Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[LMH]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I can't explain a fire sale price for an aluminum bodied Shelby at $150K but that car sold for the same price as a glass Shelby 427 which sold for approximately the same number at $148K on the same cite.

So what are the current sales of COB or COX cars? Way off the price of Shelbys of the same vintage for sure.

You don't read well. Look at my previous reply to RK.
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ERANJ

May have to fact check this....is that any different than Chrysler going bankrupt being acquired by Fiat (not sure how the stock changed?) and essentially Chrylser corperation become a new company. So, the original company (CJD) no longer makes the Dodge Challenger replicas?

And the Challengers built using different materials (since the 1970s) by a different company (original Dodge) in a different era and delivered to the consumer in a considerably different fashion is a REPLICA Challenger. Both come with MSO form Dodge/Camaro and Shelby.

Only one that would hold true is Ford with Shelby Mustang GT350/500 or GT40 for that matter.

First, you need to check back about 10-20 pages for the Dodge Challenger Analogy. AFAIK, there aren't any companies making replicas of the 1970 Dodge Challenger. So, it's a hypothetical. If Dodge, Fiat or Ferrari wanted to make a replica of a 1970 Dodge Challenger, then it would be replica. Not only would the company be different, the materials used would be different, the car would NOT meet Federal safety and emission standards and couldn't be sold as a complete with registration and warranty. It's 45 years after the original and would be a kit car. Just like the Shelby Cobra replica.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by ERANJ

Yes let the facts speak for themselves an original ID tag for CSX3279 not an invoice to the manfacturer.

Not sure how to post a photo however the attached link to Canepa has an original VIN tag stating SAI as the manufacturer.

1967 Shelby Cobra 427_5075

I imagine CSX3279 came off the AC invoice, and also was stamped on the chassis somewhere. Shelby did what he does so well, badged it as his own to sell in the US. Remember, Shelby was no saint when it comes to marketing his cars ...

In 1993 the Los Angeles Times exposed a Carroll Shelby scheme to "Counterfeit" his own cars. With the price of an original 427 c.i. Cobra skyrocketing, Shelby had, by his own written declaration executed under penalty of perjury, caused the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the government agency responsible for titling vehicles and issuing operator permits) to utter forty-three "Duplicate Titles" for vehicles that did not officially exist in company records. A letter from AC Cars confirmed the fact that the chassis numbers Shelby had obtained titles for were never manufactured, at least by AC Cars. Only fifty-five 427 c.i. Cobras had been originally produced out of a block of serial numbers reserved for 100 vehicles. Shelby had taken advantage of a loophole in the California system that allowed one to obtain a duplicate title for a vehicle only on a written declaration, without the vehicle identification number appearing in the DMV's database or the declarant ever presenting an actual vehicle for inspection. Shelby later admitted that the chassis had been manufactured in 1991 and '92 by McCluskey Ltd, an engineering firm in Torrance, California, and were not authentic AC chassis.

I'll side with the facts that AC provided Shelby a near complete car less engine and transmission which Shelby installed. I'll also side with historians who say the Cobra resulted from a collaborative effort between Ford, AC Cars Ltd and Shelby - all being contributors.

Evan, you love to say "It was CS and SAI that directed and requested the vast majority of changes to the chassis to get to the "Cobra" chassis." Please post a link that documents that information, as you know your credibility is highly suspect and this would be a good opportunity to improve on that perception.

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

First, you need to check back about 10-20 pages for the Dodge Challenger Analogy. AFAIK, there aren't any companies making replicas of the 1970 Dodge Challenger. So, it's a hypothetical. If Dodge, Fiat or Ferrari wanted to make a replica of a 1970 Dodge Challenger, then it would be replica. Not only would the company be different, the materials used would be different, the car would NOT meet Federal safety and emission standards and couldn't be sold as a complete with registration and warranty. It's 45 years after the original and would be a kit car. Just like the Shelby Cobra replica.

I had not looked at the earlier post on the Challenger analogy but was looking at the parallels. As a hypothetical, if Dodge manufactured the chassis in 2015 (original manfactures, components, etc., is not relevant) and for argument sake offered the rolling car without the engine because they offered an OTC 426 Hemi for the customer to install it would be a kit or replica? I'm not disputing the warrantee, etc. but don't see how you can call it a replica based on the emission requirements. Who dictates that as a replica even more so with the MSO, Challenger VIN sequence? Based on your logic I see the Challenger and Shelby as geniune, authentic, whatever term you make like to state but not a replica. It's a product that was made by the manufacturer.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by ERANJ

I had not looked at the earlier post on the Challenger analogy but was looking at the parallels. As a hypothetical, if Dodge manufactured the chassis in 2015 (original manfactures, components, etc., is not relevant) and for argument sake offered the rolling car without the engine because they offered an OTC 426 Hemi for the customer to install it would be a kit or replica? I'm not disputing the warrantee, etc. but don't see how you can call it a replica based on the emission requirements. Who dictates that as a replica even more so with the MSO, Challenger VIN sequence? Based on your logic I see the Challenger and Shelby as geniune, authentic, whatever term you make like to state but not a replica. It's a product that was made by the manufacturer.

