Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[Thor maine]

1/3 of Real ,Or 1/3 genuine knockoff !!!

[LMH]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Someone did, but I would have thought that someone professing to be "an expert" would have known this fact.



The Mexico link is really HST International whose offices were in San Diego and whose manufacturing facility was in Mexico.

The South African "parent" company is Hi-Tech Manufacturing, and they make lots of cars besides Cobras. And they did a few alloy cars along the way (notably, two of the alloy CSX9000 coupes [not the 50th anniversary editions] were built by hand at Hi-Tech. I almost bought one, and Lance said they could build another if asked.

I never professed to be an expert. I do know a fair amount about original Cobras and the learning never stops. Something you could adopt as well.
As I stated before, I don't know as much about the Cobra 427 and even less about the current replicas sold by Shelby or SPF (except the SPF Leaf Spring), hence my posting. If I have questions about replicas from South Africa though, I'll be sure to ask you.
Larry

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by LMH

I never professed to be an expert. I do know a fair amount about original Cobras and the learning never stops. Something you could adopt as well ...

True, true and true. You probably gave AC Cars some credit where credit was due, that doesn't sit well with some as you have seen so they lay in wait, being factual is irrelevant

[Xack]

Mr. Real1, I'm happy for you that you have a real Cobra. You just need everyone to acknowledge you. Congratulations! Ok, the watch, I'm not sure how to answer that because first, its going to be a niche market for Rolex kit buyers in the first place, and I think its ridiculous. But, to your point its a copy. I don't get too excited by determining copies of Rolexes, I'm not in the market. Neither are most on this site in the market for a vintage or continuation Shelby Cobra. I'm not confused if mine is or is not because I'm not going to own one. I do not care if you have a real or copy, neither does anyone else. Now the answer to my question for you is mute. For one you have to be able to fit in a "real" Cobra. You have to be short. Get over it. Nobody really cares if you are tall or short, and you can never compensate by over doing it elsewhere.

[buddyg]

The is really pointless because Evan will never change his mind. What I find comical is Evan always points to the SAAC registry to justify his position, but now has decided if they change things he won't care what they say. LOL

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by 4pipes

It doesn't matter what Evan says. The market price of the cars define what the cognizenty already know. Real Cobras sell for somewhere north of $700k. Aluminum continuation cars sell for about $19-$20k more than Kirkhams they're built on. There, isn't that the elephant in the room? People will pay a little more for a Kirkham if it came from Shelby and has a CSX number. Doesn't make them original cars, just a little more desirable.

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

And the BJ auction in Vegas is confirming that. I'll update my summary tomorrow as the last car crosses the block tonight.

What were the Barrett-Jackson auction results?

[REAL 1]

I'm pissed. I just noticed that the side badge on my Cobra says "Shelby 427 S/C" and my chassis identification says "Shelby American Inc." and my dash plaque from the Shelby American attached to the car says "Shelby Cobra".

I've been duped now that you guys have explained I don't really have a Shelby Cobra.

Does anyone know a good lawyer? I've been had.




BTW Shelby aluminum roller sells for quite a bit more than Kirkhams and incorporate different suspension. Last I checked a Shelby alloy roller is about 1 to 1 1/2 years out and costs $160K for the just the roller. The 50th anniversary aluminum rollers sold I believer for $180K.

Kirkham rollers are $99K last I checked. Shelby Glass rollers are still $20K to $30k more.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by buddyg

The is really pointless because Evan will never change his mind. What I find comical is Evan always points to the SAAC registry to justify his position, but now has decided if they change things he won't care what they say. LOL

No, actually you are incorrect in what I said. I don't point to the Registry as "justification". No, no. I am pointing to the Registry to highlight that they agree with me and I happen to think they are correct in their analysis. I called it long before the 40th Edition Registry came out and long before you and many others were active here. Factually and legally the basic facts are undeniable. The car is a Shelby Cobra.

Cheers.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Xack

Mr. Real1, I'm happy for you that you have a real Cobra. You just need everyone to acknowledge you. Congratulations! Ok, the watch, I'm not sure how to answer that because first, its going to be a niche market for Rolex kit buyers in the first place, and I think its ridiculous. But, to your point its a copy. I don't get too excited by determining copies of Rolexes, I'm not in the market. Neither are most on this site in the market for a vintage or continuation Shelby Cobra. I'm not confused if mine is or is not because I'm not going to own one. I do not care if you have a real or copy, neither does anyone else. Now the answer to my question for you is mute. For one you have to be able to fit in a "real" Cobra. You have to be short. Get over it. Nobody really cares if you are tall or short, and you can never compensate by over doing it elsewhere.

Correct answer: If it comes from and sold by Rolex its a Rolex regardless of completeness on sale. Self evident.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

1/3 of Real ,Or 1/3 genuine knockoff !!!

Yes Thor, whatever you say. Are you sure your percentages are correct.

