Anybody lining up for the new Shelby Cobra?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

The roller that is pictured currently on Shelby's website for the 50th Anniversary 427 was built almost entirely by Kirkham. We even made the Shelby badged hub caps, steering emblem, brake pedal arm, and clutch pedal arm. Other than the logo, all parts are essentially the same as what we make on our current rollers.

Currently, Shelby has bought several rollers from us. The latest Shelby's from us all have our suspension (and just about everything else). The above 427 50th has our latest billet suspension.
David

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

so basically SAI buys a Kirkham alloy ($90K), slaps on Shelby badges, charges double price, and makes the customer wait 18 months? Sounds too good to be true

So, NYG appears to be correct. Well, that sucks.

[Bernica]

You have to make money in any business or you don't get to play.

[rodneym]

Well, they do prep and paint, don't they?
Forget dollars, how much profit (in percentage) would you charge if you were Shelby? 10%? Yeah, right.
And getting a dead guy to sign an MSO is no easy task.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by rodneym

Well, they do prep and paint, don't they?

...

And getting a dead guy to sign an MSO is no easy task.

We have delivered both polished rollers and filed rollers to Shelby.

I personally knew Carroll Shelby pretty well. I also know many people who knew him well. I personally spoke with Carroll and dealt with him for many years.

I also know Joe Conway on a personal basis. He and I think very, very much alike. We have had long talks together. He is a constant improvement guy. It is in his DNA. I can't stress this enough. He is extremely dedicated to improving the Shelby brand and he understands high-quality parts are a bit more expensive. He has never once suggested we cut any corner--anywhere. On the contrary, he always wants to improve. He understands markets, metallurgy, brand, customers, vendors, etc. I quite enjoy working with them.

I would be damn proud to own a Joe Conway signed Shelby MSO. Joe cares.

David

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by rodneym

Well, they do prep and paint, don't they?
Forget dollars, how much profit (in percentage) would you charge if you were Shelby? 10%? Yeah, right.

A file finish Kirkham roller is $80K. A painted alloy Shelby is $160,000. A painted alloy 50th Anniversary Shelby is $180,000.

How much is prep and paint? $20K just for the sake of discussion? Well, whatever the final profit margin, there are buyers who feel the name is worth it and we all know that an alloy Kirkham Cobra or alloy Shelby Cobra are constructed by the best.

[RodKnock]

By the way, it would be awesome if David's post could be make a sticky, so we don't have to keep debating, discussing or even pontificating who does what on a Kirkham versus a Shelby.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

A file finish Kirkham roller is $80K. A painted alloy Shelby is $160,000. A painted alloy 50th Anniversary Shelby is $180,000.

How much is prep and paint? $20K just for the sake of discussion? Well, whatever the final profit margin, there are buyers who feel the name is worth it and we all know that an alloy Kirkham Cobra or alloy Shelby Cobra are constructed by the best.

This old yarn?

My wife's Cartier engagement ring costs more.
Because it's worth more. Because it costs more. Because it's worth more., etc.
If you're a 'diamond district' guy, then you'll never get it.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by rodneym

This old yarn?

My wife's Cartier engagement ring costs more.
Because it's worth more. Because it costs more. Because it's worth more., etc.
If you're a 'diamond district' guy, then you'll never get it.

I'm a "diamond district guy," but then if I had all your money, then I'd burn all mine.

[rodneym]

They keep printing it!
And don't worry about what's going on over at casa de Rodney.
Does the term "going for broke" mean anything to you?

[twobjshelbys]

Thanks David! That clears up alot (and as you said, it changes with time).

In my comment I wasn't thinking as much of frame and suspension parts as body panels. Of course it makes sense that some parts might be interchangeable, even if obtained from different places as they are, by design, second sources.

But can you or can you not take the body panels from one of your Kirkham cars and put them (without adjustments) onto a Shelby version (even if made by you?)

If so then we are making the differentiation between a Lincoln and Ford with same underpinnings and different skins.

Thanks!

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Thanks David! That clears up alot (and as you said, it changes with time).

In my comment I wasn't thinking as much of frame and suspension parts as body panels. Of course it makes sense that some parts might be interchangeable, even if obtained from different places as they are, by design, second sources.

But can you or can you not take the body panels from one of your Kirkham cars and put them (without adjustments) onto a Shelby version (even if made by you?)

If so then we are making the differentiation between a Lincoln and Ford with same underpinnings and different skins.

Thanks!

I understood your comment the same way. When things change over time and it can get confusing. Who knows, tomorrow we may be doing something totally different with Shelby.

The body panels between a Kirkham supplied Shelby and a Kirkham are identical. There is no difference (to us) between a polished, brushed, or filed body. They all start out the same. We just take the next frame and body in line and then file, brush, or polish it (according to whatever the customer wants).

Keep in mind our body panels do not come off the chassis. They body is riveted to the chassis. Another interesting note: Brushing a body is far harder than polishing a body.

David

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Another interesting note: Brushing a body is far harder than polishing a body.

David

Hmmm, why is that? I'd think that there is far more labor/hours involved in going from brush to polish. Just curious.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Hmmm, why is that? I'd think that there is far more labor/hours involved in going from brush to polish. Just curious.

When you brush a car the sanded lines all have to line up and be straight. What is straight on this body? Whenever you stop and start sanding (you have to stop and start sometime) you can always see the tell-tale marks. Remember, there are no fender breaks in the body--it is one, continuous body. It takes exceptional skill to make a brushed car look beautiful. When done properly, they are indeed stunning.

