Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[LMH]

[Paul F]

Watches? go get your own sticky thread. But I have to admit, it's a nice change.

Now, back to important things. SAAC registry is in kit car replica. The 60's Cobra Walsh ruling with dicta. Ego has a red herring continuation kit Cobra replica heing. Better opinion continuation 427 for me. Don't care kit continuation Cobra in awe. The question answer Cobra 60s kit replica judge kit. Kit car continuation replica car kit replica continuation registry SAAC 60s Cobra kit kit replica continuation registry. Kit kit, replica replica herriing kit continuation SACC Cobra 60s kit continuation better herring kit SAAC.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

BS. You're trying to make a case, again, that AC made the Cobra and that Shelby had nothing to do with it and that AC would have become a world class auto supplier and race car manufacturer and that we'd be celebrating the AC Ace today without Carroll Shelby. Shelby made the Cobra what it was. AC was a component supplier to Shelby American. Carroll Shelby put the Cobra moniker on the Ace. Shelby made it into a legend.

Could AC have done it? Absolutely, there is no shortage of talent when combined with enough money can't accomplish anything. [The impossible just takes a little longer and costs more money].

But They Didn't!!! Shelby Did!

Without Shelby the AC Ace would have become another Euro sports car with a nominal following (remember the Berkeley?) but noone would have ever considered "replicating" it were it not for Shelby.

Education over.

Ah, so the real problem is you're still chapped about that earlier thread, thanks for sharing Everyone knows the AC ACE was tweaked to get that first 289 out. That was John Tojeiro and his design. If you want to know who made revisions to that design over time they were several, that does not change the fact that John Tojeiro gets the credit for the design.

There is a reason why that 7 page article is called "AC Shelby Cobra, 1953-1963: starting with an Ace".

There is also a reason why they elaborated on Tojeiro's exit from AC and the timing/conditions of it -

"After being paid a fee for the first 100 Aces sold John Tojeiro and AC more or less went their separate ways ... it wasn't until the 1980s and the Cobra replica and kit-car boom that he really came to regret his naive deal with AC, which dissociated the creator from his creation that became an automotive icon and obscured his rightful place in car history."

That reads pretty damn true to me. Then there is mrmustang's post #81 from above that is quite timely -

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Let's face facts, unless your car has a providence such as the following, it's a replica



Might I add, that you'll notice how it is invoiced as an "AC ACE" chassis with the CSX2032 chassis ID.

twobjshelbys - I know you own a csx4000 and want your continuation replica to have as much "American prominence" as possible, but the design from which all cobras sprung belongs to AC Cars Ltd. and John Tojeiro.

If you (or anyone) still disagrees, that's fine but please post a source of information so that it can be reviewed. I was asked to do so and did. I have no problem admitting John Tojeiro might not be the right guy if that's the case, but you'll need to prove it to me with something a little more concrete than an off the cuff "it ain't so".

[Paul F]

Sorry, I was having a stroke. What I meant to say is kit hering, continuation Cobra, 60s replica dicta awe. SACC hering replica continuation kit Walsh registry. Ruling SAAC dicta kit herring Cobra 60s replica car Cobra. Registry kit replica continuation kit car Cobra.

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by Paul F

Watches? go get your own sticky thread. But I have to admit, it's a nice change.

Now, back to important things. SAAC registry is in kit car replica. The 60's Cobra Walsh ruling with dicta. Ego has a red herring continuation kit Cobra replica heing. Better opinion continuation 427 for me. Don't care kit continuation Cobra in awe. The question answer Cobra 60s kit replica judge kit. Kit car continuation replica car kit replica continuation registry SAAC 60s Cobra kit kit replica continuation registry. Kit kit, replica replica herriing kit continuation SACC Cobra 60s kit continuation better herring kit SAAC.

Finally, he answers all our concerns in a manner even UNREALKITCAR1 can understand.

Kudos for your clarity.

[itstock]

Originally Posted by Paul F

Sorry, I was having a stroke. What I meant to say is kit hering, continuation Cobra, 60s replica dicta awe. SACC hering replica continuation kit Walsh registry. Ruling SAAC dicta kit herring Cobra 60s replica car Cobra. Registry kit replica continuation kit car Cobra.

I will not agree to disagree.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Ah, so the real problem is you're still chapped about that earlier thread, thanks for sharing Everyone knows the AC ACE was tweaked to get that first 289 out. That was John Tojeiro and his design. If you want to know who made revisions to that design over time they were several, that does not change the fact that John Tojeiro gets the credit for the design.

