Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[Joe's Garage]

What they say I said ...

Originally Posted by REAL 1

... Joe'sGarage now's sees himself and his band of bullies as a "guardian of the forum"? Who appointed you a guardian of anything? ...

Originally Posted by Al G

... Now you think you're a guardian of the forum?...

What I actually said ...

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

... All of us are the guardians of this FORUM ...

Moving on ...

Originally Posted by Paul F

One often needs to think before posting. So before you post on this thread, listen to this entire video. Once you are done listening to it, consider your thoughts about what you want to say. Write them down on a piece of paper. Wad it up. Throw it in the garbage can ...

In about 10 hours we'll see if you hit the garbage can or the "submit reply" button

Originally Posted by Xack

... I think most here can agree to say you have an original that was built some time after that model year was produced ...

Nope, original only means one thing ...

o·rig·i·nal
adjective
1. present or existing from the beginning; first or earliest.
2. created directly and personally by a particular artist; not a copy or imitation.

noun
1. something serving as a model or basis for imitations or copies.

[Jamo]

Xack...I thought I was exceedingly clear about not attacking anyone.

Joe...move forward...pretty please.

[thorconstr]

I built a Kirkham Cobra in 2004. The same conversation, same people, was going on then. Kirkham bodies and frames, Shelby badging and "Continuation" paperwork. As far as I'm concerned an "original" was built between 1962 and 1967, the "continuation" is a Kirkham bodied copy of the original. If someone wants to think their "continuation" is any more a Cobra than any of the ERA's Kirkham's, Classic, etc, have at it. I loved the Kirkham and it would blow the doors off an original. Wish I still had it. All that matters is that you are happy with your Cobra, that's it!

[Jaydee]

Another funny expression is blueprint. A blueprint is not the original drawing.
JD

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by thorconstr

I built a Kirkham Cobra in 2004. The same conversation, same people, was going on then. Kirkham bodies and frames, Shelby badging and "Continuation" paperwork. As far as I'm concerned an "original" was built between 1962 and 1967, the "continuation" is a Kirkham bodied copy of the original. If someone wants to think their "continuation" is any more a Cobra than any of the ERA's Kirkham's, Classic, etc, have at it. I loved the Kirkham and it would blow the doors off an original. Wish I still had it. All that matters is that you are happy with your Cobra, that's it!

A short spin on the merry go round from hell before bed.

