Stephen Becker Automobile group Inc files suit against Shelby American Inc

[jmimac351]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

What drives me nuts is when people complain about what profits are made about any item.

It is a virus infecting our culture and is a disingenuous point of leverage against others; as are many other causes these days. It's all about leverage. The *remarkable* thing is that those who tend to spout this nonsense are always willing to set aside their grievances when it comes to their own opportunity for profit.

You'll never hear these same people say: "Oh no, I can't accept that... you're paying me too much." when it comes to their own stuff.

In that case, "They've earned it"

[Bernica]

I wonder if there may be a little clause buried somewhere in the contract that allows SAI to direct sell "special editions"...

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

of course! When a 'whale' is willing to pay double or triple the market price, there will be people who use their authority for personal gains. The person who paid $500K for a 50th anniversary cobra didn't have to wait 2 1/2 years for delivery.

is it shady? Yes if the profits go into individual bank accounts.

Market price is whatever someone is willing to pay for an item. There have been innumerable examples of products in high demand sold for well excess of 'sticker price' (e.g. Ford GT) - that doesn't make them 'shady' deals. Further, while sales reps probably make higher commissions on such deals, the majority of the profit is likely to go into the coffers of the dealer and ultimately, if publicly traded, the shareholders.

If buyer and seller agree on a price and execute on the transaction on an 'arms length' basis there is nothing 'shady' about the deal - regardless of the price.

[NewYorkGuy]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

Market price is whatever someone is willing to pay for an item. There have been innumerable examples of products in high demand sold for well excess of 'sticker price' (e.g. Ford GT) - that doesn't make them 'shady' deals. Further, while sales reps probably make higher commissions on such deals, the majority of the profit is likely to go into the coffers of the dealer and ultimately, if publicly traded, the shareholders.

If buyer and seller agree on a price and execute on the transaction on an 'arms length' basis there is nothing 'shady' about the deal - regardless of the price.

Imagine if the Ford CEO sold all the new Ford GT straight out of his office? thats basically what Shelby did (in becker's lawsuit), undercut the dealerships and kept the cobras for themselves to sell .

but it really doesn't matter. shelby will settle suit again. 60th anniversary cobras is only 10 years away....LOL

[Dimis]

To me it's shady.

Anyone who rebadges something and tries to pass it off as something different, then inflates the price and then fails to disclose the fact is, in my book is shady.
If they said here's a Kirkham that you can have for $100k or if you prefer we'd be happy to sell you a rebadged version for $1/2mill then that's different.

Hang on... Perhaps it's best a fool and their money are easily parted...
I think I just refuted my own argument.

Carry on...

[Dimis]

Double post.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Dimis

To me it's shady.

... like the Cobra replica biz is anything but.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

Imagine if the Ford CEO sold all the new Ford GT straight out of his office? thats basically what Shelby did (in becker's lawsuit), undercut the dealerships and kept the cobras for themselves to sell .

Actually, I don't think shelby "undercut" the dealers, he just took all the profit on those specific vehicles. I don't know how often you purchase equipment, but most often you can actually purchase directly from the manufacturer even though they almost exclusively sell through distributors. The manufacturer often charges full retail price, where as the distributors are often able to sell cheaper, below list and still make a profit. Manufacturers do this to not undercut their distributors, but some people feel better about purchasing directly from the manufacturer even though they are paying more. This is common. Ford even sells vehicles directly to the public as well. Just watch Barrett-Jackson for the obvious ones.

Now whether shelby has the right/agreement, it made with its distributors, to sell directly to the public, is another issue.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

Imagine if the Ford CEO sold all the new Ford GT straight out of his office? thats basically what Shelby did (in becker's lawsuit), undercut the dealerships and kept the cobras for themselves to sell .

but it really doesn't matter. shelby will settle suit again. 60th anniversary cobras is only 10 years away....LOL

Imagine if you're wrong? Not hard to imagine.

How is a manufacturer's employee (Ford CEO) selling a product his company manufactures direct to the consumer the same thing as a manufacturing company selling directly to a consumer?

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

you're the lawyer. read mr. becker's new lawsuit. at Barrett Jackson auction in Jan 2015 (3 months ago), Shelby sales guys (whoever they are) sold directly to the public all or most of the 50th anniversary cars.

l dont think Shelby bosses want to open up their company book keeping in court. did all profits from the sold 50th annv cars go to company or did shelby sales people pocket money on the side? We will find out in court... or never. previous lawsuit by mr becker was settled out of court . shelby paid undisclosed amount.

only thing Shelby manufactures is a VIN number. thats what the dealers and public are paying for. the VIN number.

Just perhaps you are reading the allegation literally. If SAI salesmen were selling Cobras in the back alley for themselves then I would think SAI would have it's own claim against its sales people or former sales people.

Why would SAI be afraid to show it's books in court? It should be pretty easy to establish who made the sales...i.e. SAI or its dealers.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Dimis

To me it's shady.

Anyone who rebadges something and tries to pass it off as something different, then inflates the price and then fails to disclose the fact is, in my book is shady.
If they said here's a Kirkham that you can have for $100k or if you prefer we'd be happy to sell you a rebadged version for $1/2mill then that's different.

