Installing a new Canton pan - Do I still need the windage tray???

[mjhcobra]

Hi Guys,

I am installing a new 820 Canton oil pan on my FE 428. Should I still install the windage tray that I was using with the stock pan or does this new pan control the oil well enough with out the tray?

[Tom Wells]

mjhcobra,

Dunno about the 428. On the 460, the Canton pan, even with the baffles, spring-loaded trap doors and scrapers that are built into it, it didn't work. On the track the oil pressure went to zero in turns requiring me to ultimately install an Accusump in order to prevent expensive failures due to no oil pressure.

I asked Canton at PRI whether they had any data or testing to support their claims that their pan is a "road race" pan as they advertise it. They said they had no test results or data to support their claim...

Don't know about the 428 pan. I'd be very very careful if you do a track day. Keep an eye on the oil pressure in the turns. Mine would sometimes fluctuate the oil pressure if I did the zig-zag "tire warming" maneuver you see on NASCAR tracks, even if I did it on the street at relatively low speed.

Also be sure to measure and verify the vertical distance between the bottom of the pan and the oil pickup which on my engine is 3/8". Try not to deviate too far from that spec, and don't forget to include the thickness of the pan gasket.

Tom

[Tim7139]

They are supposed to have the windage tray. I would investigate whether yours will work or you should install theirs to go with their pan.
Street use may not absolutely require it but I never heard of a downside.

[Ron61]

I ran a windage tray on both of my cars and the 69 came from the factory with one. Never had any problems with losing oil pressure in the turns when I used to race.

Ron

[blykins]

No, you don't need the tray.

[Tim7139]

Originally Posted by blykins;1****06

No, you don't need the tray.

Since, obviously yours is a qualified comment given your expertise, other than nominal cost and an additional gasket, is there ANY downside? When I went trhough a recent gasket switch the tech guys at Canton told me it is highly reccommended by them and he wasn't trying to sell one as I already had it in place.

[blykins]

Nah, I guess not. You gotta watch pickup to pan clearance if you add one. Just one more thing to try and seal up as well...

[55312]

FIW - When I put a Canton RR "T" pan on my 427, it came with the windage tray and the appropriate pickup that went with the tray and pan. It leaked but I blamed the Canton stud and nut kit that I bought for it not the double gaskets. Never could keep the nuts tight so I went back to ARP bolts and no more leaks.

Tim

[mjhcobra]

Thanks for the comments. I bought the Canton pickup when I bought the 820 pan several months ago. I pulled the motor to take care of some other issues and figured it would be a good time to install the pan. I picked up a Mellings M57HV oil pump today since the pan is off and I had the stock pump. Prior to this, I ran the stock pan, windage tray, and stock pan bolts with no leaks. Looks like I will continue with this setup with the new pump, pan, pickup, and stock bolts.

Martin

[blykins]

Measure the pickup/pan clearance while you're in there, just for giggles.

[mjhcobra]

How would you measure the clearance? I assume it would be what was required since Canton made the pan and the pickup.

[blykins]

Never assume that it's right, always assume it's wrong...

You measure by taking a straightedge and tape measure....measure from the pan rail (with gasket) to the pickup. Then measure from the rail on the pan down to the pans sump. Subtract the two and that's your measurement.

[Dwight]

I use Playdough. I put it inside a plastic bag and place it onto the pickup. Install pan. Or just pressure the pan down real hard.
Remove pan, very carefully remove Playdough from bag, take a razor blade and cut thru the center of the Playdough. Then measure.

Dwight

make sure the pickup is parallel with the pan. You don't want one side of the pickup higher than the other. Crooked!

[mjhcobra]

I measured the pickup from the block face and measured the pan to the bottom from the pan face with the windge tray and 2 gaskets and the diff was 3/8".

[blykins]

3/8" is good. The gaskets will compress a little when it's all bolted together.

If you're doing this with the engine in the car, I would get about 4-6 5/16" studs and place them strategically around the pan rail. Glue your gaskets on with Right Stuff or your favorite gasket sealer. Smear a thin layer in between each part of the sandwich to seal. Don't lay beads, as beads will find their way into the crankcase.

On the gasket that goes on closest to the block, look at the rear main cap and make sure the gasket doesn't cover the rear main seal drain. If it does, it could help the chance of a rear main seal leak. Take an X-Acto knife or razor blade and cut out around it. Also, if you're using ARP main studs (and some main bolts), make sure that they don't stick down below the cap far enough to keep the oil pan from sitting against the block. Make sure the windage tray doesn't block the drain or hit on any fasteners as well.

Let everything seal up over night and don't put any oil in it until you're confident it's sealed and dry.

[mjhcobra]

My Engine is out and hanging from a hoist so access is pretty good. I may put a few studs in just to help the alignment. I will check the rear main drain. I put this motor together a long time ago and forgot about the drain.
No problems with bolts before so I should be good this time around.
Thanks for the tips.