All new Shelby's come from either Kirkham, Hi-Tech, or HST, only, so its not a product made by the manufacturer...not from ford not from Shelby not from ac...

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

I imagine CSX3279 came off the AC invoice, and also was stamped on the chassis somewhere. Shelby did what he does so well, badged it as his own to sell in the US. Remember, Shelby was no saint when it comes to marketing his cars ...

In 1993 the Los Angeles Times exposed a Carroll Shelby scheme to "Counterfeit" his own cars. With the price of an original 427 c.i. Cobra skyrocketing, Shelby had, by his own written declaration executed under penalty of perjury, caused the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the government agency responsible for titling vehicles and issuing operator permits) to utter forty-three "Duplicate Titles" for vehicles that did not officially exist in company records. A letter from AC Cars confirmed the fact that the chassis numbers Shelby had obtained titles for were never manufactured, at least by AC Cars. Only fifty-five 427 c.i. Cobras had been originally produced out of a block of serial numbers reserved for 100 vehicles. Shelby had taken advantage of a loophole in the California system that allowed one to obtain a duplicate title for a vehicle only on a written declaration, without the vehicle identification number appearing in the DMV's database or the declarant ever presenting an actual vehicle for inspection. Shelby later admitted that the chassis had been manufactured in 1991 and '92 by McCluskey Ltd, an engineering firm in Torrance, California, and were not authentic AC chassis.

I'll side with the facts that AC provided Shelby a near complete car less engine and transmission which Shelby installed. I'll also side with historians who say the Cobra resulted from a collaborative effort between Ford, AC Cars Ltd and Shelby - all being contributors.

Evan, you love to say "It was CS and SAI that directed and requested the vast majority of changes to the chassis to get to the "Cobra" chassis." Please post a link that documents that information, as you know your credibility is highly suspect and this would be a good opportunity to improve on that perception.

I'll side with the facts that AC provided Shelby a near complete car less engine and transmission which Shelby installed. I'll also side with historians who say the Cobra resulted from a collaborative effort between Ford, AC Cars Ltd and Shelby - all being contributors.

Joe, to your logic underlined, you can draw the comparison between AC Cars (supplied/"manufactured" rollers to Shelby to install engine and trans to a dealer Shelby then to the customer. What is the distinction between SIA (supplying/manufacture) the near complete car to Bendeste for example. Does that make the CSX 3000 cars something different other than what the manfacture states it is, a kit to start and assembled by SAI? SAI manfactured the CSX4000/6000 which I see as a near car minus drive train based on emissions, etc. Aplogizes if this has already been covred in earlier threads.

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

All new Shelby's come from either Kirkham, Hi-Tech, or HST, only, so its not a product made by the manufacturer...not from ford not from Shelby not from ac...

Not all manufacturers make every component of a car. I would assume a large majority of the body components are outsourced. A.O. Smith for example, made the body for Corvette and I'm sure bodies are made today by other manfacturers for auto manufacturers. Who made the body is irrelavent to and does not define it as a replica.

[ERANJ]

Take care guys getting late here and have to earn a living tomorrow. Enjoyed the discussion.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ERANJ

I had not looked at the earlier post on the Challenger analogy but was looking at the parallels. As a hypothetical, if Dodge manufactured the chassis in 2015 (original manfactures, components, etc., is not relevant) and for argument sake offered the rolling car without the engine because they offered an OTC 426 Hemi for the customer to install it would be a kit or replica? I'm not disputing the warrantee, etc. but don't see how you can call it a replica based on the emission requirements. Who dictates that as a replica even more so with the MSO, Challenger VIN sequence? Based on your logic I see the Challenger and Shelby as geniune, authentic, whatever term you make like to state but not a replica. It's a product that was made by the manufacturer.

Since it's not original, it must be a replica. Only the original can be genuine or authentic. Anything built later will clone or replicate the original. You can call it a genuine replica or true replica, if you must, but it's an oxymoron.

The VIN sequence is meaningless, since even CSBI will producing the "competition" ("Resurrection") replicas with leftover CSX3000 numbers. These are replicas as well and the sequence will follow the original CSX3000 series cars. Also, modern cars use 17-digit VIN #'s, which weren't used in the mid-1960's.