Pat Buckley was the first guy to take one of our machines and make it really nice as a brushed car. It really opened our eyes as to what could be accomplished. He dramatically raised the bar.

Well, the goal posts are ever moving in this game. It wasn't long before a brushed car with brushed "ghost" stripes became a brushed car with polished stripes. One day one of our employees (who now works for Furniture Row Racing) got crazy and said, "Brushed with polished stripes? Why not polished with brushed stripes?" I laughed. Then he did it. It is pretty much how our rides have been known ever since.

David

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

So, NYG appears to be correct. Well, that sucks.

Residing in Arkansas brings to mind the blind hog and the acorn. But I've probably used that refrain to refer to myself all too often.

But, to get back to the original question - I still don't think I've heard anyone say they are putting a down payment down on one of these.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I still don't think I've heard anyone say they are putting a down payment down on one of these.

Not so fast.
We haven't heard from NewYorkGuy or Thor_Maine yet.

[Dimis]

I'm torn... so thinking out loud.

Even ignoring the price issue...

If I'm to believe what I've read, then Shelby (via Joe - Good on him!) are finally trying to "catch up" to Kirkham in terms of what they offer.
Parts of me hope they do.

But no matter what they do (short of buying out Kirkham I guess), they can only ever be a rebadged/branded car of equal, or lesser quality (be it from Kirkham or other). No? Or is this disputable?

Clearly I'm missing something....

[1ntCobra]

Well I guess you cannot expect things to remain the same all of the time. The pictures I posted of the aluminum body/frames in Vegas were from 2006. So that must have been the arrangement at the time, when Amy was still there.

You say, "Currently, Shelby has bought several rollers from us." Several does not sound like a lot. Have they switched to just buying rollers now and that is a recent change? Or do you just occasionally sell them rollers and still supply them with just frame/body for the typical case?

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

That depends entirely upon the roller. Who did what to whom changed dramatically over the years.

The roller that is pictured currently on Shelby's website for the 50th Anniversary 427

Shelby American Inc. - 50th Anniversary 427 Cobra

was built almost entirely by Kirkham. We even made the Shelby badged hub caps, steering emblem, brake pedal arm, and clutch pedal arm. Other than the logo, all parts are essentially the same as what we make on our current rollers.

We have been working a long, long time with Shelby as of late. Joe Conway, the CEO of Shelby, has been great to work with and is deeply committed to improving Shelby quality and delivery. I wish Joe had taken over long ago. Joe has Keith Belair, CFO, running day to day right now. Keith is also deeply committed to improving quality and delivery. Bill DenBeste, Shelby dealer, is deeply committed to improving quality and delivery. Whenever we have offered them a choice of parts they always go for top-shelf items.



We have not sent an aluminum frame and body to South Africa for many years. That said, Jimmy Price has always been very nice to deal with.

Currently, Shelby has bought several rollers from us. The latest Shelby's from us all have our suspension (and just about everything else). The above 427 50th has our latest billet suspension.

All motor mounts in our cars have always been in the same place. We do not make different frames for Shelby (or anyone else)--unless it is a very specific, custom chassis. We have had customers request V-12 set ups and all sorts of things over the years.




Chris is one of my twin sons (who both work here). They both did indeed work on that roller. I am extremely proud of both of them. They are working on becoming programmers. They jumped straight into our latest project of programming our new 8 axis robot with a laser. It is state-of-the-art.



Hmmm...this is tricky to answer. Many Kirkham and Shelby parts (mostly suspension) of the past SHOULD be interchangeable in theory. In practice they have sometimes fallen short. In the past Shelby used George Petrus parts (George was a very nice man and unfortunately, he is now in the big race track in the sky). George was very liberal in his view of originality (among other things) and his original parts were/are a difficult interchange with original parts.



Yes, we still do for those customers who want them. In the past, those customers have almost exclusively been Shelby. But, as I said above, Joe Conway of Shelby is deeply committed to using as high a quality of parts as he can find and they made the switch to the Kirkham billet suspension with us a bit ago.

Happy to answer questions,

David

[4pipes]

"Pat Buckley was the first guy to take one of our machines and make it really nice as da brushed car. It really opened our eyes as to what could be accomplished. He dramatically raised the bar."

Sure did.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Dimis

I'm torn... so thinking out loud.

Even ignoring the price issue...

If I'm to believe what I've read, then Shelby (via Joe - Good on him!) are finally trying to "catch up" to Kirkham in terms of what they offer.
Parts of me hope they do.

But no matter what they do (short of buying out Kirkham I guess), they can only ever be a rebadged/branded car of equal, or lesser quality (be it from Kirkham or other). No? Or is this disputable?

Clearly I'm missing something....

Shelby clearly has one of the most successful brands in the world. Even so, Joe has taken a successful brand and made it even better. That is an extraordinary accomplishment. Many, many people are far more adept at destroying well-known brands than improving them. Joe and Keith have a move forward attitude and it is spreading through Shelby quickly.

Joe Feliciano at DenBeste Motorsports (Shelby Engines) has taught us quite a bit. He is a fabulous engine builder with a ton of insight and experience. Bill DenBeste has taught me quite a bit personally as well on a business level. I wouldn't mind "catching" either company.

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

You say, "Currently, Shelby has bought several rollers from us." Several does not sound like a lot. Have they switched to just buying rollers now and that is a recent change? Or do you just occasionally sell them rollers and still supply them with just frame/body for the typical case?

I don't mean to be short, but we supply what they order. I really don't know all their future plans.

David