-SAI constituted in 1961/62.
-Original Shelby Cobras are rebadged AC's. AC used subcontractors in many cases to fabricate body panels.
-SAI has been in existence since that time but dormant for many years.
-SAI became active again with Carroll Shelby at the helm in 1990's.
-Continuation Shelby Cobras are rebadged Kirkham's in many cases. Not all. Some others were sourced for aluminum bodies such as Kimmons.
-SAI fits out their Cobras with their own suspension bits, brakes, wire and plumb the cars.
-SAI has rights to use the Cobra name. Legally. No other can use that mark or -Shelby related marks including CSX vins. These restrictions applied to AC back in the 1960s also.
-Federal regulations and safety regulations appear on the scene beginning in late 1960s and continue to pile up continuing to current day.
-Original Cobras would never be able to be sold in the same manner as between 1962 and 1968 even if production continued uninterrupted and the design and specifications remained unchanged. They would have to follow the same process as the current production Cobras in order to be sold to the public today.
-SAI began production of current generation Shelby Cobras to exact or near exact spec of their original series in 1990s. Current production Shelby Cobras become available again in aluminum and glass.
-Original series are collectibles and very expensive. Current series more accessible and affordable but still at a large premium over "replicas" which term has become understood and used in common parlance to refer to cars merely looking like a Shelby Cobra but not really a Shelby Cobra. General public not really aware of current production or continuation series. General public knows of only the original series which they naturally see as the REAL Cobras.
-New series of Shelby Cobra creates some confusion as to how to refer to and consider these new Shelby by both owners and SAAC. No one expected or foresaw a new second series of Shelby Cobras.
-SAAC issues statement sometime near and prior to 2004 stating their position. LONG before litigation SAAC has with Shelby in 2008. Statement makes clear that second series are genuine Cobras but not part of original series. Only difference between original Shelby and current production is years of manufacture. They are not considered "replicas" by SAAC as that term has now been misused and now commonly understood.
-SAAC 4th Edition of World Registry carries that statement position forward in 2008/9 and further explains common misuse of term "replica" as defined by Websters. SAAC acknowledges the widespread misuse and incorrect meaning now commonly used but says can't put the "toothpaste back in the tube". Point being non Shelbys are not "replicas" but merely cars that look like Cobras but really not. A "bootleg" to use a euphemism. SAAC notes that technically only the continuation Cobras are "replicas" i.e. true replicas as defined by Websters, i.e. an item or work reissued by the original artist or maker.
-SAAC, due to the fact the "toothpaste" can't be put back in the tube now adopts and uses the now commonly misused meaning of "replica" for the category of non Shelby cars except those that qualify as genuine "Cobras" according to SAAC. They now use "replica" as a term to refer to cars that are not Cobras but have the general appearance of one that have various underpinnings.
-SAAC sets forth those cars that it accepts as genuine "Cobras". There are different brands and categories from AC's (which have sub-categories), to Shelby's (which have subcategories) to Kirkham. Original Shelby's are clearly at the top of the pecking order. However, even within originals there are pecking orders e.g. completely original cars, partially reconstructed etc...
-SAAC in its comprehensive Registry provides very logical, well reasoned, reasonable and fair statements as to the current production Shelby's.
-SAAC's now current website statement still acknowledges SAI produces "current generation Cobras".
-SAAC's forum discussions segregate CSX Cobras by series e.g.2000, 3000, 4000 and 7000 and 1000 and provide a separate forum for "replicas and tributes.
-The "common guy's" "understanding" of what he considers to be a "real" Shelby Cobra is has no bearing in fact or reality on what is or isn't a real Cobra except of course as to that particular individual and what HE chooses to accept in his own mind as one.


Facts.

Hey, you guys have fun with this one.

[Jamo]

Good...fair and complete non-aggressive statement of your opinions and interpretations.

Any responses should be in the same vein.

[Tommy]

"-The "common guy's" "understanding" of what he considers to be a "real" Shelby Cobra is has no bearing in fact or reality on what is or isn't a real Cobra except of course as to that particular individual and what HE chooses to accept in his own mind as one. " - Real1

Like President Clinton's, "It depends on what the definition of 'is' is," this logic may pass the legal test, but it doesn't pass the common sense test. When a clueless stranger asks me if my car is real, I strongly believe he is asking if it is a multi-million dollar car from the 60s, not is it a rebadged, slightly modified Kirkham? Unless either of us takes the time to ask what he really means, we are each free to interpret the question however we like.

"-SAAC 4th Edition of World Registry carries that statement position forward in 2008/9 and further explains common misuse of term "replica" as defined by Websters. SAAC acknowledges the widespread misuse and incorrect meaning now commonly used but says can't put the "toothpaste back in the tube". Point being non Shelbys are not "replicas" but merely cars that look like Cobras but really not. A "bootleg" to use a euphemism. SAAC notes that technically only the continuation Cobras are "replicas" i.e. true replicas as defined by Websters, i.e. an item or work reissued by the original artist or maker. " - Real1

I'll agree to start calling my car a "bootleg knockoff" if you'll agree to start calling your car a "replica." Deal?

[jhv48]

I'm in!

Evan?

[Joe's Garage]

-SAI began production of current generation Shelby Cobras to exact or near exact spec of their original series in 1990s.
-SAAC issues statement sometime near and prior to 2004 stating their position. LONG before litigation SAAC has with Shelby in 2008. Statement makes clear that second series are genuine Cobras but not part of original series. Only difference between original Shelby and current production is years of manufacture. -REAL 1

1988-2010 Shelby Cobra 427 S/C Continuation Series
Improvements include a stronger steel frame and better alloys used in the components, plus better cooling and additional heat shielding to make these cars safer and more drivable without losing any of their original character.
Shelby Cobra 427 S/C Continuation Series

Point 1: Notwithstanding the two conflicting statements "exact or near exact spec of their original series" and "Only difference between original Shelby and current production is years of manufacture", it is clear that the current production Cobras, like all the replicas, are an improved copy of the originals. Note that the Continuations are offered in fiberglass and carbon fiber bodies, a further departure from "exact or near exact spec of their original series".

