Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I don't know the state of restoration or completion for every original cobra out there. I doubt anyone does. A lot of these original parts were obtainable individually on a limited basis. So if the owner needed an original park here in there there were sources to go to.. Very few of them were unattainable.

It's just that no one knew or thought it was a stash – the size of which would allow 47 cars to be built. I just find it very hard to believe that such a large stash was kept secret for over 50 years and all of a sudden now is shown to the world. How do we know the parts in the stash are all original and many are not repros?

I am not saying that a wealthy owner of an original car could not buy one of these cars to use as a parts car. This just seems to me a very expensive way to obtain some original parts. And this would obviously destroy or damage whatever value the completion car had to begin with. Such a trend would also in my opinion completely undermine the value and desirability of this new completion car in addition to the issues they already have trying to carry off CSX 3000 vins.

First, the Resurrection Cobra is a replica to me. Canabilizing it is a means to an end. I mean really, it's another special limited edition replica to me. Second, David K. is on record stating that some of these OEM parts are/were unobtainable.

And any one buying one of these Resurrection Cobras for $500,000, with of course $50,000 being potentially tax deductible, has more money than brains, unless they strip it to finish the restoration of their genuine 1960's Cobra.

[NewYorkGuy]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Anthony, I'm hoping it didn't take you 21 pages to figure out that NYG's elevator doesn't go to the top floor. Though, it could be a union problem, since he lives in NY.

Rodknock,

Stop trolling

23 pages for you to say, "not interested."

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

Rodknock,

Stop trolling

23 pages for you to say, "not interested."

This is a page 22 so you're wrong again.

And no one on this thread is interested, including you and your Nissan Leaf. Why? It's a $500K replica that can't be driven legally on a public road unless the new owner can find a drunk or drugged up DMV employee in a state somewhere in the USA. Of course, there's always the bribery, er, I mean, "greasing the wheels " route.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

This is a page 22 so you're wrong again.

And no one on this thread is interested, including you and your Nissan Leaf. Why? It's a $500K replica that can't be driven legally on a public road unless the new owner can find a drunk or drugged up DMV employee in a state somewhere in the USA. Of course, there's always the bribery, er, I mean, "greasing the wheels " route.

Maybe our current President will grant them Amnesty on his way out!

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Bernica

Maybe our current President will grant them Amnesty on his way out!

Well, if the cars don't have a MSO, then they'll be like him.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Anthony, I'm hoping it didn't take you 21 pages to figure out that NYG's elevator doesn't go to the top floor. Though, it could be a union problem, since he lives in NY.

Well -----------

I tell you. So much of this thread reminds me of Clubcobra old. It brings back so many good online memories.

[Bernica]

Most entertainment I have had in a while here!!
Always love this site, always will.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

First, the Resurrection Cobra is a replica to me. Canabilizing it is a means to an end. I mean really, it's another special limited edition replica to me. Second, David K. is on record stating that some of these OEM parts are/were unobtainable.

And any one buying one of these Resurrection Cobras for $500,000, with of course $50,000 being potentially tax deductible, has more money than brains, unless they strip it to finish the restoration of their genuine 1960's Cobra.

Just which parts are unattainable? How significant are they? Who in their right mind would spend $500,000 to obtain a real Lucas rearview mirror?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Just which parts are unattainable? How significant are they? Who in their right mind would spend $500,000 to obtain a real Lucas rearview mirror?

Here's David's post, but I'm sure his list is not an exhaustive one, but a sampling.

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Guys,Regarding the CSX3000 "Continuation Cars" (at least that is what I think they are calling them) we have already made one. It was sold before we finished it. Bill DenBeste spared no expense. He wanted everything RIGHT.

Bill gave us a ton of original parts to work with. Bill has a MOUNTAIN of original parts. I have no idea where he got all of them. (Some from Mike McCluskey, some from Shelby, and probably some from God). I mean he has a literal MOUNTAIN of goodies. He has original, copper radiators, original 16 inch steering wheels, original switches--still in the Lucas packages. It is fascinating to walk through his treasure trove. Smaug would be jealous of that hoard. There are parts in there I have never, ever seen before (keep in mind I have been working on Cobras now for over 25 years).

