Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

[Nedsel]

I sent an email to DenBeste a few weeks ago, asking if they knew Shelby had built a CSX 3065 back in the spring of 1997. Never heard back.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Bill's word is gold. I have done, and continue to do, large deals on nothing more than a phone call or a handshake.

I did this once, went in to bat for them too... Boy, was that an error in judgement on my part.

I trust though that your evaluation of character is better than mine.


Just a thought, borrowing from Evan's logic (If I may Evan) - If all these original NOS parts are bound to a 1967 Volkswagen beetle chassis, with a cobra body would they more, or less original?


Further, while we are on the subject of their name and place in history... Actively calling them CSX3000s seems almost purposefully misleading to me... and that leaves a distaste that has me cynical and skeptical about the entire project/operation, despite the cool factor of all those historic bits and pieces.

[fordracing65]

I think it's kind of funny they are calling these 3000 cars, too bad for the guys with 3000 cars already, just another way for Shelby to mess things all up...

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

I think it's kind of funny they are calling these 3000 cars, too bad for the guys with 3000 cars already, just another way for Shelby to mess things all up...

I guess just call them Shelby 3000* with the asteriscs

[REAL 1]

So SAAC has already accepted these cars into the Registry as 3000 series Cobras? We have SAAC members here and in fact..hmmm a moderator here is a SAAC official and concours judge and Ned is SAAC original Cobra Registrar. What say they about the "new" CSX 3000 series being placed in the Registrar as CSX 3000s? Someone must have the inside scoop. I think we already know where Ned stands. My guess is that this "competition" "completion"??? "CSX3000" series car will get a lot of push back from SAAC and the article may have spoken out of school or have relied on incorrect info.

While I agree with David you can't rely on the press to report accurately, and I can personally attest to that, Kirkham assembled the first car David is here and can tell us....

David, is the car built to comp specs or SC specs...which? We all know there are major differences. Is it that it was built to SC specs but its now called the "competition" series? That's makes sense. More confusion.

As to the MSO's. It's easy. If they are autopen and if its like any other color copy you should not be able to see pen impressions or see the signature through the reverse side. My MSO has an original signature. You can see it through the reverse side and see the pen impression marks.

Are they Continuation MSOs? Are they different. My MSO references the car as a 1965 also. Clearly incorrect.

Also if they are original signatures the signatures will vary from MSO to MSO. Can we see some samples? If they are all exactly, exactly alike its auto pen.

If I am buying one of these cars and I am told its an original signature on the MSO I will know the difference. We aren't all as stupid as they may think we are.

[Bernica]

So, as a true Comp Car, does it have the Holley carb with the LeMans bowls on it? Inquiring minds would want to know.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

David: Please don't take my criticisms as directed at you or Kirkham. They are not. Whoever's project this is and is selling them is responsible in my book to inventory the valuable items being sold and provide build sheets. While I am not arguing or questioning whether Bill's word is good or not, if I am spending upwards of $500,000.00 for what is supposed to be in these cars I want more than a handshake and a smile.

I still object (for whatever that's worth) to the use of the term "completion series" and using the CSX 3000 vin for these cars.

It would also be appreciated if the build sheet of one of these cars that is finished as close to original spec as is possible with what is available could be supplied to us on this site. It would likely be appreciated by all of us who value and appreciate historical accuracy and are always striving to improve what we have to that level. It would be a valuable reference tool cost nothing to provide it to us here provided it is ever created if it does not already exist for this project.

I certainly don't take any offense at all. What you (and Ned) do is critical to keeping our industry on the up and up (and other industries). All industries need watchdogs (too bad there aren't more of them in politics). I am very serious when I said I dearly appreciate good lawyers (because I have dealt with so many bad ones). Everything you said is exactly what I would expect of my own lawyer.

As a buyer I wouldn't blame you one bit for wanting a detailed list of what you are buying. It is just that in my experience (among these types of buyers) they rarely want one (it does happen, however).

"I still object (for whatever that's worth) to the use of the term "completion series" and using the CSX 3000 vin for these cars."

I actually see both sides of this. Ned's (and Evan's) side is it to keep the history straightforward and matter of fact. It's very, very important you guys are around and naughtiness abounds. Shelby's side is, "Hey these are our numbers and we can do with them what we want." They do have a point.

