Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Maybe if you would expand your vocabulary a little bit. Add Continuation to it.


So, how about those Jaguars? Go ahead, try to convince Jag that they are making "replicas". If it works here, it has to work there too.


So how about those Jaguars?

According to Motor Trend Magazine, the remaining 6 Jaguars are constructed exactly as the originals. Same welds, same frame, same parts, same factory, same rivets. Every detail is an exact copy of the originals. So a comparison to the modern Shelby cobra is a moot point.
And, the remaining 6 are referred to as continuation cars. Not originals, continuations.
Now, as to how the owners of one of these continuation cars refers to his car remains to be seen. It is an EXACT copy of the original, indistinguishable from an original.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by Jamo

... and assolutely the very first with fat-ass interior modification pkg to fit my fat ass in it...akin to a Gurney bubble in my mind.

You mean the "Jamo bubbles"?
What does that do to the value?

[Jamo]

So, modern CSX Cobras are real, genuine Shelby cars, every bit as much as a Shelby Lancer or a 260ci original Cobra. Yup, I can agree to that. Not all Shelby products are created equal...some are badging nightmares [See reference to Shelby Lancer, supra], some are historical icons [See reference to 260ci original Cobra, supra], and some are incomplete, as delivered from the factory, beautiful exacting replicas of the more significant Shelby cars...such as the modern CSXs. No problem with them being valued significantly higher than other Cobra replicas, or being held in such high regard. Worth every damn penny the market will bear in my opinion.

So what?

[Jamo]

RodKniock and DosShelbys...knock it off please.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Jamo

So, modern CSX Cobras are real, genuine Shelby cars, every bit as much as a Shelby Lancer or a 260ci original Cobra. Yup, I can agree to that. Not all Shelby products are created equal...some are badging nightmares [See reference to Shelby Lancer, supra], some are historical icons [See reference to 260ci original Cobra, supra], and some are incomplete, as delivered from the factory, beautiful exacting replicas of the more significant Shelby cars...such as the modern CSXs. No problem with them being valued significantly higher than other Cobra replicas, or being held in such high regard. Worth every damn penny the market will bear in my opinion.

So what?

So what? With all of the circular discussions, and your absolutely factual and correct summary of all of the circular discussions, everything that can be said has been said.

I move to adjourn.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by rodneym

You mean the "Jamo bubbles"?
What does that do to the value?

Increases the hell out of it...I venture to say far beyond any increase derived from Evan's rivets, for example.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Jamo

So, modern CSX Cobras are real, genuine Shelby cars, every bit as much as a Shelby Lancer or a 260ci original Cobra. Yup, I can agree to that. Not all Shelby products are created equal...some are badging nightmares [See reference to Shelby Lancer, supra], some are historical icons [See reference to 260ci original Cobra, supra], and some are incomplete, as delivered from the factory, beautiful exacting replicas of the more significant Shelby cars...such as the modern CSXs. No problem with them being valued significantly higher than other Cobra replicas, or being held in such high regard. Worth every damn penny the market will bear in my opinion.

So what?

Yeah. Thats a fair statement. Correcto. Thank you.

See guys, he didn't explode, croak, or fall suddenly ill with stomach pains, no ones rushing to have him involuntarily committed and the world is still here. The birds are still chirping and life goes on. Ahhh. Nice. No????

Now that that's settled I second the motion to adjourn.

[Nedsel]

I am honestly beginning to wonder if anyone here actually bothers to read the various posts that they comment about. Where did I say the CSX 4000-series cars were not replicas of the 60's Cobras? Nowhere. That has been my point all along: they are later replicas of a 1965 Cobra. They are NOT 1965 Cobras, no matter what your MSO or title may say. Hence they are different.

Are they Shelby Cobras? Of course. Once again, I have never said they were anything but. I have also clearly pointed out that the 60's Cobras were AC/Shelby Cobras. Which means, once again, there is a difference.