There is a reason why that 7 page article is called "AC Shelby Cobra, 1953-1963: starting with an Ace".

There is also a reason why they elaborated on Tojeiro's exit from AC and the timing/conditions of it -

"After being paid a fee for the first 100 Aces sold John Tojeiro and AC more or less went their separate ways ... it wasn't until the 1980s and the Cobra replica and kit-car boom that he really came to regret his naive deal with AC, which dissociated the creator from his creation that became an automotive icon and obscured his rightful place in car history."

That reads pretty damn true to me. Then there is mrmustang's post #81 from above that is quite timely -



twobjshelbys - I know you own a csx4000 and want your continuation replica to have as much "American prominence" as possible, but the design from which all cobras sprung belongs to AC Cars Ltd. and John Tojeiro.

If you (or anyone) still disagrees, that's fine but please post a source of information so that it can be reviewed. I was asked to do so and did. I have no problem admitting John Tojeiro might not be the right guy if that's the case, but you'll need to prove it to me with something a little more concrete than an off the cuff "it ain't so".

The AC Ace chassis without Carroll Shelby and Phil Remington etc.. would remain nothing but a spindly little British chassis of little to mediocre historical note. Period. All major improvements that made the car a "Cobra" were Shelby American initiated /requested and then carried out by AC or done by SAI.

Further, Tojeiro was never part of AC to "exit AC". Cite you source on that one please.

Tojeiro is responsible for the Ace chassis design. True. He is responsible for the Barchetta shaped body work that covered his initial chassis work adopted by AC early on from which the Cobra eventually evolved. True. However, by the time the Cobra was coming on the scene Tojeiro was long gone and the body shape had already evolved to the more recognizable Cobra shape without Tojeiro input.

Oh, and my source of information is Trevor Legate "Cobra, The Real Thing" and Brian Laban, "AC Cobra, The Complete Story".

However, lets stay focused on your incorrect statement that started this.

Tojeiro, contrary to your statement previously regarding the 427 had nothing directly to do with the 427 body shape or chassis design beside the then indirect connection to the 289. Nothing.

Sounds like your statement was an "off the cuff" statement without basis. Please explain to us where you are correct if you maintain you are.



P.S. Tony doesn't own a Continuation Cobra any longer. Another "off the cuff" remark. Two for two.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

twobjshelbys - I know you own a csx4000 and want your continuation replica to have as much "American prominence" as possible, but the design from which all cobras sprung belongs to AC Cars Ltd. and John Tojeiro.

(1) Not any more. SOld it three years ago to buy a Ford GT. Wife hated it.

(2) Yes, the design "sprung forth from the loins of AC Motors", but Carroll Shelby adopted the orphan baby and let it grow up. Without Carroll, the AC Ace would have been another page in failed British Sports Car history.

[twobjshelbys]

In the end this is a discussion of "market perception". Face it, you really don't care about who your car's daddy is, you care about what its worth.

Well, I checked out the market today. Barrett Jackson has 9Cobras on the docket. That's actually the most I've seen I think ever at a single auction let alone a BJ auction, and enough to derive a trend. [Statistical validity of the trend is not validated, go for it.]

Lot 185 (Thursday, mid afternoon*) Arntz. Car was not present yet

Lot 343 (Friday, late morning) CCX. Car was not present yet.

Lot 374 (Friday, early-mid afternoon) Unique. Good looking car.

Lot 395 (Friday, late afternoon) Factory Five. Good looking car. One of the best FFs I've seen.

Lot 424.1 (Friday, late afternoon) SPF(?) car wasn't yet present and docket description doesn't list original mfgr but lists as "rolling chassis" and mentions SPF side pipes.

Lot 640.1 (Saturday, late morning) Factory 5. Car was there. But wheels and engine are clearly "custom".

Lot 720 (Saturday, late afternoon, early evening) Shelby CSX4000. Nice looking example located in showcase area.

Lot 734 (Saturday, late afternoon-early evening) Shelby CSX6124 (new from Planet Cobra, Stephen Becker). It is a new car.

Lot 752.1 (Saturday early evening) Shelby CSX4380. Nice looking car.

(*time estimates based on block time of about 3 minutes per vehicle).

All of the auctions follow a pattern, Barrett Jackson is no different. If you have a car on the block on the morning of the first day, it will have a condition of x and sell for y. If the model car goes the next day at the same time, expect that to be of condition better than x and sell for >y. The same applies within a day - an evening car will pull a better price than an early day car (because they want to stack them that way).