Bill and Joe Conway wanted everything perfectly correct and handed us a chassis, a pile of parts, and told us to go for it. The cars are literally clones of the original Cobras. If you placed one of them beside an original car at a show and you saw some difference I can tell you the error will most likely be with the original car.

Partial list of the specs:
many parts are original--as in I took them out of the original box.
some parts are EXACT reproductions. (And yes, some are Kirkham reproductions made from billet but you'd be very hard pressed to figure out they weren't original). You know, if we got something wrong (probably did) let me know and we will improve! There is an extreme level of commitment here on the part of Bill and Joe.

Goodies include:
original copper radiator
original fuel log
original 1 3/8 roll bar
Lucas switches/electrical
Lucas headlights (still in the box)
original seat tracks
original iron differential
original 1/2 shafts
original 1965 iron side oiler block
original 1965 forged steel 427 crank
Shelby heads (new Shelby heads). I really don't mind they are "new" heads in the slightest--Bill makes really nice stuff.
Top Loader transmission
Original reproduction suspension
solid rotors--like original
Girling reproduction brake calipers (Kirkham billet, you can't tell the difference--they are SWEET pieces made from high heat resistant 2219 aluminum).
original, in the box, voltage regulator
original, in the box, Lucas electrical everywhere
Smith's gauges
Original Lucas wiper motor!!! (Impossible to find)

David

All I'm suggesting is that if indeed they are a lot of unobtainium-type NOS OEM parts, they actually may increase the value of the original genuine '60's Cobra more than the loss of value on the Resurrection Cobra. How much do these wealthy individuals spend on a restoration anyway? I'm sure there are some 1960's Cobras (drives me nuts that I have to state 1960's Cobra) that need ALOT of work. Is it smart? I dunno, but as David said these Resurrection Cobras will be dead nuts original. And you can't and/or won't drive them anyway.

[Dimis]

But rodknock if you reuse them they're no longer NOS, just 2nd hand, old, used pieces off (insert apt wording depending on your belief here...). lol

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Hmmmm, let me see if I have this theory down pat. Soooo, owners of originals that are already "original" and may be missing a few items will spend $500,000.00 + dollars to buy one of the new "Completion" car just to cannibalize it for some parts and then hope to get back their purchase price and resell the car minus the original parts they cannibalized?

Then do they pass on the original bill of sale and build sheet or disclose the "missing" parts? If they don't disclose the parts it's fraud. Not many want to expose themselves to that. If they do disclose the missing parts then what is the car worth now? Also, since all the cars will apparently differ in the amount of original parts they carry, which car do they buy?

If This type of game starts to occur it will kill the value of these cars as no one will want to pay "big" $$$ for them never knowing if the car they are buying has been "raped" of its original list of parts. I would certainly approach such cars with caution if this type of shenanigans starts to take place.

Also, in most scenarios parts are worth sold more sold separately than as an entire vehicle when parted out. Why not sell the entire stash if it really exists and to whatever extent it exists separately item by item? Likely would bring far more in the end and then sell the CSX 3000 chassis separately to be completed as CSX 3XXX with a suffix like "H" for "historic" stamped onto each chassis and completed by Kirkham or McClusky to competition specs (not SC) that would clearly identify what they were and remove the objectionable issue of having them purpost to be part of a series they are not.

If the original run were completed they would not be SCs. Historically, had they been completed to the 100 needed they would have been comp spec.

Also, while I don't doubt DeBeneste was friendly with Carroll Shelby and if was DeBeneste that "ended" up with this "stash of parts" which the world is just now finding out existed raises another fertile ground for some real questions.

If Carroll had these parts he supposedly would have had them for many years. No?

I have never heard or read about this stash before. Been around Cobras for 20+ years and have participated on numerous forums dedicated to Shelbys and Cobras. Never heard anyone speak of it. Am I missing something? If so please enlighten me.

The current Registry doesn't mention such a stash. At least that I was able to find. I don't know if previous Registries did.

Asked a builder of a well known and very respected replica company and a restorer of originals and very knowledgeable regarding Cobras if they ever heard about this stash. Nope.