And to address some questions that have arisen in the process: I didn't buy my car for its appreciation potential, I bought it to enjoy driving it. But Evan seems to think that I must be upset at its value. Permit me to state that (A) it is not a COB, as you have called it (RHD), but a COX, with LHD. It was one of 7 built, and three of those have been converted to RHD and/or 427 specifications, which means it is one of 4 remaining, and one of three with its original alloy skin. (B) The last RHD COB car that I am aware of being for sale (6124) sold earlier this year in the $865,000 range. What does that make a LHD example worth? I don't know, but am I upset with the numbers? Hardly.

Evan has also suggested that his car will no doubt soon be worth as much as a 60's COB car. I'm not certain I agree. Given that they only made 19 of the COB cars, yet they are still cranking out Cobra replicas, I would suggest the standard supply and demand equation will come into play and limit the appreciation curve of the CSX 4000s. Time will tell.

As for the questions raised by the new Lightweight Jaguar E-types being built, Automobile magazine has this to say: "Like most philosophical questions, the issue of whether this car is 'real' or a replica tends towards abstraction, can spark tireless debate, and may be insoluble. As time capsule perfect as they may be, the cars are being built in 2015, not 1963. England's Goodwood Revival vintage-racing festival apparently sides with the replica camp, barring what it sees as masquerading Lighweights at the manor door."

Hmmm... barring the lightweights from the manor door... Nah. This is an open forum.

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I am honestly beginning to wonder if anyone here actually bothers to read the various posts that they comment about. Where did I say the CSX 4000-series cars were not replicas of the 60's Cobras? Nowhere. That has been my point all along: they are later replicas of a 1965 Cobra. They are NOT 1965 Cobras, no matter what your MSO or title may say. Hence they are different.

Are they Shelby Cobras? Of course. Once again, I have never said they were anything but. I have also clearly pointed out that the 60's Cobras were AC/Shelby Cobras. Which means, once again, there is a difference.

And to address some questions that have arisen in the process: I didn't buy my car for its appreciation potential, I bought it to enjoy driving it. But Evan seems to think that I must be upset at its value. Permit me to state that (A) it is not a COB, as you have called it (RHD), but a COX, with LHD. It was one of 7 built, and three of those have been converted to RHD and/or 427 specifications, which means it is one of 4 remaining, and one of three with its original alloy skin. (B) The last RHD COB car that I am aware of being for sale (6124) sold earlier this year in the $865,000 range. What does that make a LHD example worth? I don't know, but am I upset with the numbers? Hardly.

Evan has also suggested that his car will no doubt soon be worth as much as a 60's COB car. I'm not certain I agree. Given that they only made 19 of the COB cars, yet they are still cranking out Cobra replicas, I would suggest the standard supply and demand equation will come into play and limit the appreciation curve of the CSX 4000s. Time will tell.

As for the questions raised by the new Lightweight Jaguar E-types being built, Automobile magazine has this to say: "Like most philosophical questions, the issue of whether this car is 'real' or a replica tends towards abstraction, can spark tireless debate, and may be insoluble. As time capsule perfect as they may be, the cars are being built in 2015, not 1963. England's Goodwood Revival vintage-racing festival apparently sides with the replica camp, barring what it sees as masquerading Lighweights at the manor door."

Hmmm... barring the lightweights from the manor door... Nah. This is an open forum.

No one is saying they are 1965 Cobra nor making the claim they are the same.

What you have stated, is what I believe Evan and 2Shelbys are claiming. They are Shelby Cobras period. Are they Shelby Cobras? Of course. Once again, I have never said they were anything but. I have also clearly pointed out that the 60's Cobras were AC/Shelby Cobras. Which means, once again, there is a difference. However this viewpoint seems to not be accpeted by others and is being pulled in every directions just not to agree. So the MSO does demonstrate is a Shelby Cobra.

