Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

[Kit Coyle]

These ultimate replicas will be expensive and the cinderella story could get
ugly on down the road when you go to sell. In the words of Warren Buffett,
"the price is what you pay; value is what you get." All this fancy marketing is
just part of the on going replica story, a story that would never have been if
the charismatic little hot rod from Southern California hadn't been born.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Well you already have a chapter in the current registry for the 3000 series "completion" cars. I would think that you could either just expand that section or add another section right after it.

Or, we could limit the SAAC registry to cars from the 60's that were actually built then, too.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Or, we could limit the SAAC registry to cars from the 60's that were actually built then, too.

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Well, I had a very long discussion today with Denbeste, including about pricing, availability, parts sources, etc.. I have permission to post the results here, but have decided not to do so right now because all that will happen is a few detractors will tear it apart and the facts will be lost.

I will say that there are two sources for the cars, frames were from the McClusky era and MSOs (being created at the time the frames were stamped with VINs) are original signatures. (I have a picture with two of them in it.)

If you want the truth call Denbeste.

Why doesn't Denbeste come on this forum and provide the facts? One of the best places to put the facts out worldwide.

Why don't you tell us what you learned? What's the trepidation in airing the facts?

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Why doesn't Denbeste come on this forum and provide the facts? One of the best places to put the facts out worldwide.

Why don't you tell us what you learned? What's the trepidation in airing the facts?

THAT's what I'm talking about!! How about some build logs, pics and parts lists? Put the whole deal in front of folks that know this stuff (not me).
This is probably the most critical place on the planet for that stuff as you can see. Just saying...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Why doesn't Denbeste come on this forum and provide the facts? One of the best places to put the facts out worldwide.

Why don't you tell us what you learned? What's the trepidation in airing the facts?

Facts? Yea, right.

I doubt anyone knows the "facts." And any transfer of info from Denbeste to Tony will be 2nd, possibly, 3rd generation "facts." So pretty much, the "facts" are not so much "facts" anymore, but more like interpretations.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Facts? Yea, right.

I doubt anyone knows the "facts." And any transfer of info from Denbeste to Tony will be 2nd, possibly, 3rd generation "facts." So pretty much, the "facts" are not so much "facts" anymore, but more like interpretations.

I have facts. If you want facts call denbeste. Rich will answer all your questions. And this attitude that the info I was given can't be factual is exactly why it's not worth the bother. You see the greatest majority here wish pray and hope this project will be a dismal failure and are doing your best to make it so. The cars are being built. Get over it.

Keep speculating. It just helps prove that this the only unbiased cobra forum.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I have facts. If you want facts call denbeste. Rich will answer all your questions. And this attitude that the info I was given can't be factual is exactly why it's not worth the bother. You see the greatest majority here wish pray and hope this project will be a dismal failure and are doing your best to make it so. The cars are being built. Get over it.

Keep speculating. It just helps prove that this the only unbiased cobra forum.

Honestly I could care less one way or another. Build them, don't build them. Who gives a $hit. They're all replicas after the 1960's to me anyway.

The fact that these cars can never be driven on a public street or highway is hilarious to me. And fork-lifting them onto a platform against a wall in some warehouse to stare at a replica is .

Facts, puh-leeze. I'm not even sure SAI has a business plan at this point for these Resurrection Cobras. Although the stock price is up, so that's a good thing for a public company.

As Evan mentioned earlier, just inventory the OEM parts and produce accurate build sheets for the new owners of these very expensive pieces of art. I'm just here trying to keep the BS down to a dull roar.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I have facts. If you want facts call denbeste. Rich will answer all your questions. And this attitude that the info I was given can't be factual is exactly why it's not worth the bother. You see the greatest majority here wish pray and hope this project will be a dismal failure and are doing your best to make it so. The cars are being built. Get over it.

Keep speculating. It just helps prove that this the only unbiased cobra forum.

Tony: No question there are some very biased people and some people motivated by nothing more than jealousy here. I have dealt with this for over 15 years here. No one knows better than me about this issue.

However, on the other hand there are some very fair minded people here and also some very knowledgeable people here. While I believe I am very fair minded and look for facts I don't profess to be an expert on these cars. Very knowledgeable? Perhaps compared to the average Joe but not an expert. We do have experts in the nitty gritty of these car who can comment fairly.

The biggest problem with these cars was the nomenclature used for them and awarding them a CSX 3000 vin. Regardless of the best inventory of parts, certified by every recognized expert on Shelby parts, and a certified build sheet and regardless if GOD himself built these cars they are not CSX 3000 cars and don't belong to that series. Period. CSX 3000 and CSX 2000 series belong to an era long gone and part of history. You can't try to change or modify history without criticism or ridicule.

David Kirkham was not afraid to air the facts he knew about these cars. He just could not answer a lot of questions posed. If you are going to build a "completion" car or a "competition" car and represent it has 100% all original parts and is dead nuts accurate and sell it for $500,000 + with a CSX 3000 vin... I think just maybe you might expect some questions from people in the Cobra community. No?