Carroll was very close friends with McClusky and Lynn Park. Why didn't one of those two end up with the parts if he "sold" them. Why not a family member?

If this secret mountain of "Shelby gold" existed I am incredulous that it remained such a secret likely from the 60's and all of a sudden the announcement is made in 2015 and "pow" the world is in awe. Really?

Why wasn't the announcement made back in the time frame with the previous Completion series was being ginned up? Carroll never mentioned such an original stash of "parts" as I recall. Again enlighten me if I a wrong. All he mentioned was the existence of 1965 Chassis "he found out back" then later said after getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar that he "was just misunderstood" clarifying only that they are "true to spec" 1965 chassis built by McClusky. He had the perfect chance to say "he what I meant was these are true to spec 1965 chassis to be adorned with vintage original parts and components making them true 1965 cars". He didn't even when he as in a jam with the State of Californication back peddling fast trying to avoid criminal issues. If ever there was a time to wheel out this stash that was the time.

The article at the top of this thread and the other article said he wanted the project completed "after his death". Really? Think about that. Make sense? Ah, no.

The pieces of this puzzle just don't seem to fit right to me.

Just say'n.

Hmm, a stash of unobtainable parts that nobody has heard of.

Did you see the Spring 2013 SAAC magazine? There is an interesting article about Bob Gingold becoming obsessed with acquiring all kinds of parts rare NOS parts for the restoration of CSX3133 over 39 years.

Here are some interesting quotes:
- "Ten round trips later, Gingold's 3,000 square foot basement and a couple of garages were filled with enough 427 Cobra parts to start a restoration business."
- "He became well known to the Cobra restorers of the day, like Mike McCluskey, Bill Kemper, Geoff Howard and Carter Gette. Most were willing to sell him a couple of what he was looking for but they realized they also needed to maintain an inventory for their own customers."
- "He found the correct bearings at a parts supplier in Paris, France. This bearing did not exist in the U.S. But he did not stop there. He went to the original factory in England and bought whatever inventory they still had."
- "For the last trip he took the passenger and rear seat out of his car and filled it with 120 complete pumps in the original boxes. He also got whatever odd parts were left over, plus two unique chromed pumps that were assembled for display at trade shows."

Do you suppose it is possible that with the restoration of CSX3133 complete that Bob might have sold part of his collection of NOS parts?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

But rodknock if you reuse them they're no longer NOS, just 2nd hand, old, used pieces off (insert apt wording depending on your belief here...). lol

You're just being obtuse.

The Resurrection Cobras will have maybe 10 miles on them. The NOS OEM parts will look new.

As I said, it's definitely within the realm of possibilities assuming the parts are unobtainium and the 1960's CSX3000 owner has lots of dinero and needs parts for the restoration.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Here's David's post, but I'm sure his list is not an exhaustive one, but a sampling.



All I'm suggesting is that if indeed they are a lot of unobtainium-type NOS OEM parts, they actually may increase the value of the original genuine '60's Cobra more than the loss of value on the Resurrection Cobra. How much do these wealthy individuals spend on a restoration anyway? I'm sure there are some 1960's Cobras (drives me nuts that I have to state 1960's Cobra) that need ALOT of work. Is it smart? I dunno, but as David said these Resurrection Cobras will be dead nuts original. And you can't and/or won't drive them anyway.

I'm not saying some eccentric nut wouldn't do what you are saying but the main problem would be if that becomes a trend or happens even once this could increase the size of the "cloud" IMHO that already exists by virtue of (1) using 3000 vins (2) referring to these cars as "Completion" cars (3) referring to them as dead nuts 100% percent accurate which they can never be. Not an original body or chassis. By the way are the bodies the same thickness as the original? Moreover, we would need to see a COMPLETE build sheet to be assured of such a 'LOFTY" claim and (4) they would all have to be build to Competition specs to be "historically" accurate as far as the remaining 100.

However, I am glad to see you are making progress with your "denial" syndrome. Don't let it drive you nuts. Just relax and breath deeply. You'll be fine and feel better!

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Hmm, a stash of unobtainable parts that nobody has heard of.