Further the Shelby replica uses different components. So it's not an exact replica. As one example, the Shelby replica uses a thicker Kirkham body (0.059" vs. 0.500") and today's aluminum has a different metallurgical content than the mid-1960's. Also, Kirkham has automated the metal shaping and cutting process beyond even what they used to build my Kirkham in 2007.

Seriously, many pages ago, I summarized all the analogies used to prove the Shelby isn't a replica. We talked about Van Halen & Journey bands touring without their original lead singers, The Car Manufacturer Analogy (above), Watches (Rolexes), and several others.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Please. If anyone has info on COB or COX sales post them please. I'm willing to bet those numbers are waaaay below Shelbys of the same vintage.

But that wasn't your earlier point. Your earlier point was that the Shelby CSX4000 values are approaching COB values. And they're clearly not. CSX4000's at $150,000 does not equal the COB's value of around $800,000, give or take $50,000.

The relationship between the values of the Shelby and COB Cobra is just more schtick by you to insult Ned. Not cool. Not cool at all.

[REAL 1]

Some "spoon feeding" before beddy bye. Not that it will help but here goes.

Open wide....

4th Edition World Registry of Cobras & GT40s.

A. Every effort has been made to insure that everything printed in this book is as accurate as possible.....Any inaccuracies brought to our attention will be corrected in the next edition. (Note to Ned and the sour grapes bunch....write to them now)

B. This Registry is the end result of more than 30 years of in-depth research, information collecting and various attempts at verification of these cars. All of this has been done by a small number of supremely dediccates enthusiasts whose only reward is the knowledge that they have worked to the best of their abilities to produce something that solidifies the history of the cars created by Shelby American and the companies affiliated with it. ....As a totality it defines waht Cobras and Ford GTs are and specifically identifies the ones fit that definition. (Hey, whatdya know my Cobra is listed in there!!!)

C. Each Cobra carries a unique serial number allow authentic cars to be easily identified. By keeping track of these serial numbers as well as individual histories and chain of ownership of the cars, registrars are able to assist club members in telling the difference between real cars and fake ones. (Continuation Cobras have their own Registrar, Kevin Rodgers..I guess we don't need him...hey Kevin, your fired.)

D. The second reason why the number of fake Cobras has been greatly reduced is taht Shelby is now offering a new generation of Cobra roadsters. No one is seriously attempting to convince anyone taht these cars are "originals"-that is to say, they are the same cars built and sold between 1962 and 1968. But they are very close, mechanically and cosmetically, and they are built by Carroll Shelby. So while not "original"", they are authentic.

E. As soon as the first fiberglass bodied Cobra kits were built, they were being called "replicas". This is not really an accurate description because they are not by definition, replicas. Webster's dictionary defines, "replica" as ...1) a reproduction or copy of a work of art; especially a copy made by the maker of the original 2) any very close reproduction or facsimile".....By this definition AC Cars was quite correct to refer to the race cars they built on chassis numbers 2136, 2137, 2138, 2154, 2156 and 2157 as "LeMans Replicas". Likewise, kit cars are definitely not very close reproductions of the original Cobra. ...Calling them "replicas" is a misuse of the word. But like toothpaste, once out it is impossible to get back int eh tube. So we're stuck with the label "Cobra replica".

F. SAAC has established some working definitions for describing Cobras because most descriptions are written by the cars' owners, some of whom are not above acting in their own self interest. (Seems like some Registrars/curators have that same problem).

G. -Kit car or Replica. Any car with a body which approximates the original Cobra shape, using any kind of frame, suspension, brakes or driveline.

-CSX4000. Current Production Cobras built by Shelby to more or less original 427 SC standards; delivered without engine and transmission.

H. Production figures for Cobras as of publishing printed on page 31 which include production for Continuation Cobras.

I. As to the creation of the original Cobra....." Shelbys new car may have resembled the AC's old one but there was a world of difference under the skin."...." A list of changes were was made and sent to AC Cars with eh order to modify the chassis as indicated and commence production"

J. Rem has been variously described as a mechanic, fabricator and engineer but he is an engineering genius who solved every problem that cropped up on the Cobras-both production and race cars.

K. As Shelby began to settle into the role of manufacturer, he discovered a myriad of problems to be solved and obstacles to be overcome: sourcing and obtaining parts; completing cars as they arrived; building a dealer network, creating marketing and advertising campaign. Cobras were shipped by boat from AC Cars without engines, radiators, transmissions or driveshafts to save import duties, which were higher on finished cars than on complete ones (Sounds like the kit car of it's day to me based on the definition of many on this cite)

L. Under contract from Shelby Americanl, AC Cars Ltd. in England produced Cobra chassis and AC either manufactured or subcontracted most the other components that went to make up the CSX series Cobras.