[RICK LAKE]

mjhcobra There have been some questionable testing done. On certain motor windage trays really help. In other cases no. Hemi's and FE motors have long side walls where the crank shaft spins and depending on what you are doing with the car, the crank will not whip up the oil like other motors. I do know this that solid lifter and solid rollers need all the oil spray they can get. This is the contact point between the bottom of a flat tappet or roller and camshaft contact spot. New solid lifters, (non roller) now have small holes of .010"-.015" for oiling of the contact location. This extends the life of both surfaces. I used to run solids in other motors and 10-15K miles and the wear was showing and the camshaft had wear issues. We also ran a higher valve lash above spec. This also increases wear at idle. If you are running a canton diamond windage tray, it works more like a scraper and I use this. SIDE note, make sure you can rotate the crank shaft 360 degrees and not hit the windage tray. Mine did and had to be modified. If you are running a roller lifter you can cheat the control of oil spray, flat tappets,I wouldn't. Stroker motor would need to be checked too.
1/4" to 3/8" clearance for pickup is good. I also tack weld the tube to the oil pump. It's a safety issue to protect a $10,000 motor. If you are going to race, pull the oil pump and safety wire the 4 bolts on the bottom of the pump. Also Over fill the motor 1quart of oil. This stops any starvation of the oil getting back to the pan. The oil returns are slow in and FE motor and this helps. It may leak from the rear main seal or may not. Also make sure your dipstick is reading the correct oil level.
Do you have any oiling modes done to the motor?? Mostly the adding of limiters to the heads for the rocker oiling and valve spring cooling. I know some of the guys are running a .060" oriface in both heads. I use a .080" to be safe. It fills the heads with oil and helps cool the valve springs and rockers. Easy way is to add allen screw into the supply hole in the head, tap head, drill hole in middle of screw and inset. Make sure it clears the bolt for the shafts and use the correct bolt or stud for the supply hole.
What oil pump are you running. I would reccomend an HVHP pump with a min of 60# spring. I like 80# better. I race and use #100 psi spring. 15 years of racing and no failures to bottom end of motor. IMO the most important thing is not let the motor idle for long and have a min of 30# of pressure at idle. There is a 10-20 psi loss of pressure from the front of the motor to the back of the motor.
Side notes, if you are running an oiler cooler, add an accusump to the motor. You can use it as both a preoiler before starting the motor,( 85% of motor wear happens on starting a motor and waiting for oil pressure to build ) and if running high "G" turns help maintain oil pressure when the oil is slow to return to the oil pan. This is also the reason for running 1 quart over full. You can use a manual valve or go electrical. Good luck. Rick L.

[Bernica]

There is a lot of info about this and the guys responding are as good as it gets.
I also ran across this that may help. Good luck with the build

Ford FE Engine Oiling System: The Complete Guide

[mjhcobra]

Rick,
While the engine is out I installed a Mellings M57HV high volume oil pump, which replaced the stock Mellings pump. My Cobra will probably not see any track or strip time-just some normal fun on the roads. It is a stock P.I. engine with the CJ cam and hydraulic lifters. No screamer, just fun to drive. I had to have an FE in my Cobra or to me, it would not be a Cobra. I have no idea which spring is in the new Mellings pump and I am not sure how to figure it out.
The windage tray worked fine with the stock pan for clearances, so it will be fine with the Canton. The purpose of the new 7 qt. Canton pan was to add oil to help starvation. From what I read it is actually an 8 qt. pan if you count the filter (Canton 15-820). One of the next things on the list is to add the oil cooler, which I guess means more total oil. I am trying to figure out how to mount the oil cooler and build a shroud for it as well as do the plumbing correctly. Currently all I have it the remote filter in use.
Thanks again for all help.
Martin

[RICK LAKE]

mjhcobra I think we talked and your name was MIke?? Go with the ford tray. Drill some 1/4 holes in the center to help the oil return faster. Hydro lifters are great. I agree with a ford motor in a cobra over others.
For the lines for the oil cooler one goes up the l/s frame and the other loops over in the raditor opening and parrells the other back to the oil housing. Watch out for rubbing of the lines. Use clamps with rubber insolators and screw them to the frame. I think ERA will show you a picture of the lines being routed.
If you call Melling they can tell you what spring is in the oil pump.
What oil are you looking to run? 10-30, 10-40, 15-40, The thicker oil will help keep the psi level up. I also add 1 quart of lucas oil suppliment to the oil. This should be done with the motor running and oil is warm to mix it. Pour it in slow. It has a cligging compound in it. This help prevent dry starts and stops the oil from coming off the metal parts if the motor sits for a week. It will cost a couple of HP but if it help saves a $10,000.00 + motor who cares. Rick L. Ps not 100% sure but I think the HV oil pump comes with a #50 pound spring. The HVHP comes with a 60# spring. You can add a washer behind the spring to get the 60 number. Pull the spring out of the pump and install the washer, reinstall the plug and safety wire it so the plug can't come out or get loose.