Did you see the Spring 2013 SAAC magazine? There is an interesting article about Bob Gingold becoming obsessed with acquiring all kinds of parts rare NOS parts for the restoration of CSX3133 over 39 years.

Here are some interesting quotes:
- "Ten round trips later, Gingold's 3,000 square foot basement and a couple of garages were filled with enough 427 Cobra parts to start a restoration business."
- "He became well known to the Cobra restorers of the day, like Mike McCluskey, Bill Kemper, Geoff Howard and Carter Gette. Most were willing to sell him a couple of what he was looking for but they realized they also needed to maintain an inventory for their own customers."
- "He found the correct bearings at a parts supplier in Paris, France. This bearing did not exist in the U.S. But he did not stop there. He went to the original factory in England and bought whatever inventory they still had."
- "For the last trip he took the passenger and rear seat out of his car and filled it with 120 complete pumps in the original boxes. He also got whatever odd parts were left over, plus two unique chromed pumps that were assembled for display at trade shows."

Do you suppose it is possible that with the restoration of CSX3133 complete that Bob might have sold part of his collection of NOS parts?

Good find!.. Is Gingold still alive? If so why doesn't someone ask him or a family member what happened to the stash?

How about asking some of these other restorers? I'm not saying Carroll didn't have a supply of old parts as I am sure he would somewhere but enough to build 47 cars? ...that no one knew about???? I am just a little incredulous on that one.

[HealeyRick]

Just out of curiosity, do any of the non '60s Cobras ever sell for more than their purchase price after the first owner is done with them? Is there truly a monetary investment value to these special editions? I'm talking real sales here, not "appraised value."

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by HealeyRick

Just out of curiosity, do any of the non '60s Cobras ever sell for more than their purchase price after the first owner is done with them? Is there truly a monetary investment value to these special editions? I'm talking real sales here, not "appraised value."

Yes, several of them do.
Shelby, Kirkham, ERA, Contemporary to name a few seem to do quite well. I'm sure someone will let me know which ones I forgot to list!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I'm not saying some eccentric nut wouldn't do what you are saying but the main problem would be if that becomes a trend or happens even once this could increase the size of the "cloud" IMHO that already exists by virtue of (1) using 3000 vins (2) referring to these cars as "Completion" cars (3) referring to them as dead nuts 100% percent accurate which they can never be. Not an original body or chassis. By the way are the bodies the same thickness as the original? Moreover, we would need to see a COMPLETE build sheet to be assured of such a 'LOFTY" claim and (4) they would all have to be build to Competition specs to be "historically" accurate as far as the remaining 100.

However, I am glad to see you are making progress with your "denial" syndrome. Don't let it drive you nuts. Just relax and breath deeply. You'll be fine and feel better!

What progress? You can call them whatever you want and SAAC can refer to them anyway they want, but in the end, every single Cobra made after roughly 1967-1968 is a REPLICA. Some REPLICAS are more accurate than others, but the bottom line is that Shelby isn't the same company, not the same employees, not the same materials and they're being copied 40-50 years after the originals.

Everything is about marketing and money and the limited special editions will continue to be sold to the gullible.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

What progress? You can call them whatever you want and SAAC can refer to them anyway they want, but in the end, every single Cobra made after roughly 1967-1968 is a REPLICA. Some REPLICAS are more accurate than others, but the bottom line is that Shelby isn't the same company, not the same employees, not the same materials and they're being copied 40-50 years after the originals.

Everything is about marketing and money and the limited special editions will continue to be sold to the gullible.

Ok. Calm down. Whatever you say.

[G-Pete]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Everything is about marketing and money and the limited special editions will continue to be sold to the gullible.

That is how it see it too!

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Bernica

Yes, several of them do.
Shelby, Kirkham, ERA, Contemporary, FFR, SPF, Unique, Classic Auto Carriage, Street Beast, Road Serpent , Backdraft to name a few seem to do quite well. I'm sure someone will let me know which ones I forgot to list!

Having been involved in the sale/resale of over 100 cobra replicas to date, I'll strongly disagree with that statement. It is extremely(EXTREMELY) rare in this day and age to come across an original builder/buyer who can get his original investment out of the car at time of resale.


Bill S.