Point 2: Shelby decided to market the CSX4000/6000 series as continuations to separate his cars from the "replica" field. That does not make them non-replicas. On this forum where we have many cobra enthusiasts who are knowledgeable on the subject, a large number view the Continuations as replicas, including Ned Scudder (Registry curator) who is a true expert on the Shelby Cobra. To think that only the uneducated pedestrian sees continuations as replicas is untrue, this threads longevity has proved that.

Point 3: Using the Dinghy versus Rowboat analogy. Sure, Shelby can call his current production cobra a Dinghy, and all the others are Rowboats. But when you bring a "Trade Dress" lawsuit claiming unique distinction of your car against the others, and lose, then the court has ruled that your car is a Rowboat. As part of that ruling handed down by Judge Walsh, Shelby identified the 427 S/C replicas as being identified with a CSX4000 designation.

Point 4: The man behind the marketing of the Continuation Cobra, Carroll Shelby. Has he given us any reason to believe what he is producing is uniquely "different" than what was already being produced at the time. I would say no, in fact quite the contrary. When one looks at the Carroll Shelby legacy, there is evidence that his character is quite suspect when marketing or trying to sell cars.

Counterfeit Cobras
In 1993 the Los Angeles Times exposed a Carroll Shelby scheme to "Counterfeit" his own cars. With the price of an original 427 c.i. Cobra skyrocketing, Shelby had, by his own written declaration executed under penalty of perjury, caused the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the government agency responsible for titling vehicles and issuing operator permits) to utter forty-three "Duplicate Titles" for vehicles that did not officially exist in company records. A letter from AC Cars confirmed the fact that the chassis numbers Shelby had obtained titles for were never manufactured, at least by AC Cars. Only fifty-five 427 c.i. Cobras had been originally produced out of a block of serial numbers reserved for 100 vehicles. Shelby had taken advantage of a loophole in the California system that allowed one to obtain a duplicate title for a vehicle only on a written declaration, without the vehicle identification number appearing in the DMV's database or the declarant ever presenting an actual vehicle for inspection.[13] Shelby later admitted[13] that the chassis had been manufactured in 1991 and '92 by McCluskey Ltd, an engineering firm in Torrance, California, and were not authentic AC chassis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra

Final Point: Call your Continuation a non-replica genuine Shelby Cobra if you like, that puts you in a pretty small club - even some of your fellow CSX owners do not agree with that classification. The bigger picture is that you are at odds with the majority of cobra enthusiasts. So when you do get into your genuine Shelby Cobra for a nice drive, know that you can do so because your state has allowed you to register your genuine Shelby Cobra under DMV special provisions set aside for component vehicles/kit cars/replicas.

[jhv48]

And we're off and running.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Tommy

"-The "common guy's" "understanding" of what he considers to be a "real" Shelby Cobra is has no bearing in fact or reality on what is or isn't a real Cobra except of course as to that particular individual and what HE chooses to accept in his own mind as one. " - Real1

Like President Clinton's, "It depends on what the definition of 'is' is," this logic may pass the legal test, but it doesn't pass the common sense test. When a clueless stranger asks me if my car is real, I strongly believe he is asking if it is a multi-million dollar car from the 60s, not is it a rebadged, slightly modified Kirkham? Unless either of us takes the time to ask what he really means, we are each free to interpret the question however we like.

"-SAAC 4th Edition of World Registry carries that statement position forward in 2008/9 and further explains common misuse of term "replica" as defined by Websters. SAAC acknowledges the widespread misuse and incorrect meaning now commonly used but says can't put the "toothpaste back in the tube". Point being non Shelbys are not "replicas" but merely cars that look like Cobras but really not. A "bootleg" to use a euphemism. SAAC notes that technically only the continuation Cobras are "replicas" i.e. true replicas as defined by Websters, i.e. an item or work reissued by the original artist or maker. " - Real1

I'll agree to start calling my car a "bootleg knockoff" if you'll agree to start calling your car a "replica." Deal?