I'll keep looking for the photos. I probably mislabeled the folder.

EDIT!

I just got off the phone with the guys at DenBeste and they confirmed we did NOT make the car in the press release. The car we made hasn't been painted yet.

David

[David Kirkham]

[quote=Nedsel;1349113]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

"I still object (for whatever that's worth) to the use of the term "completion series" and using the CSX 3000 vin for these cars."

You may want to read over the press release again. The one I saw did not use the term "completion" as had been used previously, but instead used the term "competition." Unless there was a second press release, that's what the DenBeste group is calling these new cars.

And as for the few original parts that they hope to magically convince buyers there are enough of for every car, did you mean to label them "precocious" i.e. the human quality of exhibiting great ability at an early age, or simply "precious" i.e. of great value?

For what it's worth, I, too, disagree with the premise of calling these CSX 3000-series Cobras. They simply aren't.

Great to see you jumping in! I would LOVE to go over the build in detail with you to see what we did right and what we did wrong. (Ned knows more about these cars than just about anyone else).

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Accurate? Who knows. Here's some copy from their press release; you decide what's accurate. And where did the idea of Guardsman Blue come from? They say it's LeMans Blue, which was not a 60's color, even though they boast of period-correct details.

" The first of the 'Sanction II' 427 Competition Cobra's to be completed (CSX3065) is a spectacular 1965 Shelby Cobra 427 aluminum body clad in Le Mans Blue paint with Wimbledon White Le Mans stripes and black interior. The period correct details are carried throughout the vehicle from the engine to the race ready suspension. Each of the 34 remaining 'Sanction II' 427 Cobras come with an MSO signed by Carroll Shelby listing it as a 1965 Shelby Cobra. This series of the Cobra will also be submitted and listed in the Shelby American Automobile Club Registry. Contact DenBeste Motorsports for information on purchasing this limited edition piece of American automotive racing history."

And folks, for what it's worth, the plural of Cobra Is COBRAS. It's not Cobra's!

UPDATE!
UPDATE!
UPDATE!

Hmmm. As I mentioned, I haven't followed the press releases; I am reading about them here. We are just too busy. Maybe we didn't make that one in the press release after all. I don't know anything about CSX3065; we built CSX3066 for DenBeste. I just assumed we made the one we were talking about in this thread, as we just delivered it to DenBeste.

Maybe they wrote the number down wrong?

Maybe that one in the press release isn't the one we built? I'm pretty sure we are not the only one building these.

David


EDIT!

I just got off the phone with the guys at DenBeste and they confirmed we did NOT make the car in the press release. The car we made hasn't been painted yet.

[NewYorkGuy]

David,
Is it safe to assume without your company's involvement, Shelby would not have any Cobras to sell, present and future?
What exactly does Shelby manufacture these days?

[Bernica]

Maybe just start with one of Vernon's (TheTurd) master parts list for the original 427 and check off all the parts included? I have one of these books and it's almost 1/2" thick. Every nut and bolt...

AC Cars Shelby American 427 Cobra Master Parts List Bill of Materials Reference | eBay

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

David,
Is it safe to assume without your company's involvement, Shelby would not have any Cobras to sell, present and future?
What exactly does Shelby manufacture these days?

Shelby also sources cars from South Africa (fiberglass) and England (csx1000) in addition to cars sourced from Kirkham.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

So SAAC has already accepted these cars into the Registry as 3000 series Cobras? We have SAAC members here and in fact..hmmm a moderator here is a SAAC official and concours judge and Ned is SAAC original Cobra Registrar. What say they about the "new" CSX 3000 series being placed in the Registrar as CSX 3000s? Someone must have the inside scoop. I think we already know where Ned stands. My guess is that this "competition" "completion"??? "CSX3000" series car will get a lot of push back from SAAC and the article may have spoken out of school or have relied on incorrect info.

While I agree with David you can't rely on the press to report accurately, and I can personally attest to that, Kirkham assembled the first car David is here and can tell us....

David, is the car built to comp specs or SC specs...which? We all know there are major differences. Is it that it was built to SC specs but its now called the "competition" series? That's makes sense. More confusion.

As to the MSO's. It's easy. If they are autopen and if its like any other color copy you should not be able to see pen impressions or see the signature through the reverse side. My MSO has an original signature. You can see it through the reverse side and see the pen impression marks.

