Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[REAL 1]

Guys: Thanks. Appreciate the kind words. Yeah, it was a great day for a fall drive. Perfect temp and the leaves were great. A real fall afternoon.

[ASO544]

That is surely one bad ass cobra. I like the Shelby way more than the Kirkman.......
of course I like both of them way more than my BDR but I was lucky to afford the BDR so both of those gems are out of my reach.

The CSX 4000 series in aluminum will be mine if I hit the lottery!!!!

[Thor maine]

That looks like a Real one next to that black Kit Car!!! (PS, it sure is a beautiful kit car)

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

That looks like a Real one next to that black Kit Car!!! (PS, it sure is a beautiful kit car)

Well let's be honest. They're both kit cars.
Neither company can deliver a factory "car". Just a kit.
Some kit cars just come more complete than others.

There's no shame in that.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by JoeT

just curious. what do we consider these?

A factory delivered Shelby.
As opposed to the CSX4s etc which are a factory delivered kit from shelby.

Yes or no?

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Dimis

A factory delivered Shelby.
As opposed to the CSX4s etc which are a factory delivered kit from shelby.

Yes or no?

No.

plus some extra babble for the forum

[Al G]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

That looks like a Real one next to that black Kit Car!!! (PS, it sure is a beautiful kit car)

So you think the Kirkham is real and the Shelby is not? Please explain that twisted logic.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by ASO544

That is surely one bad ass cobra. I like the Shelby way more than the Kirkman.......
of course I like both of them way more than my BDR but I was lucky to afford the BDR so both of those gems are out of my reach.

The CSX 4000 series in aluminum will be mine if I hit the lottery!!!!

You do realize the Kirkham and Shelby are the same car, except the Shelby has a heavier suspension, and cost twice as much... lol

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

No.

plus some extra babble for the forum

If you'd be so kind, pls explain why so.
Curious...

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Dimis

If you'd be so kind, pls explain why so.
Curious...

Well you asked for a yes or no and I gave it to you. If you had said yes or no and justify your response I wouldn't have responded. The difference between a poll and an essay question. But when u vote I don't have to justify it.

[ASO544]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

You do realize the Kirkham and Shelby are the same car, except the Shelby has a heavier suspension, and cost twice as much... lol

Yep....just not a bare aluminum fan.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by ASO544

That is surely one bad ass cobra. I like the Shelby way more than the Kirkman.......
of course I like both of them way more than my BDR but I was lucky to afford the BDR so both of those gems are out of my reach.

The CSX 4000 series in aluminum will be mine if I hit the lottery!!!!

ASO544: Thank you. What's really important is the enthusiasm for the hobby, Cobra lore and history. That's important because without developing that in upcoming generations the car could be resigned to being lost to history and revered by only a small population of old fogies.

My Son and even my daughters know quite a bit about Shelby, Shelby Cobras and their history. More so than the common Joe, that's for sure.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

You do realize the Kirkham and Shelby are the same car, except the Shelby has a heavier suspension, and cost twice as much... lol

Do you realize that an AC Cobra and a Shelby Cobra are the same car except that the Shelby has the same exact suspension and costs more than twice as much?

And your point is ??????? Oh, wait, yes, yes, you have finally hit on something. The Shelby name, moniker has quite a bit of inherent value. Could that be your point????

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Well let's be honest. They're both kit cars.
Neither company can deliver a factory "car". Just a kit.
Some kit cars just come more complete than others.

There's no shame in that.

No, actually that's not being honest. You as others want to apply the general definition of "kit car" that applies to an entire range of cars such as Gazelles, Meyer Manx Dune buggies, Beck Spyders etc...The general definition of Kit Car applies to all those cars whose manufacturer does not complete the manufacture of the car, sells the uncompleted car to and leaves the completion to a third party. This process exists primarily because of Federal safety and emission regulations and standards that creeped up on the motoring public in the late 60's. Even Carroll Shelby was noted to have remarked he could not continue production as he did and could not continue to build what he wanted to build as a result of growing restrictive Federal Regulations.

If you apply the generic "Kit Car" definition as used by dictionaries and generally by various states DMV for registration purposes in fact, and I hate to break it to the gang here but the original Cobra today would be a "Kit Car" applying the dictionary or DMV definitions. It would follow the same and have to follow the same process as a Superformance for example in order for SAI to continue (wow! just stumbled into that word, interesting, no?) production of the car. If anyone thinks that if production continued today of the original series Cobra just as it was built, configured and designed without "changes" could leave SAI powered up and ready to go to dealers and end users please explain how this could be accomplished. Would love to learn.

So by todays standards the original 2000 and 3000 series cars would have to be "Kit Cars" in order to continue to be produced and sold. Irrefutable.