What the "common guy" with little or no real understanding thinks or doesn't think about the current production Cobras is irrelevant to the actual facts that exist and SAAC's position which is my position and the overwhelming majority of current production Cobra owners I have conversed with both in person and email over the past 15 years. Many many more current production owners than bother to participate on this cite due to the fact t this cite is seen as very biased against the current production Cobras and constantly demean them. Most if not all of this "knocking" coming from not surprisingly those that don't own Shelbys.

In light of the commonly intended meaning of the word "replica" as correctly laid out by the Registry which does not comport with the correct Websters definition of the word, no. I'm not stepping into that trap. Thanks for the invitation anyway though. I'll just stick with SAAC's position.

I'd prefer to have the current production Cobras acknowledged as non original genuine Cobras or authentic Shelby Cobras and those cars not fitting the "Cobra" definition set forth by SAAC as "replica Cobras".

[Tommy]

So, what SAAC has to say on the matter only matters when you agree with it. Otherwise it can be ignored. ..... Ok, I'm good with that. ... I'm out of here for another month or so.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by Tommy

So, what SAAC has to say on the matter only matters when you agree with it. Otherwise it can be ignored. ..... Ok, I'm good with that. ... I'm out of here for another month or so.

When SAAC's 5th Edition comes out, the entire publication will be ignored.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

-SAI began production of current generation Shelby Cobras to exact or near exact spec of their original series in 1990s.
-SAAC issues statement sometime near and prior to 2004 stating their position. LONG before litigation SAAC has with Shelby in 2008. Statement makes clear that second series are genuine Cobras but not part of original series. Only difference between original Shelby and current production is years of manufacture. -REAL 1

1988-2010 Shelby Cobra 427 S/C Continuation Series
Improvements include a stronger steel frame and better alloys used in the components, plus better cooling and additional heat shielding to make these cars safer and more drivable without losing any of their original character.
Shelby Cobra 427 S/C Continuation Series

Point 1: Notwithstanding the two conflicting statements "exact or near exact spec of their original series" and "Only difference between original Shelby and current production is years of manufacture", it is clear that the current production Cobras, like all the replicas, are an improved copy of the originals. Note that the Continuations are offered in fiberglass and carbon fiber bodies, a further departure from "exact or near exact spec of their original series".

Point 2: Shelby decided to market the CSX4000/6000 series as continuations to separate his cars from the "replica" field. That does not make them non-replicas. On this forum where we have many cobra enthusiasts who are knowledgeable on the subject, a large number view the Continuations as replicas, including Ned Scudder (Registry curator) who is a true expert on the Shelby Cobra. To think that only the uneducated pedestrian sees continuations as replicas is untrue, this threads longevity has proved that.

Point 3: Using the Dinghy versus Rowboat analogy. Sure, Shelby can call his current production cobra a Dinghy, and all the others are Rowboats. But when you bring a "Trade Dress" lawsuit claiming unique distinction of your car against the others, and lose, then the court has ruled that your car is a Rowboat. As part of that ruling handed down by Judge Walsh, Shelby identified the 427 S/C replicas as being identified with a CSX4000 designation.

Point 4: The man behind the marketing of the Continuation Cobra, Carroll Shelby. Has he given us any reason to believe what he is producing is uniquely "different" than what was already being produced at the time. I would say no, in fact quite the contrary. When one looks at the Carroll Shelby legacy, there is evidence that his character is quite suspect when marketing or trying to sell cars.