Are they Continuation MSOs? Are they different. My MSO references the car as a 1965 also. Clearly incorrect.

Also if they are original signatures the signatures will vary from MSO to MSO. Can we see some samples? If they are all exactly, exactly alike its auto pen.

If I am buying one of these cars and I am told its an original signature on the MSO I will know the difference. We aren't all as stupid as they may think we are.

Decades ago when the completion cars were originally conceived, there were only 30 or 40 something MSOs for Shelby to sign. In that case I could imagine that they printed them all at once and Shelby could have signed them all in 10 minutes instead of taking the time to sign each one individually as the cars were completed. So it does not seem out of the question that the MSOs for these cars were not auto penned.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Maybe that one in the press release isn't the one we built? I'm pretty sure we are not the only one building these.

David

I see this ^^^ as a potentially significant problem. If Kirkham isn't the only company responsible for the production of the "Resurrection" Cobra series, then QC (Quality Control and Inventory Control) may/will be compromised. Unless it's someone like Mike McCluskey or Kirkham, I wouldn't be a buyer. And hopefully, there's only one source for this treasure trove of OEM parts.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I see this ^^^ as a potentially significant problem. If Kirkham isn't the only company responsible for the production of the "Resurrection" Cobra series, then QC (Quality Control and Inventory Control) may/will be compromised. Unless it's someone like Mike McCluskey or Kirkham, I wouldn't be a buyer. And hopefully, there's only one source for this treasure trove of OEM parts.

A yup there! Don't spread it out. Needs a pedigree from one of these guys or would dilute things!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

So SAAC has already accepted these cars into the Registry as 3000 series Cobras? We have SAAC members here and in fact..hmmm a moderator here is a SAAC official and concours judge and Ned is SAAC original Cobra Registrar. What say they about the "new" CSX 3000 series being placed in the Registrar as CSX 3000s? Someone must have the inside scoop. I think we already know where Ned stands. My guess is that this "competition" "completion"??? "CSX3000" series car will get a lot of push back from SAAC and the article may have spoken out of school or have relied on incorrect info.

Who came up with the moniker "Continuation"? Wasn't it Shelby?

Ultimately, SAAC catalogs what Shelby (and Kirkham) produces. I'm sure, these "Resurrection" Cobras will have a separate chapter in the next World Registry with their CSX3000 designation.

For the record, being a SAAC member, I also disagree with the designation of CSX3000 for these new CSX3000's. In my mind, my position stands: it's a replica being built by Shelby. It's not the same company, not the same employees, not the same era and not the same materials.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Who came up with the moniker "Continuation"? Wasn't it Shelby?

Ultimately, SAAC catalogs what Shelby (and Kirkham) produces. I'm sure, these "Resurrection" Cobras will have a separate chapter in the next World Registry with their CSX3000 designation.

For the record, being a SAAC member, I also disagree with the designation of CSX3000 for these new CSX3000's. In my mind, my position stands: it's a replica being built by Shelby. It's not the same company, not the same employees, not the same era and not the same materials.

Like I said in previous post on this thread, I am pretty sure SAAC and the next Registry will have a separate chapter about these cars in the next edition. They will have to...

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

The press release was a surprise to me as we only recently delivered it to Bill. He must have gotten right on it to have finished it and painted it. (That's how Bill works).

David

EDIT!

I just got off the phone with the guys at DenBeste and they confirmed we did NOT make the car in the press release. The car we made hasn't been painted yet.

David

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

EDIT!

I just got off the phone with the guys at DenBeste and they confirmed we did NOT make the car in the press release. The car we made hasn't been painted yet.

David

My apologies for the obvious question, and you may not know the answer, but who finished the car? Whose alloy body is on the chassis?

[DanEC]

Gawd - I've had enough trouble understanding all the different series of Shelby cars over the years, 2000, 3000, 4000, 6000, export, import, continuation, fiberglass, aluminum, South Africa, Kirkham, Poland, Mike McClusky - this all makes my head hurt. Now there are 3000* series cars??

I live on a small lake with a lot of rather promiscous ducks running all around in heat laying eggs everywhere. Kind of reminds me of the hatchlings - whose your daddy? For that matter, whose your mother?