[REAL 1]

Ned: No one is suggesting that the Goodwood Revival admit anything other than original vintage cars. I would not advocate to change that. Ridiculous. History has to be preserved. Those cars have a history that should not be interfered with or diluted. I get it and so do all Continuation owners.

Do I think my car will be worth as much as a COB. Nah, likely not. Don't be so sensitive Ned. Lord knows...look at me and what I deal with and I'm still a fun guy. Will my Shelby increase in value? Yes, its worth more than I have in it from 15 years ago. Good chance it will continue to appreciate or hold its value. If SAI takes a tank again then definitely yes. Likely double overnight. But...not the real reason I own it. I love it and love its connection to history, Cobra lore and its connection to CS and SAI and the original car it represents in a new generation of Shelbys.

Yeah, its different than original in a number of ways as far as time, who made it and other details I guess you could pick at.

But its the same in one major and crucial way. Its a Shelby Cobra.

It comes down to respect. Give it to get it.

[Jamo]

Ned...you don't realy truly expect folks to read before responding, do you?

I figure read 1 or 2 sentences and make up their minds that the poster either agrees or disagrees with what they themselves have said...they might scan the rest of a post, but actually read and achieve full comprehension...naw. That went out with handwritten letters delivered in regular mail where folks have a day or so to gather their wits before responding.

This internet stuff moves way to fast for any reasoned contemplation.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Jamo

RodKniock and DosShelbys...knock it off please.

More than happy to.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

But its the same in one major and crucial way. Its a Shelby Cobra.

It comes down to respect. Give it to get it.

Evan, as I have said repeatedly, I have nothing against the current crop of Shelby Cobras. I simply prefer the historic cars to the newer replicas. That is my right. Now, if you desire to start up the argument over how biased I am, go ahead. Forgive me if I don't respond.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

... Of course the Continuation Series are the true replicas of the original car
... Some of them continue his original car very closely and are "true replicas"

Originally Posted by ERANJ

... Of course the Continuation Series are the true replicas of the original car

No argument here, hold that thought boys, don't muddy it up by making it more complicated than it needs to be.

Note the conundrum you get into when using adjectives like "genuine", "real" or "authentic", without a qualifier like replica to go with it.

gen·u·ine
truly what something is said to be; authentic
synonyms: authentic, real, actual, original, bona fide, true, veritable

re·al
not imitation or artificial; genuine
synonyms: genuine, authentic, bona fide, historical, honest-to-goodness

au·then·tic
of undisputed origin; genuine.
synonyms: genuine, real, legitimate, the real McCoy, the real thing

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I simply prefer the historic cars to the newer replicas. That is my right.

That's how I feel.

Also, for ERANJ's benefit, since he joined us late, and who seems like a really nice person, I wanted to catch him/her up on the list of analogies we've attempted to use over the last 50+ pages in order to describe and compare the Shelby Cobra replica to 1 of the genuine 998:

a) The Present-day Auto Manufacturer (Challenger, Ferrari, etc.) Analogy
b) The Mona Lisa by da Vinci Analogy
c) The Rolex Watch Analogy
d) The Dolly The Sheep Cloning Analogy
e) The Seafaring Vessel (row boats and dingees) Analogy
f) The Tribute Band Analogy (Van Halen, Journey)
g) The Indian Motorcycle Analogy
h) The 6 LW Jaguars built by Jaguar Analogy

I may have missed a few, but that's a solid list.

And I'm still voting for "d."

Producing anything 30-50 years later is a replicating or cloning process. And if something is replicated or cloned, then it simply can't be genuine or authentic. Which brings me back to Evan's license plate, which is "Real427." While he does have an original 427 side oiler, the car itself is a replica. Call it a true replica, whatever that means. To me, it's still a replica.

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

No argument here, hold that thought boys, don't muddy it up by making it more complicated than it needs to be.

