which they tell potential buyers and the buyers run to the "perfect" condition car only later to find out after purchase it isnt so "perfect". In the end they pay a $8k-15K premium going through a dealer and are happy to do it for the feel of "insurance" which does not exist on a used car.

Pile of steaming **** right there...

[mrmustang]

As someone who has bought, sold, brokered more than my fair share of all make and model Cobra replicas, and does not have a dog in this hunt, I'll post the following, openly, honestly, and ethically (you guys do remember what ethics in this hobby is about, right).........

The issue with Hillbank (and their principal ownership conflicts of interest) as I see it is you have one manufacturer attempting to artificially manipulate the market for their used product(s). This is not a new concept and has been attempted before, the problem being that while it is wonderful for the current owners of the cars, it now takes advantage of the next set of owners of those same cars, who then soon realize what has happened once they have open access to the closed forums. It's not rocket science, but sooner or later someone will piss off the wrong buyer, and the lawsuits will fly. it is not a matter of if this scenario will happen, but when it will happen after the artificial market has collapsed...

I'll leave it at that.

Bill S.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

...but sooner or later someone will piss off the wrong buyer, and the lawsuits will fly. it is not a matter of if this scenario will happen, but when it will happen after the artificial market has collapsed...

I'll leave it at that.

Bill S.

Sorry Bill, with all due respect sir... I don't seem to be able to follow...
Can you explain this to me like I'm a 7yr old.
PM if it's easier...

If I buy something at an inflated price due to whatever reason (conflict of interest or not), surely as long as the item isn't misrepresented, then what grounds do I have to complain about my own lack of due diligence?

I'm concussed.

[eschaider]

Good points Bill, but in an arm's length transaction where a little research on the part of the buyer can turn up most anything that is out there about these cars, it might just be more than a little difficult to prevail in that sort of action.

I think that the burden of proof with respect to a fraud would be, not impossible but, a very steep hill to climb. It is further aggravated by the fact that, like Detroit, a manufacturer and a retailer are at liberty to place their pricing models as high as they choose to. The presumption is that a free market will ultimately determine the real value, rewarding those who price prudently and punishing those who succumbed to greed.


Ed

[gsharapa]

Well I have bought and sold 6 Cobras over the last 18 years and I didn't feel like I was getting cheated when my first SPF roller was $32K, then the next $36K and then $38K, Kirkham more and so on. Do you think the guys buying the Ford GTs at $ 230-$300K feel cheated that the guys they are buying them from paid $ 159-$180K. Comes down to supply and demand. As long as the new SPFs, Kirkham's, Shelby's and so on keep moving higher in price and people are buying them then the overall prices will keep moving up. I always thought there were a ton of buyers out there for cars $60K and down but then very limited above that. This seems to have moved up to much higher now as even at the auctions you see all replicas doing quite well. I know we all watch Cobracountry and they all seem to be selling. I've been kicking around buying a SPF or CAV GT40 and this is another example of how fast these cars have gone up in price. SPFs rollers were $65K not too many years ago and now $105K for a roller. There does seem to be ceilings however as I noticed the SPF GT40s completed cars were selling fast at $ 100-$120K but now moving up to $135-$149K there are several that have been for sale for months and months. At the end of the day it is always about having a nice car someone or a couple people want to buy!

[madmaxx]

The reason used SPF increase in value is because the builder SPF increases the prices on rollers. As the years roll by before you know it a new one is 10k more than your roller cost. The unique characteristic of Cobra replica is they don't change. All features remain the same.

I don't see anybody violating any anti-trust laws. If I was a owner looking to sell your enemy is demographics. The majority of potential buyer I have dealt with are 65plus, in 5 years there may be a glut of replicas on the market, to much supply to little demand.

[Mark IV]

I would argue that the market prices are not set by the seller but rather the buyers. It is the same with used cars of the garden variety.....the dealers do not set the values, it is the purchasers that set the price. If they will pay more, then the dealer asking prices will rise.......if they will pay less, the asking price will drop. It is "econ 101" in action. The buyer pays according the perceived value. Add in a little "woody" factor and there you have the "Kelly Blue Book" for used "Cobra" prices. Although as anyone in the auto business will tell you "the book never bought or sold a car", it is only a reporting means for previous sales.

[Igofastr]

Mark IV,

+1

The market sets the price. Econ 101, as you say.

[66gtk]

I agree with supply and demand, but that's not the whole story here. I don't have any facts or data, but let's just say that the market demand for "Widget A" is $50K. Let's also then presume that I sell these widgets regularly and that is pretty much the market value that I'm aware of. If I have a good corner of this market with little competition would it be ethical to attempt to drive up the value by advertising said widget for $65K knowing that most will probably end up selling for $50K? After all, if the public sees my advertised price at $65K repeatedly enough perhaps the public will think that's the value/price? Only the select few who end up actually purchasing are aware of the "real" price. There may eventually be enough people to bite at the advertised price due to repeated exposure at the advertisements that this may become the new "real" price and then I can start advertising for $70K....

I'm not saying this process is illegal or unethical. But it does remind me of the retails shops who routinely have 50% off sales multiple times each year (or even weekly). We have to be smart shoppers whether we are purchasing cars or toasters. The problem with our Cobras is that the market is so tiny and so specialized it's difficult to shop real prices vs retail (or over retail) prices without inside information that we are generally not privy to.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Igofastr

Mark IV,

+1

The market sets the price. Econ 101, as you say.

True, unless of course, there's collusion amongst manufacturers and dealers. Collusion is more commonly seen in markets or industries where there are a limited number of sellers, say for example, like Cobra manufacturers. Although I'm not saying there's any evidence of collusion in the Cobra manufacturing industry and dealer network. That's Econ 101 too.