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I'm pissed. I just noticed that the side badge on my Cobra says "Shelby 427 S/C" and my chassis identification says "Shelby American Inc." and my dash plaque from the Shelby American attached to the car says "Shelby Cobra".

I've been duped now that you guys have explained I don't really have a Shelby Cobra.

Does anyone know a good lawyer? I've been had.

Dearest Evan,

Hmmm, mine says the same thing. I got them on ebay for about $10 per badge/plaque. Total investment, $40. Then I bought a $25k Cobra. I pay a few bucks for insurance and I drive it every chance I get. If I wreck it or it get's stolen, I won't give it a second thought. I'll just go get another one. You see, its just a car.

Best Regards,
Paul F

[twobjshelbys]

Here's the auction results with some updates on the comments. Prices include buyer's premium of 10%. Divide by 1.1 to get hammer price.

Lot 185 (Thursday, mid afternoon*) Arntz. Car was not present yet. Update: Car was a disaster. It looked like it was painted in an open garage during a dust storm. Final price 26,400.

Lot 343 (Friday, late morning) CCX. Car was not present yet. Update: Car was well done with very good paint. 53,900.00

Lot 374 (Friday, early-mid afternoon) Unique. Good looking car. 42,900.00

Lot 395 (Friday, late afternoon) Factory Five. Good looking car. One of the best FFs I've seen. 42,900.00

Lot 424.1 (Friday, late afternoon) SPF(?) car wasn't yet present and docket description doesn't list original mfgr but lists as "rolling chassis" and mentions SPF side pipes. Update: I looked at this and it was a most excellent looking car. I think the buyer will be very happy. 63,800.00

Lot 640.1 (Saturday, late morning) Factory 5. Car was there. But wheels and engine are clearly "custom". I think the deviation from "cobraness" hurt this one alot. 29,150.00

Lot 720 (Saturday, late afternoon, early evening) Shelby CSX4000. Nice looking example located in showcase area. Update: I was on the block for this. This Cobra was a pair from the same owner that also sold a Series 1 just before. They really hyped the Series 1 but it felt to me that they took time down on the Cobra after the Series 1 to keep time on track. It is repainted to the S1 color. 82,500.00

Lot 735 [correct lot number] (Saturday, late afternoon-early evening) Shelby CSX6124 (new from Planet Cobra, Stephen Becker). It is a new car. Update: To me this was the best prepared car, but it is brand new. 134,200.00

Lot 752.1 (Saturday early evening) Shelby CSX4380. Nice looking car. 74,800.00


So, Shelby branded cars get high prices.

But what matters most is quality. Build an excellent <anything> and your work is rewarded.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Paul F

My Dearest Evan,

It is with warm regards that I continue this intelligent discussion about cars made to look like the 1960s car called Cobra.

Yours is a replica. It is not a real one.

With best wishes to your and your family,
Paul f

Paul:

Thank you for your kind reply. Your depth of analysis to the subject at hand reflects honest effort on your part although still somewhat askew of a true path to the correct answer. While it is true my car does "replicate" the original Cobra and is the only "true replica" as defined by the esteemed Marriam Webster as it must to be a Cobra nevertheless and at the same time it's origins from Shelby American Inc., legally and factually render it an undeniable Shelby Cobra. It is not of the original grouping of Shelby Cobras that were issued from SAI between '62 and '68 of course but of the current production Continuation Series Shelby Cobras issued from SAI. Same car by shape, design and configuration coming from a direct successor company from the man who brought the original to us here in the good ol' US of A.

And let me be the first to assuage your concerns that I attempt to beguile you and others as to it's series and it's grouping. I do not misdirect on this issue to inquires but at the same time am completely proud of the fact it is a genuine Shelby Cobra of the Continuation series. To some it may not rise to the level of being a "real Cobra" ,however, this emotional reaction is pursued to escape reality such as an Ostrich escapes reality by placing it's noggin below ground.

Nor do I hold it to be self evident that the Shelby Cobra is better that all others mechanically or in design. This cannot be said universally. The original cars have much to be desired in build quality. if build quality is the criteria many FFRs are better than an original IMHO. I have seen better tubing on lawn chairs than on the original cars. What is "better" rests within our own subjective belief system. However, if your criteria is to own a Shelby no other manufacturers car will satisfy that criteria which is self evident. So if owning a Shelby is "better" to an enthusiast only one car will satisfy that "itch".

The World Registry, a world wide recognized authoritative text agrees with my analysis and states hand in hand what I have said for years.

I was ahead of the Registry in this regard.

You of course may hold true to you own personal beliefs which I suspect is rooted in emotion perhaps tinged with slight bitterness and I don't pretend to believe I will get ever concessions from you or the other nah sayers but my statements are logical, factual and supported by legal authority. Oh, and the World Registry.

Please also send my warmest to your family and loved ones.