I and the vast majority of other Shelby Cobra owners apply and go by the SAAC definitions of "Kit Car and Replica" since this definition applies specifically and germanely to this hobby and these cars and style cars. It is the definition that applies to our world of Cobras. Not a generic definition that applies to everything from Gazelles to Dune Buggies for registration purposes and as noted to original series cars today if SAI was still popping them out uninterrupted. Shelby Cobras original series or Continuation series do NOT fall in the SAAC definition of "Kit Car or Replica". I know you are all disappointed.

Joe Blow generally uses the term "kit and replica" to ask is that a fake. When asked if my car is a "replica or a kit" I say "no, its a genuine Shelby Cobra. A continuation series Cobra." Its not a fake Shelby Cobra nor is it a replica of a Shelby Cobra. It is a Shelby Cobra. If asked if its an "original car/Cobra", I say no. I tell them its a Continuation Series Shelby Cobra. My answers are based on the World Registry not DMV. Very simple, honest, direct and easy actually.

I'm sure you guys will "keep "twisting" things in order to jam a square peg into a round hole.

Have at it. I've got my Registry right here on my desk.

[Al G]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

You do realize the Kirkham and Shelby are the same car, except the Shelby has a heavier suspension, and cost twice as much... lol

Evan - how much of your car was built by Kirkham? I know the 50th anniversary cars are almost 100% Kirkham but I don't think that was the case for the earlier cars.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Al G

Evan - how much of your car was built by Kirkham? I know the 50th anniversary cars are almost 100% Kirkham but I don't think that was the case for the earlier cars.

Al, the only parts of my car that are Kirkham are the body and frame. All other components including brakes, wiring, plumbing, suspension, headlights, brake light lenses and everything else are from Shelby American. My car is an early alloy car having been constructed in or about 1999/2000. Alloy cars were an option made available a year or so after glass cars were being produced. As Bill Andrews at HRE advised me, back in those days SAI was still using a lot of NOS parts like original seat rails, Girling brakes, original style suspension, Hardy Spicer half shafts, trim parts etc... They wised up later and stopped using NOS stuff that they had in storage and used fabricated parts, Willwood brakes etc... all good stuff but stepped away from NOS stuff.

Bottom line a Shelby is a Shelby.

When you compare my friend's Kirkham to my Shelby, the suspension, brakes etc, etc.... are different.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Dimis

If you'd be so kind, pls explain why so.
Curious...

My summary is found within Evan's response. Joe's Garage has (if he really does) a kit car - a pile of pieces and parts arrive in boxes and are assembled by the owner. Some are beautiful, some look awful.

Kirkham, Shelby, Superformance (and occasionally, Backdraft and Factory Five and ERA and others) produce "finished rollers" - the only missing parts are the engines and that is mandated by the Feds in the US. I don't call those a kit.

My car, being sent to Mexico, was a fully completed with engine car, finished by HST in Mexico. It was not a kit.

There is legislation pending that will allow classic vehicles (Cobras, among others) to be fully finished by the manufacturer. Under that legislation Shelby, Kirkham, Superformance, ERA etc COULD build a completed vehicle, engine and all. [This has been discussed elsewhere, but so far none of the above have indicated they will be doing so if the legislation passes.] What are you going to call those?

Bottom line, is you are choosing one definition of "kit" that proves your point, I'm using another.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Al, the only parts of my car that are Kirkham are the body and frame. All other components including brakes, wiring, plumbing, suspension, headlights, brake light lenses and everything else are from Shelby American. My car is an early alloy car having been constructed in or about 1999/2000. Alloy cars were an option made available a year or so after glass cars were being produced. As Bill Andrews at HRE advised me, back in those days SAI was still using a lot of NOS parts like original seat rails, Girling brakes, original style suspension, Hardy Spicer half shafts, trim parts etc... They wised up later and stopped using NOS stuff that they had in storage and used fabricated parts, Willwood brakes etc... all good stuff but stepped away from NOS stuff.

Bottom line a Shelby is a Shelby.

When you compare my friend's Kirkham to my Shelby, the suspension, brakes etc, etc.... are different.

And Kirkham built CSX cars of that era were splashed from a different base and contained no interchangeable parts.

The registry probably contains the cutoff point from when the Vegas built cars (which were mostly done in the prison north of the city) transitioned to the Kirkhams.

[Jamo]

Evan...cool it ("Joe Blow").

Everyone keep the discussion attack/name calling free or you will disappear without notice.

[Joe's Garage]

The idea for Kirkham Motorsports started in 1994 with the mission to build the finest replicas in the world.
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How does one "un-replica" a replica?