Counterfeit Cobras
In 1993 the Los Angeles Times exposed a Carroll Shelby scheme to "Counterfeit" his own cars. With the price of an original 427 c.i. Cobra skyrocketing, Shelby had, by his own written declaration executed under penalty of perjury, caused the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the government agency responsible for titling vehicles and issuing operator permits) to utter forty-three "Duplicate Titles" for vehicles that did not officially exist in company records. A letter from AC Cars confirmed the fact that the chassis numbers Shelby had obtained titles for were never manufactured, at least by AC Cars. Only fifty-five 427 c.i. Cobras had been originally produced out of a block of serial numbers reserved for 100 vehicles. Shelby had taken advantage of a loophole in the California system that allowed one to obtain a duplicate title for a vehicle only on a written declaration, without the vehicle identification number appearing in the DMV's database or the declarant ever presenting an actual vehicle for inspection.[13] Shelby later admitted[13] that the chassis had been manufactured in 1991 and '92 by McCluskey Ltd, an engineering firm in Torrance, California, and were not authentic AC chassis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra

Final Point: Call your Continuation a non-replica genuine Shelby Cobra if you like, that puts you in a pretty small club - even some of your fellow CSX owners do not agree with that classification. The bigger picture is that you are at odds with the majority of cobra enthusiasts. So when you do get into your genuine Shelby Cobra for a nice drive, know that you can do so because your state has allowed you to register your genuine Shelby Cobra under DMV special provisions set aside for component vehicles/kit cars/replicas.

1. I don't usually rely on advertisements for my facts. Your dates I believe are incorrect. I rely on the Registry (considered world wide as the most authoritative source on these cars) and other texts from other authors. The two statements "exact or near exact to original specs" are not conflicting but differ in degree. Black and white conflict. Cobra and "replica Cobra" (as the term "replica" is incorrectly commonly used and intended) conflict. SAAC explains this clearly. Current production Cobras do "continue" the shape and "design" of the original series as they must to continue the production of the car in another series by the manufacturer in this case SAI which was the manufacturer of record of the original car and the manufacturer and sells the current series of the same car in some cases with minor changes.

You can argue minutia all day long. Fiberglass not aluminum in some cases that makes not a wit of difference in the final analysis of what the car is. Carroll Shelby originally wanted to do fiberglass for the original series in fact. Original cars varied in fit and finish, it's mechanical composition and shape. So? A difference without a difference.

Even today originals vary in authenticity from "original" to "original/restored" to "original/rebodied" to "reconstructed" that vary in correctness and originality. I could make a very very legitimate sound argument that the current production Cobras are in fact more genuine Cobras than many original restored depending on the degree of restoration and quality and certainly more genuine than "rebodied" and many "reconstructed".

2. This "replica" issue has already been addressed by SAAC and in fact Websters Dictionary. Shelby was 100% correct. He didn't want his "true replica" (See Websters and the Registry) which would be a genuine Shelby Cobra to be confused with the "boot leg fakes" of a Shelby Cobra especially since the term "replica" was now commonly used to refer to fakes of a Shelby since for 40 years no other Shelby Cobra existed at that point. The originals were considered the only real Cobras because no other Shelby Cobra existed as of the early 1990s

Like everything things change. There appeared a new Shelby Cobra on the block. Original owners don't like that nor does the Registrar of the original series but...as I say "oh well, too bad, that's life". Neither "Ned the curator" (not sure what he is the "curator" of) no matter how much he knows about original Cobras or anyone else can change the facts on the ground as they exist today. It is what it is.

This threads longevity has nothing to do with anything nor does it establish anything (0) except the bias against the new Shelbys and desperate repeated effort to paint them as nothing more than a "replica" as that term is commonly understood and used by "Joe Blow". "Joe Blow" doesn't set the standard. If they did SAAC for its Registry would have taken a poll here and from "Joe Blow"and called it a day.

The persons on this thread and on this cite by and large don't own Shelbys. They are the ones looking to "establish" something other that what the car is. They will continue to do so. The vast majority of Continuation owners don't participate on this cite. All the continuation owners I have conversed with and communicated with over the past 15 years see it as I do. I have spoken to many many owners. A miniscule microcosm of that ownership community participate here on this cite because of it's perceived bias. Fact as I have discovered over 15 years. Don't know how long you have been around this hobby but I would be surprised if it was as long as me going back to 1997 with my Exacalibur.

3. The trade dress lawsuit established nothing except that Shelby sat on his hands and allowed the shape of the Shelby Cobra to be coped for years thus putting it in the public domain. If you drop a dollar bill and don't pick it up you lose it. The "dicta" in the case referring to or using the term "replica" in it's commonly misused manner does not establish or decide a thing. That was not the issue before the court. Not even a court can stop the misuse of a term by the general public. Further, Judges makes mistakes all day long even on issues being decided. I see it every day. Sometimes there is the actual truth and fact and then there is the truth and fact as found by the court. They can be quite different. Trust me.