Hang on... Perhaps it's best a fool and their money are easily parted...
I think I just refuted my own argument.

Carry on...

We've been down this road many times. Very few manufacturers manufacture every component of there product. Re-badging is common. The original series Cobras were re-badged ACs. Chevy and Pontiac re-badged many products. Chyrsler and Plymoth. Chevy, GMC, Cadillac. Honda, Acura. Toyota, Lexus. Nissan, Infiniti. Ford, Mercury. Many other products are rebadged too.

As long as the buyer got a genuine Anniversary Shelby 427 and wante to pay the $500K for some reason that was worth it to the buyer, i.e.first or last anniversary or some other factor not known its what the market will support.

[NewYorkGuy]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Just perhaps you are reading the allegation literally. If SAI salesmen were selling Cobras in the back alley for themselves then I would think SAI would have it's own claim against its sales people or former sales people.

Why would SAI be afraid to show it's books in court? It should be pretty easy to establish who made the sales...i.e. SAI or its dealers.

yes the general public would like to know how much shelby pays for a kirkham roller and resells with a VIN.


i'd doubt this suit will see trial. better to settle and sell the shelby myth to the next generation

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

yes the general public would like to know how much shelby pays for a kirkham roller and resells with a VIN.

For purposes of correction / clarification, it is my understanding Kirkham supplies aluminum bodies to to SAI, not 'rollers'. By extension, that would also mean Kirkham has NO involvement whatsoever in SAI cars with fiberglass bodies.

[NewYorkGuy]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

For purposes of correction / clarification, it is my understanding Kirkham supplies aluminum bodies to to SAI, not 'rollers'. By extension, that would also mean Kirkham has NO involvement whatsoever in SAI cars with fiberglass bodies.

David Kirkham wrote in a thread that his company makes the alum body and chassis for the 50th anniver cobras editions. (i think it's only 50 cars?)

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

David Kirkham wrote in a thread that his company makes the alum body and chassis for the 50th anniver cobras editions. (i think it's only 50 cars?)

And why would the public care? If you want an Shelby Anniversary 427 you pay the requested price or you don't get it regardless of whether SAI got the bodies or rollers for free.

You obviously never took any economics classes. Buy a book online.

Sheesh.

[Al G]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

yes the general public would like to know how much shelby pays for a kirkham roller and resells with a VIN.


i'd doubt this suit will see trial. better to settle and sell the shelby myth to the next generation

Do you ask the manufacturer's cost for every product you buy? Why is this any different?

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

For purposes of correction / clarification, it is my understanding Kirkham supplies aluminum bodies to to SAI, not 'rollers'. By extension, that would also mean Kirkham has NO involvement whatsoever in SAI cars with fiberglass bodies.

Correct. The composite cars are built by Hi Tech Automotive and supplied as rollers.

[jhv48]

While I do side with the dealers on this one if, in fact, SAI is selling completed cars against their dealer contract, I could give a rats ass how much anyone charges or makes from the sale of one of these cars.

Who cares how much they are marked up or how much profit the seller makes?
If you don't like the price, don't buy the product. If everyone feels that way, the price will come down.

This is a niche market. Very small volume. The buyers of these and any other Shelby CSX's will either be heralded as geniuses twenty years from now or will be the butt of jokes on how they overspent for these cars. Only time will tell.

My feeling is that as long as these cars are still in production, their value will be stunted. If they ever cease production, as they did in the 60's, then we will truly see if their prices hold, decrease or go through the roof. Only when they are discontinued will the answer be revealed. And I don't see that happening in the near future. SAI is striking while their iron is hot.

I think these cars are being snapped up by speculators and SAI is capitalizing on the death of C.S. and his legend status. Whether that status will continue with the next generation remains to be seen.

I, personally, think his celebrity will decrease with time and the current crop of Shelby cobras will be worth about the same as the rest of the kit cars over time.

The originals will retain their revered status as they defined an era in automotive history. Those produced today are merely copies and will be valued as any other copy of an original.

[REAL 1]

Jhv48: Some of what you say I agree with.

However, while you can say that the continuation series Shelby's are "copies" of the original series, which they are as they must be in order to recreate the car again there is no escaping the fact they are Carroll Shelbys copies of his original series and are genuine Cobras and genuine Shelby Cobras. They are factually and legally the only car that are Cobras other than the original series and those other few noted in the Registry as quailfying. As such they will always command a premium over copies that are "copies of Cobras". This is regardless of whether the market for Cobras withers and shrinks.

Today, BDR can command upwards of $75,000.00. SPF rollers are $70K. A well turned out ERA will set you back $80K. You can pick up a nice glass Continuation Shelby for what?...$120K? If you have the money many will prefer the Shelby because in large part just because it is a Shelby aside from other factors.

In years to come when the wealthy collectors are a new generation looking for the fast cars of their youth and if Carroll Shelby's legendary status or notoriety dies off or is diminished the real losers will likely be the millionaires that paid millions for the original cars. That may be the biggest yuck yuck of all. After all if the enthusiast base for and interest in Cobras diminishes the originals are at the epicenter of that problem.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Today, BDR can command upwards of $75,000.00...

A BDR costs $75k now??? No wonder this hobby is pretty much just for old farts any more.