M. Shelby American, as a corporate entity, was in more or less continuous operation ever since the Los Angeles airport facility was closed down in the fall of 1967.

Hey, I didn't say the above SAAC did. Take it up with those potatoes.

Good night.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Sometimes, it just comes down to what somebody else has posted.

Yes, AC applied the Shelby VIN to their supplied component. So what is your point? It would be illegal for them to have applied anything else.

I'll bet when Multimatic makes the new Ford GT carbon fiber tubs for Ford they have a Ford VIN stamped in them too.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by jhv48

I was visiting the sacc forum a while ago and none of those guys seem to have any problem referring to their cars as replicas nor do they consider their cars to be originals.

Guess it's just Evan.

Evan would be shredded by the members of the SAAC Forum, if he claimed his car was a genuine Shelby Cobra.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

I imagine CSX3279 came off the AC invoice, and also was stamped on the chassis somewhere. Shelby did what he does so well, badged it as his own to sell in the US. Remember, Shelby was no saint when it comes to marketing his cars ...

In 1993 the Los Angeles Times exposed a Carroll Shelby scheme to "Counterfeit" his own cars. With the price of an original 427 c.i. Cobra skyrocketing, Shelby had, by his own written declaration executed under penalty of perjury, caused the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the government agency responsible for titling vehicles and issuing operator permits) to utter forty-three "Duplicate Titles" for vehicles that did not officially exist in company records. A letter from AC Cars confirmed the fact that the chassis numbers Shelby had obtained titles for were never manufactured, at least by AC Cars. Only fifty-five 427 c.i. Cobras had been originally produced out of a block of serial numbers reserved for 100 vehicles. Shelby had taken advantage of a loophole in the California system that allowed one to obtain a duplicate title for a vehicle only on a written declaration, without the vehicle identification number appearing in the DMV's database or the declarant ever presenting an actual vehicle for inspection. Shelby later admitted that the chassis had been manufactured in 1991 and '92 by McCluskey Ltd, an engineering firm in Torrance, California, and were not authentic AC chassis.

I'll side with the facts that AC provided Shelby a near complete car less engine and transmission which Shelby installed. I'll also side with historians who say the Cobra resulted from a collaborative effort between Ford, AC Cars Ltd and Shelby - all being contributors.

Evan, you love to say "It was CS and SAI that directed and requested the vast majority of changes to the chassis to get to the "Cobra" chassis." Please post a link that documents that information, as you know your credibility is highly suspect and this would be a good opportunity to improve on that perception.

Uh, I don't post links. I post facts and info from the World Registry. . I've read it have you?

You might learn something and not have to rely on what your anti Shelby gang post which for the most part is hooey anyway.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by mullen2

Jaguar Brings the 1964 E-Type Racer Back to Life - WSJ

Love the E-Type! Follow the above link and watch it being built. I would bet the 6 New cars are better built than the originals. Man would I like to get my hands on one of them.

Beautiful car and I've always loved them, but they're not original and therefore replicas. Replicas built by Jaguar.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Evan would be shredded by the members of the SAAC Forum, if he claimed his car was a genuine Shelby Cobra.

I'm over there all the time. I've got 0 problems with those guys. Disappointed? Yeah, the owners of the originals have an issue but candidly they can kiss my arse. Most continuation owners see it as I do.
Even if they didn't couldn't care less either. Facts is facts. Parts is parts.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I'm over there all the time. I've got 0 problems with those guys. Disappointed? Yeah, the owners of the originals have an issue but candidly they can kiss my arse. Most continuation owners see it as I do.
Even if they didn't couldn't care less either. Facts is facts. Parts is parts.

Yes, I'm a member over there too. And you don't pull the same BS there as you do here. That's why you have 0 problems. No surprise there.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Beautiful car and I've always loved them, but they're not original and therefore replicas. Replicas built by Jaguar.

You are welcome to that opinion but I'm sure if you said that to one of those owners you would be excused from the meeting. The MSO from Jaguar will state otherwise. I'll bet your opinion would just break the heart of one of those 6 lucky people and make them turn into a babbling bowl of jelly and cause the to fall on a sword.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Yes, I'm a member over there too. And you don't pull the same BS there as you do here. That's why you have 0 problems. No surprise there.

Yeah, because there are no issues over there with guys suffering from sour grape syndrome knocking the continuation Cobras as mere replicas and not genuine Cobras.

That was easy.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

You are welcome to that opinion but I'm sure if you said that to one of those owners you would be excused from the meeting. The MSO from Jaguar will state otherwise. I'll bet your opinion would just break the heart of one of those 6 lucky people and make them turn into a babbling bowl of jelly and cause the to fall on a sword.

Gee thats funny. I don't think he would be too welcome at a meeting of Continuation Cobra owners either. Hmmm.