So note when and what is selling and draw your own conclusions.

By the way, don't feel too jilted. Check the docket for all of those absolutely beautiful new vintage (20xx) Bentleys and compare their original MSRP to when/where the car is scheduled and estimate the value. Last year they were going for <1/3.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

(1) Not any more. SOld it three years ago to buy a Ford GT. Wife hated it.

(2) Yes, the design "sprung forth from the loins of AC Motors", but Carroll Shelby adopted the orphan baby and let it grow up. Without Carroll, the AC Ace would have been another page in failed British Sports Car history.

Number (2) is certainly shared by some but not all, I say we will never know. Tojeiro did a special racing version of the Ace for AC in '58 and finished 2nd in its' class at Le Mans. You say "failed British Sports Car history", maybe not so much, there are other examples including beating Shelby at Le Mans in '63 I think. No matter, you have your opinion, I have mine.

FWIW, my original statement -
The truth is, AC Cars Ltd. were the creators of the 289 and 427 bodies, not Shelby".

This started out as a trade dress discussion, the appearance/shape of the cobra. I guess design got thrown in with the links which is ok but not how this mini-battle started.

LMH thinks Alan Turner deserves credit for the cobra, how do you feel about that?

In late 1962 Alan Turner, AC's chief engineer completed a major design change of the car's front end to accommodate rack and pinion steering while still using transverse leaf spring suspension. The new car entered production in early 1963 and was designated Mark II.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra

I see Alan Turner as the front end guy yes, but giving all the cobra credit to him, I wouldn't. More to the original point, I don't see Alan being a big contributor to the cobra shape/appearance except for maybe fender flares (if he actually had a hand in that). But, you can give Alan Turner all the credit you want, it's still AC Cars Ltd.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

P.S. Tony doesn't own a Continuation Cobra any longer. Another "off the cuff" remark.

My wife hated it, wouldn't ride in it. Bought the GT but she doesn't want to go anywhere in it either (she did a few times, but I won't take it out where I can't stay with it so that means drives and/or car shows). I don't like to drive it in city traffic due to the huge blind spot, so I'm selling it.

But a Cobra could find its way back as a replacement. Since the car would be for me (I know she won't ride in it anyway) it's a contender and the Cobra is so much fun to drive. The next one will be a 289 car though. Manufacturer TBD.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Number (2) is certainly shared by some but not all, I say we will never know. Tojeiro did a special racing version of the Ace for AC in '58 and finished 2nd in its' class at Le Mans. You say "failed British Sports Car history", maybe not so much, there are other examples including beating Shelby at Le Mans in '63 I think. No matter, you have your opinion, I have mine.

Let me say it so you can understand. This time I'll try not to use sentences with too many words.

AC Motors may have done a racing Ace. I don't care who worked there. They didn't do anything with it.

Like I said, they could have mustered a team and talent, but didn't. So it falls off the map of relevancy.

Yours is all a "could have". Shelby is a "did". The former is speculation, the latter is history.

Going to the BJ Gala. ttfn

[Joe's Garage]

Oh I get it, you can't handle the truth

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

...
P.S. Tony doesn't own a Continuation Cobra any longer. Another "off the cuff" remark. Two for two.

Tony has an outdated description on his posting info, would that be "misleading" ya think?
Cobra Make, Engine: Shelby CSX4005LA, Roush 427IR

As for the rest, I knew if I cleared the dance floor you would show up so I could record the event.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MQsanriHsc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MQsanriHsc[/ame]

Just for you jhv48

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by LMH

Not true. John Tojeiro left AC after designing the Ace. Alan Turner did some redesigning of the Ace and the Ace 2.6. The Cobra was basically a 2.6 Ace with fender flares for the then new Dunlop 5.5" wheels. Shelby did not design the Cobra but did develop the racing versions. Alan Turner is pretty much responsible for the design of the Cobra.
Larry

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Larry. Good post. Bingo.

PSST, Alan Turner was AC's Chief Engineer on the project.

PRICELESS!

[LMH]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Number (2) is certainly shared by some but not all, I say we will never know. Tojeiro did a special racing version of the Ace for AC in '58 and finished 2nd in its' class at Le Mans. You say "failed British Sports Car history", maybe not so much, there are other examples including beating Shelby at Le Mans in '63 I think. No matter, you have your opinion, I have mine.