I remain,

Very truly yours,

Real 1, (aka Evan)

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

By the way, don't feel too jilted. Check the docket for all of those absolutely beautiful new vintage (20xx) Bentleys and compare their original MSRP to when/where the car is scheduled and estimate the value. Last year they were going for <1/3.

Smattering of prices:

1998 Bentley Azure convertible: 49500
2004 Bentley Continental GT 41800
2007 Bentley Flying Spur 80300
2005 Bentley Continental GT 62700
2007 Bentley Azure Convertible 104500 (MSRP over 338K from the listing!)
2013 Bentley Mulsanne Sedan 178200
2001 Bentley Azure Convertible 77000
1999 Bentley Azure Convertible 66000
1998 Bentley Azure Convertible 49500
2005 Bentley Continental GT 94600
2005 Bentley Continental GT 71500 (over 175K new)

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Here's the auction results with some updates on the comments. Prices include buyer's premium of 10%. Divide by 1.1 to get hammer price ...

Thanks for the info.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Paul F

Dearest Evan,

Hmmm, mine says the same thing. I got them on ebay for about $10 per badge/plaque. Total investment, $40. Then I bought a $25k Cobra. I pay a few bucks for insurance and I drive it every chance I get. If I wreck it or it get's stolen, I won't give it a second thought. I'll just go get another one. You see, its just a car.

Best Regards,
Paul F

My dear Paul: I have not the slightest doubt your badging says the same as mine. None. However, the crucial difference is mine came from SAI badged that way. I didn't have to put them on.

Yes, they are just cars I agree with your astute observation. Drove mine yesterday and enjoyed every minute of it. Have almost 8200 miles on it. Have it insured for replacement value at $240K so if it gets crunched I can get another Shelby.

Too bad you don't live local. Would be happy to go on a cruise with you.

Going a FFR cruise soon with a club.

Cheers.

[Paul F]

Dearest Evan,

It brings great joy to me on this fine day that you and I are in full agreement that your most-excellent car is indeed a 100% genuine Shelby American Cobra.

I agree that no one who is knowledgeable in the field of Cobras would be misled in regards to your fine automobile's lineage. They would understand the distinction between the CSX4xxx and CSX3xxx series. However, a person not knowledgeable in the field of Cobras would misconstrue a license plate or a statement that said it is a real one. While such a statement may be true in one context, it is misleading in the context of the question being asked.

Of course, your ClubCobra moniker also brings one to engage you in conversation on these points.

As to bitterness, quite the contrary. I am always pleased to see that there are those that have the where-with-all to spend money on such luxury items. Of particular delight is to see a Cobra crammed with a cammer. Then there is the unique case of the million dollar billet Kirkham. Wonderful stuff.

My real interest is a 1959-1961 Corvette. But alas, I have five friends with that very car. Their concerns of damage and other concerns are at such a level that they do not drive their cars. I felt that I would be no different. I wanted a car I would drive, not look at. So I bought a cheap Cobra so that I would have no concerns in this regard. To date, that has been the case.

Kindest Regards,
Paul F

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

... The World Registry, a world wide recognized authoritative text agrees with my analysis and states hand in hand what I have said for years.

I was ahead of the Registry in this regard ...

Good to know, I hope they mentioned you in the credits section as the man who came up with the Registry "outline". By default that makes you on board with the Registry's definitions and classifications true?

Originally Posted by RodKnock

... Page 708 states "This left true replicas-like Shelby's CSX4000's-to come up with another name to describe themselves. Because he did not want his cars devalued by using the term 'replica', Shelby chose 'Component Cobra'. This separated his cars from all the rest, the riff-raff..."

Or how about page 23 "...presently there are more Cobra-like vehicles being built, some built by Carroll Shelby himself..."

And later on the same page (page 23): "Any type of Cobra-like vehicle, from CSX3000 completion cars to the CSX 4000/7000/8000 component Cobras, to AC MKIVs. to Kirkham Cobras..." ...

I agree they got it right too, we're good here, carry on good peeps, carry on.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Good to know, I hope they mentioned you in the credits section as the man who came up with the Registry "outline". By default that makes you on board with the Registry's definitions and classifications true?



I agree they got it right too, we're good here, carry on good peeps, carry on.

No I wasn't mentioned in the credits but I was ahead of the issue and got it right.

Again, Rodknock you are taking snipets out of context but I'lll let you keep doing that if it makes you feel better. Like someone here said if you squint hard enough I guess it says what you would like it to say rather than what it does say when you read it in context and full.

But hey, whatever makes you happy.

[Joe's Garage]

The registry is only following what Carroll Shebly has already said regarding his replica's -

"Mr. Shelby identified the replicas of the Cobra 427
S/C with the designation CSX 4000.
Shelby has sold the Cobra replica kits for $50,000 to
$150,000."
Testimony from the Judge Walsh Ruling on Trade Dress

We're good here, carry on good peeps.