I would think if you are representing you are building such cars you would be willing to explain and provide facts and answer questions. Not run home with you ball because the game got a little rough. That just fuels cynicism and suspicion.

You didn't need permission to tell us what DenBeste told you unless you signed an NDA. I don't understand all this "cloak and dagger" nonsense. This is not doing any good for the project in the Cobra community as far as I'm concerned. The article even said to call if you want to know more "call". I guess well all have to "call" individually since you won't just tell us what you have been told? Come on. Sounds like you have your mind set on one of these cars. That's great. Not knocking it. Many here just have questions. At the end of the day I really don't care since I would never buy one of these cars for the three major reasons. One, I can't drive it on public roads legally as I understand. Am I wrong? Two, it has a CSX 3000 vin which is a canard and apocryphal and will never be accepted in IMHO by SAAC as a true CSX 3000 series Cobra, any owners of originals and the bulk of the Cobra hobby community will never accept them as true CSX 3000 vin Cobras.

UNLESS OF COURSE WE HAVEN'T BEEN TOLD SOMETHING???? If this is true what's the secret?

Here's what I am deducing so far. Maybe you can confirm or deny?

1. The cars are to be built on McClusky chassis built for the original "Completion" cars and have the CSX 3000 vins already stamped on them.

2. DeBeneste (and others?) have a stock pile of original parts they will bolt to these chassis.

3. Some bodies are made by McClusky some are Kirkham.

4. The cars will be built all to original spec as close as possible or if the customer does not want to pay for the "Full Monty" a lesser then 100% spec car can be built.

5. You can specify SC or comp spec.

6. I would hope someone is doing a detailed inventory of parts documenting there are sufficient original parts in all regards to build the remaining homologation run and providing a cross referenced build sheet.

7. The MSO's are all signed by Carroll at the time the original completion project was on the runway getting ready to take off.

8. This new project is a "revisiting" of that defunct and discredited "Completion" project with a new spin. The spin being they are now up front in saying the chassis are not real original CSX 3000 chassis but the cars are fitted with all original parts or at least the fully optioned ones.

9. This project is really the "inside out" of the old defunct one. The old defunct "Completion" project you were supposedly getting an original CSX 3000 chassis with most new parts to original or close to original spec. This project is the reverse. New chassis with old parts.

10. Both projects would/are still produce/ing a car that is not what it purports to be. A Cobra of the original CSX 3000 series. As I said GOD himself couldn't change that fact.

99% of my criticism would evaporate if they just re-Vined them with even a suffix to the Vin to identify it as a special sub group to make clear it is not an original chassis. Even "CSX 3077H" would sit better with me and explain more about this stash of parts and the inventory process and just what's there.

Would also love to see an original build sheet of a 100% car. Would be great thing for the hobby and the Cobra community to provide it.

Just say'n.

[fordracing65]

That is how history is made, by people changing what happens in the future, they can name them whatever they want, and long ago they decided to name these 3000 series cars, so here is your chance to own a REAL, Shelby Cobra 3000 series, isn't making history great...

[twobjshelbys]

You can argue till the cows come home whether these are original Cobras. They aren't. Noone said they were, and noone is going to be fooled into thinking they are. They are simply using a well known set of components created over 20 years ago. The VINs were assigned in the 90's when the chassis were built, the controversial issues of the time have been addressed, and the cars are going to be built.

Cars are sold on the same MSOs as the previous when the controversy shut them down. They won't work in CA. Your mileage in other places may be higher. Think Montana. I'll put very high odds that these become street legal in some jurisdictions. Some places will give you the same hassle as CA. Don't ever try to move the car to CA. This is my conclusion but it was never stated explicitly that other places may not be so evil as CA.

I'll reserve judgement until I see one, but knowing the parties making them they will rival the CSX1000 cars in quality.

Build sheets are being done for each vehicle. The answers to these and many other questions are available from Denbeste.

[twobjshelbys]

1. The cars are to be built on McClusky chassis built for the original "Completion" cars and have the CSX 3000 vins already stamped on them.
A: Yes

2. DeBeneste (and others?) have a stock pile of original parts they will bolt to these chassis.
A: Yes

3. Some bodies are made by McClusky some are Kirkham.
A: no

4. The cars will be built all to original spec as close as possible or if the customer does not want to pay for the "Full Monty" a lesser then 100% spec car can be built.
A: Customers don't get to choose. Earlier cars will have more original era parts until the supply is depleted then new or recreation parts will be used. The recipe will be in the build sheet.


5. You can specify SC or comp spec.
A: don't know but I think the press release said S/C

6. I would hope someone is doing a detailed inventory of parts documenting there are sufficient original parts in all regards to build the remaining homologation run and providing a cross referenced build sheet.
A: Your honor, is there a question here?

7. The MSO's are all signed by Carroll at the time the original completion project was on the runway getting ready to take off.
A: That is what I was told but that makes it heresay. Maybe you should ask the source so you get your own answer.