FWIW, my original statement -
The truth is, AC Cars Ltd. were the creators of the 289 and 427 bodies, not Shelby".

This started out as a trade dress discussion, the appearance/shape of the cobra. I guess design got thrown in with the links which is ok but not how this mini-battle started.

LMH thinks Alan Turner deserves credit for the cobra, how do you feel about that?

In late 1962 Alan Turner, AC's chief engineer completed a major design change of the car's front end to accommodate rack and pinion steering while still using transverse leaf spring suspension. The new car entered production in early 1963 and was designated Mark II.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra

I see Alan Turner as the front end guy yes, but giving all the cobra credit to him, I wouldn't. More to the original point, I don't see Alan being a big contributor to the cobra shape/appearance except for maybe fender flares (if he actually had a hand in that). But, you can give Alan Turner all the credit you want, it's still AC Cars Ltd.

I need to clarify a little using correct terminology. First, the "Cobra" is a leaf spring model as originally designated by internal documents from AC Cars. The coil spring model developed later is a "Cobra 427" or "427 Cobra". Two different cars. When I say "Cobra", I'm referring to the leaf spring cars.
Alan Turner redesigned the Ace, changing it a couple times during it's run with the most changes seen for the Ace 2.6. The body was kept pretty much the same for the Cobra except for flares added to the body to accommodate the wider wheels and a few other little changes here and there. Initially, the Cobra was little more than an altered Ace chassis but quickly, it was further altered for the added horsepower of the V8. As changes were made in one car, subsequent cars were changed during production. Those changes were made based on feedback from SAI (insert "Phil Remington" here) and engineered at AC Cars into production. The development of the Cobra was truly a joint effort. Changes were made throughout production with the last run of cars being the most similar to the previous car built.
When it comes to the Cobra 427, I freely admit that I don't know as much about it as I do the leaf spring car. They just don't interest me as much. It was Ken Miles who had the idea of using the Ford big block and Ford engineers did the design work for the chassis but had to stay within spec's set forth by AC Cars engineers for their jigs. As for who exactly designed the body of the Cobra 427, I don't know for sure. It may have been a situation where in basic terms, the leaf spring body was modified to fit the wider chassis but I'm speculating. The rear fenders are basically from the FIA Cobra with changes made to fit the wheels/tires. The doors, hood and trunk are still the same. The grill was opened up for more air flow for the bigger radiator, needed for the larger engine. I have never been able to find out if Turner had a hand in the Cobra 427's look or not. I'm always learning and always studying.
To say that AC wouldn't have built the Cobra because they would have done it before Shelby entered the picture is not an accurate statement. The lightweight Ford V8 was in development during the Ace's production and not available to customers. Can't build what you don't have. For sure though, the car we know as the Cobra and Cobra 427 would not have been as we know it were it not for both SAI and AC Cars involvement.
Larry

[Joe's Garage]

Thanks Larry, good post.

[Thor maine]

Originally Posted by LMH

I need to clarify a little using correct terminology. First, the "Cobra" is a leaf spring model as originally designated by internal documents from AC Cars. The coil spring model developed later is a "Cobra 427" or "427 Cobra". Two different cars. When I say "Cobra", I'm referring to the leaf spring cars.
Alan Turner redesigned the Ace, changing it a couple times during it's run with the most changes seen for the Ace 2.6. The body was kept pretty much the same for the Cobra except for flares added to the body to accommodate the wider wheels and a few other little changes here and there. Initially, the Cobra was little more than an altered Ace chassis but quickly, it was further altered for the added horsepower of the V8. As changes were made in one car, subsequent cars were changed during production. Those changes were made based on feedback from SAI (insert "Phil Remington" here) and engineered at AC Cars into production. The development of the Cobra was truly a joint effort. Changes were made throughout production with the last run of cars being the most similar to the previous car built.
When it comes to the Cobra 427, I freely admit that I don't know as much about it as I do the leaf spring car. They just don't interest me as much. It was Ken Miles who had the idea of using the Ford big block and Ford engineers did the design work for the chassis but had to stay within spec's set forth by AC Cars engineers for their jigs. As for who exactly designed the body of the Cobra 427, I don't know for sure. It may have been a situation where in basic terms, the leaf spring body was modified to fit the wider chassis but I'm speculating. The rear fenders are basically from the FIA Cobra with changes made to fit the wheels/tires. The doors, hood and trunk are still the same. The grill was opened up for more air flow for the bigger radiator, needed for the larger engine. I have never been able to find out if Turner had a hand in the Cobra 427's look or not. I'm always learning and always studying.
To say that AC wouldn't have built the Cobra because they would have done it before Shelby entered the picture is not an accurate statement. The lightweight Ford V8 was in development during the Ace's production and not available to customers. Can't build what you don't have. For sure though, the car we know as the Cobra and Cobra 427 would not have been as we know it were it not for both SAI and AC Cars involvement.
Larry