Note the conundrum you get into when using adjectives like "genuine", "real" or "authentic", without a qualifier like replica to go with it.

gen·u·ine
truly what something is said to be; authentic
synonyms: authentic, real, actual, original, bona fide, true, veritable

re·al
not imitation or artificial; genuine
synonyms: genuine, authentic, bona fide, historical, honest-to-goodness

au·then·tic
of undisputed origin; genuine.
synonyms: genuine, real, legitimate, the real McCoy, the real thing

Looks as though the points has been made and agreed by many as to whether the term Real applies. So what's your objective or diversionary tactic?

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

No argument here, hold that thought boys, don't muddy it up by making it more complicated than it needs to be.

Note the conundrum you get into when using adjectives like "genuine", "real" or "authentic", without a qualifier like replica to go with it.

gen·u·ine
truly what something is said to be; authentic
synonyms: authentic, real, actual, original, bona fide, true, veritable

re·al
not imitation or artificial; genuine
synonyms: genuine, authentic, bona fide, historical, honest-to-goodness

au·then·tic
of undisputed origin; genuine.
synonyms: genuine, real, legitimate, the real McCoy, the real thing

Interesting quoting from quoting of another poster. Hmmm?

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

That's how I feel.

Also, for ERANJ's benefit, since he joined us late, and who seems like a really nice person, I wanted to catch him/her up on the list of analogies we've attempted to use over the last 50+ pages in order to describe and compare the Shelby Cobra replica to 1 of the genuine 998:

a) The Present-day Auto Manufacturer (Challenger, Ferrari, etc.) Analogy
b) The Mona Lisa by da Vinci Analogy
c) The Rolex Watch Analogy
d) The Dolly The Sheep Cloning Analogy
e) The Seafaring Vessel (row boats and dingees) Analogy
f) The Tribute Band Analogy (Van Halen, Journey)
g) The Indian Motorcycle Analogy
h) The 6 LW Jaguars built by Jaguar Analogy

I may have missed a few, but that's a solid list.

And I'm still voting for "d."

Producing anything 30-50 years later is a replicating or cloning process. And if something is replicated or cloned, then it simply can't be genuine or authentic. Which brings me back to Evan's license plate, which is "Real427." While he does have an original 427 side oiler, the car itself is a replica. Call it a true replica, whatever that means. To me, it's still a replica.

RK thank you for the comment firstly.

You actually missed one though What about the restoration parts that are manufactured by new suppliers other than GM labeled on the box as Genuine GM parts. The point being it's all about licensing which Shelby holds? I sincerely believe that if we are simply stating that CSX4000s are a Shelby Cobra (forget about all the terms in between) than Evan car is a real Shelby Cobra and the license term is accurate. Whatelse is a CSX4000 car a real....replica?

[Al G]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

No argument here, hold that thought boys, don't muddy it up by making it more complicated than it needs to be.

Note the conundrum you get into when using adjectives like "genuine", "real" or "authentic", without a qualifier like replica to go with it.

gen·u·ine
truly what something is said to be; authentic
synonyms: authentic, real, actual, original, bona fide, true, veritable

re·al
not imitation or artificial; genuine
synonyms: genuine, authentic, bona fide, historical, honest-to-goodness

au·then·tic
of undisputed origin; genuine.
synonyms: genuine, real, legitimate, the real McCoy, the real thing

I prefer to stick with the definition, not the synonyms. They are there for those who can't comprehend the definition.

My car is built by a company called Shelby. The MSO says the model is Cobra. It is what the MSO claims it to be. That seems to match the definitions of genuine, real and authentic. Of course it is not an original 1965 Cobra and I never claim it to be. The so-called Cobra replicas manufactered by a number of companies all fail the genuine, real and authentic definitions if they claim to be Shelby Cobras.

[CompClassics]

I don't want to side track this article but I thought I should correct a statement about Goodwood not allowing anything but original period vehicles. There are so many Kirkham based 289 Cobras at Goodwood that some thought the name of the race should be the "Kirkham Cup".