8. This new project is a "revisiting" of that defunct and discredited "Completion" project with a new spin. The spin being they are now up front in saying the chassis are not real original CSX 3000 chassis but the cars are fitted with all original parts or at least the fully optioned ones.
A: Your honor, the prosecution is pontificating. Is there a question here?

9. This project is really the "inside out" of the old defunct one. The old defunct "Completion" project you were supposedly getting an original CSX 3000 chassis with most new parts to original or close to original spec. This project is the reverse. New chassis with old parts.
A: Objection your honor. That question was asked and answered in a different form.

10. Both projects would/are still produce/ing a car that is not what it purports to be. A Cobra of the original CSX 3000 series. As I said GOD himself couldn't change that fact.
A: Objection. The prosecution is pontificating and making conclusions. Is there a question here

[NewYorkGuy]

what's the price?

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

what's the price?

500k for first 3 cars (with 50K of that to the Museum, you can write it off).

As you can see there are two cars in the pipeline. Drew's car is done, David's car is "in paint". Third car expected after the first of the year. Prices after that are subject to adjustment.

My wife vetoed it. She hates Cobras.

[LMH]

Any photos of the three?
Larry

[kanuck]

So now when I see a a 3000 series car can I ask "is it a real one" how does that work?
I am so confused.

Dean

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Would also love to see an original build sheet of a 100% car. Would be great thing for the hobby and the Cobra community to provide it.

Just say'n.

That's why I posted this earlier in the thread. At least it is a starting point for a checklist on what is being "reproduced".

AC Cars Shelby American 427 Cobra Master Parts List Bill of Materials Reference | eBay

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by kanuck

So now when I see a a 3000 series car can I ask "is it a real one" how does that work?
I am so confused.

Dean

It's easy. Read the registry. If the car isn't listed under the section covering cars built in the 60's, it belongs elsewhere.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

1. The cars are to be built on McClusky chassis built for the original "Completion" cars and have the CSX 3000 vins already stamped on them.
A: Yes

2. DeBeneste (and others?) have a stock pile of original parts they will bolt to these chassis.
A: Yes

3. Some bodies are made by McClusky some are Kirkham.
A: no

4. The cars will be built all to original spec as close as possible or if the customer does not want to pay for the "Full Monty" a lesser then 100% spec car can be built.
A: Customers don't get to choose. Earlier cars will have more original era parts until the supply is depleted then new or recreation parts will be used. The recipe will be in the build sheet.


5. You can specify SC or comp spec.
A: don't know but I think the press release said S/C

6. I would hope someone is doing a detailed inventory of parts documenting there are sufficient original parts in all regards to build the remaining homologation run and providing a cross referenced build sheet.
A: Your honor, is there a question here?

7. The MSO's are all signed by Carroll at the time the original completion project was on the runway getting ready to take off.
A: That is what I was told but that makes it heresay. Maybe you should ask the source so you get your own answer.

8. This new project is a "revisiting" of that defunct and discredited "Completion" project with a new spin. The spin being they are now up front in saying the chassis are not real original CSX 3000 chassis but the cars are fitted with all original parts or at least the fully optioned ones.
A: Your honor, the prosecution is pontificating. Is there a question here?

9. This project is really the "inside out" of the old defunct one. The old defunct "Completion" project you were supposedly getting an original CSX 3000 chassis with most new parts to original or close to original spec. This project is the reverse. New chassis with old parts.
A: Objection your honor. That question was asked and answered in a different form.

10. Both projects would/are still produce/ing a car that is not what it purports to be. A Cobra of the original CSX 3000 series. As I said GOD himself couldn't change that fact.
A: Objection. The prosecution is pontificating and making conclusions. Is there a question here

Tony: Some of your objections would be sustained for sure. Good job. My bad.

Ok. Here are some better questions for the witness...

1. Are the cars to be Kirkham bodied?
2. Are the cars to be McClusky bodied?
3. Is there a master inventory being made.
4. Is that master inventory being cross referenced with the builds as the go to reflect dwindling inventory?
5. Does the buyer get a detailed build sheet?
6. Is there any chance at all your wife will let you buy one if you promise to move to a state that will let you register it?
7. Are all the MSO noted with the limitation "For closed course use/off road use only" or the equivalent?
8. Can we get a build sheet of one of the first cars posted here? Did you ask?
9. Is the master inventory and build sheets verified as to the original parts by a known and respected expert and if so who???

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Tony: No question there are some very biased people and some people motivated by nothing more than jealousy here. I have dealt with this for over 15 years here. No one knows better than me about this issue.

And then there's the "flock", or "sheep" if you will. The folks who so want to believe, and with such religious fervor, that they can't see the fallacy. Blasphemy! Don't you dare question the religious doctrine, unless of course, your own position within the community happens to be threatened.

[RodKnock]

Tony & Evan, please use the correct spelling of McCluskey. Not McClusky. Holy cow, he's only been around for a few decades building Cobras and Daytona Coupes. Get it right.