And FORDS, AC-Shelby-Ford and that is the problem. The Shelby American Car of today is only a replica of the lighting that struck in the 1960s. 1/3 of a authentic, Real1, kit, and to believe it is any more than that is just stupid . All of that said , they are super cool cars, as all replicas that are built to the highest standard. A 1/3 of a authentic , genuine, replica, kit car, like I said before you can take that to the bank.

[LMH]

The whole discussion of "kit, replica, component, continuation" or whatever other descriptive term one can come up with, to me is silly. There are only originals that ended in 68 and everything else isn't. I don't really want to get involved in that argument and everyone can call their car whatever as far as I'm concerned. So long as it isn't passed off as or mislead as an original, whatever. I think the history being accurate IS important though.
If I could afford it, I would have an original but currently my bank account won't allow it. I love seeing a car that closely replicates an original though. The work and commitment it takes to get it there is surprisingly difficult if done right. I can appreciate it though but civilians often can't as they don't know much about the cars, original or not.
Anyway, back to the show!
Larry

[Jamo]

The Panerai PAM 1...

For Paneristi (lovers of things Panerai), this is it.



For folks that know me, this particular watch has been something that has been with me since before I first came on here. Numerous Gasholes were at first sick to death about hearing about the inherent goodness of this piece (Turk threatened to kill me several times on our road trips...my only way of annoying him as much as he annoyed me playing Connie Francis tapes), and yet now several of them sport Panerais (originals and excellent reproductions) on their wrists, including a few of our brethren in England.

In 1996, I noticed the ads in the Robb Report and was drawn to its heft (44mm when nobody was making anything that big) and absolute clean design. Panerai were purpose built for the Italian military demolition divers before WWII...the predecessors to our SEALS. Don't laugh about the words "Italian" and "military" in the same sentence...more than a few British ships were taken out at anchor from Gibraltar to Alexandria during WWII due to their escapades. They were designed and built in Florence originally, and one of the great strap makers (Paci) still has its factory next to the original Panerai factory in Florence, akin to knowing that the Montana eatery is still visited by Ferrari drivers now as it used to be when Enzo would buy them all lunch during the 60s and 70s (Andretti's top wine label is Montana in tribute).

Stallone came across Panerai about the same time I was wearing mine and took the brand to skyrocketing heights, giving one to each of his Planet Hollywood partners. True story...Awnold heard that Stallone was going to be prominently wearing his in his new (at the time) movie, Daylight. Awnold's own movie, Eraser, was finishing production ahead of it, so he went back and added a snipit to the opening scenes which included a close up of him setting his Panerai just to be first and screw with his buddy. Panerai and the movies and the folks that wear them have become inseparable and continue to this day. Stallone gave them out to his friends in Expendibles, and he and Stathom always show them off when they give the wrist bumps in the cockpit at the beginning and end of each of the Expendibles films.

That being said, I got mine before the hoopla started because it was big enough to look right on my wrist...just like a big block just looks right in a 427 S/C (just having some fun). As with most of my collection, it is first and foremost a tool watch...built to take hard knocks and get dirty (whether it's working on the car or fixing a damn broken sprinkler pipe in the mud). Not a bad investment either...in less than 20 years, my $2,000 watch (in 96) surprised me when Shrive & Co. offered to buy it off my wrist for $16,000 last year or trade it straight across for a new "Bronzo" (Expendibles 2 watch...made out of naval brass) scratches and all. I don't think any modern CSX has gone up in value that much, even Evan's. Hehehe...

Still wearing it most days (on my wrist now) and banging it around...switching numerous leather (some made from WWI leather ammo pouches) straps 2-3 times a week. Getting a Panerai and buying straps is like getting an ink jet printer and then buying the damn ink...it never stops.

The more I hear about who designed the Cobra and which replicas are the bestest, the more I am drawn to talking about watches here...so see how much pain you can take. If I run out of watches, there's always the pen collection to turn to...including long painful discussions about nibs.