No other manufacture owns or has the rights to Cobra or Shelby marks. That issue is clear. Not even AC.

4. The fact that Carroll Shelby did less than honorable things does not change the facts of this issue or discussion. Who ever is familiar with this hobby and Shelby American is familiar with his "gamesmanship" regarding the Completion Series. The issue there was not whether they were genuine Shelby Cobras but a nefarious effort to pass those cars off as having original CSX 3000 chassis. Carroll Shelby was always a salesman. If anyone thinks he was in it during the 1960s for some philanthropic purpose they need medication. He was always profit motivated. Show me a business that isn't. You are not profit motivated in your business.

Carroll also did much good to. He established a heart fund. He brought us the Cobra and the many great cars he brought us. He was an automotive icon that brought home the bacon from Ferrari for the U.S. manufacturers. He brought us a great legacy and but for him you wouldn't have that chassis sitting on your floor that we have yet to see.

Finally, the only "Cobra" enthusiasts I am at odd with are those that don't own Shelbys. I get it. No problem. The small group of Shelby owners here agree with me except for a two that are free to see it their way. Even one of the two stated the Shelby has a prestige and distinction the others don't have. 100% correct. They are free to see their cars as the wish. No problem. Again, the vast majority of Shelby owners I have had contact with (which is many) see if very very differently. That I assure you. Again, they have told me they don't bother with this cite for the stated reasons.

As to DMV as a source for you argument you are free to cite DMV. I would wait for any DMV to be competent with anything before I would cite to them but you can feel free. I'll have to email SAAC and advise them they forgot to consider what DMV says.

All I know is I have a Shelby Cobra in my garage and I'm going out for a cruise to meet a friend with a Kirkham Cobra.

Enjoy your day.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

...
All I know is I have a Shelby Cobra in my garage and I'm going out for a cruise to meet a friend with a Kirkham Cobra.

Enjoy your day.

Enjoy the cruise with your friend who has the Kirkham replica, you can compare the differences between yours and SAI's 50th Anniversary Edition less some badging.

[REAL 1]

Yeah. Enjoyed the afternoon. Went for a cruise and stopped at Panera. Will post pics.

We have compared cars in the past. Shelby suspension and brakes are totally different.

Same aluminum body and chassis. Kinda like same body and chassis as the AC body and chassis just newer. Hmmm. Funny how that also works out to be true. Shelby did rebadging in the 60s just like now. Hey. Whatdaya know!!!.

He also agrees with the Registry too. See his car as a Kirkham Cobra and not a mere replica. . Doesn't really waste his time on CC as he too see this place as very biased against the current generation Cobras.

Oh, by the way, within 10 minutes of parking we had at least 5-7 people coming over and talking to us about the cars. Every one of them loved them and were awed by the bare aluminum Kirkham and the continuation Shelby. Their surprised reactions visibly noticeable when they learned it was a Shelby Cobra and didn't seem at all phased by the fact it wasn't original. In fact, when they learned it was a Shelby the Iphone pics and videos started as usual. Consistently predictable when they learn its a Shelby Cobra. Talked with them for a good 10 -15 minutes about Cobras, Cobra history, Carroll, current production Shelbys and original Shelbys.

Never had those reactions with my Excalibur or ERA. I don't know. Its just something about a Shelby and aluminum Cobras. Go figure.

Hey, enjoy your evening.

[REAL 1]

Pictures from today, enjoy.

[JBCOBRA]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Good...fair and complete non-aggressive statement of your opinions and interpretations.

Any responses should be in the same vein.

Fair and complete ;-) I am just amazed by the level of work an determination devoted by Real Evan!
I am pretty sure had I put this level of work and determination into almost anything I could have billed enough hours to buy a Real Cobra ))))

[JBCOBRA]

Evan you really do have a nice car. Drive it and enjoy it.

[twobjshelbys]

Nice photos! Sure miss the fall colors.