Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

No Evan, you post your own twisted interpretation of the Registry, and that's all you do. You have no verifiable facts outside of the registry you consistently misquote, no links to alternate sources to validate your statements, this is why your credibility is zero.

He doesn't post links, because he's afraid to be caught posting outdated information or links that are now dead.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

... Yeah, the owners of the originals have an issue but candidly they can kiss my arse ...

So far I count 3 in your support group, did I miss anyone

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

So far I count 3 in your support group, did I miss anyone

That's because there are only 3 maybe 5 Shelby owners that even bother with this mindless drivel. The rest refuse. Just ask them. But they aren't here ha.. remember that unbiased thing that ain't so.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Then why does the MSO say 1965 Shelby cobra? I could give a rats ass about the people's Republic of california. If they had just said tax that blasted emissions hog and ypu could call it what you want.

I'm still waiting for a code violation citation for the issuance of a vin and mso.

Oh and you still haven't explained how my cobra had a title for 1965 Shelby cobra after Morgester's edict came down. Oh well.

I'll let Ned speak to your question and let you do your own research. I'm not getting on your Merry-Go-Round From Hell" again :

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Regrettably, it is the Shelby organization that committed the fraud, not the buyers of their product. One has to wonder about marketing tactics that beg the law to look the other way so cars could be sold as something they clearly were not. And this is not a case of not being able to say nice things about my old friend Carroll - it's simply stating the facts.

[RodKnock]

Oh and I forgot to mention that the Registry also states that when Shelby was questioned by authorities regarding the model year being 1965 on the MSO's, he answered, and I paraphrase, "oh, that's just the model number."

Read the Registry.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Oh and you still haven't explained how my cobra had a title for 1965 Shelby cobra after Morgester's edict came down. Oh well.

No one cares about a car you sold 8 years ago Tony. You speak about it in the present tense, but you no longer own it. Let it go.

Read the Registry and go back 20-40 pages and look at Mr. Morgester's 2007 threads, which I posted for you. And anyway, you never even posted that infamous CA title that you claim to still have 8 years after you sold your CSX replica and registered it in another state.

I haven't explained how your old CSX replica got an illegal CA title? Seriously, I have to explain that to you? Oh, I don't know, maybe the CA owner committed fraud or maybe the DMV clerk made mistake. They've been known to make a few mistakes, including me in 2008 when registering my Kirkham. Does that work for you?

All of this off topic. As Ned said, "let's call a spade a spade." It's a replica!

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Cool, how are they being delivered and by whom?
Complete car, or not?

Complete - Then undeniably Jaguars (don't care if Ford own them - or if people define Jags as just glorified Fords)

NOT complete - as in needing engine, etc... then any owner passing theirs off as original 60s Jags would be subject to the same ridicule as those passing off other cars with history that they don't share.

The kit/car/dog/horse/whatever is NOT relevant.
Its the purposely contrived half truth, misleading, disingenuous behaviour that is the point. No?

If I had one of these and tried to tell everyone it was a bona fide 1960s Jag... seriously, what would you say?

Like I said...built in-house as complete vehicles (all running gear).

Guess the mail boat hasn't arrived down there yet...Ford hasn't owned Jaguar for more than a few years now.

Not sure what the six owners will receive in terms of pedigree and valuation. I recall a bit of a fuss when folks put down money for XJ220s and got a few cylinders less than what they bargained for.

Here's where I have difficulty...

Jaguar is building those six lovelies to nearly (but not completely) the same specs as the original Lightweights, and they will all be built the same way.

CSXs are completed by a variety of different folks, each lending their own take on the subject, whether they are dealer-"related" shops or even the end users themselves. Engine choice, while typically more common (427 SOs, but some are original iron while many are modern Shelby arruminum motors, or other arruminum engine mfgs, etc.) than other makes, still aren't standardized. then you have the matter of glass vs arruminum bodies, etc. and you start realizing that modern Shelby Cobras are somewhere between a blank canvass and a partial completed painting, while the Jags are completed paintings that are very close to the original masterworks, albeit on new canvas and using new paint applied by new brushes.

Let's compare the situation to watches (hehehe...). There are original Rolex Daytonas like the Paul Newmans, and then you have modern Daytonas with evolved movements and complications, and cases in precious metals rather than stainless steel, albeit still within the Rolex realm. Same with Heuer Monacos and the modern TAG Heuer Monacos with completely different movements.

Can you compare a modern Daytona with an original from the 60s? Closer to Shelby, given the different ownership/corporate entities, can you compare a modern Monaco with an original one like McQueen wore?

I personally don't think so, and the marketplace bears that out. Now, what do you call the modern versions?

Beats the sh** out of me. I know one thing...I own an original Kirkham of sufficient provenance to establish that it was the first widely-known customer BNL, and the first to have an arruminum scoop (rather than glass) to be used in an unpainted finish, and assolutely the very first with fat-ass interior modification pkg to fit my fat ass in it...akin to a Gurney bubble in my mind.

...and was test driven up Squaw's Peak by some crazy Polish-speaking Mormon kid while I was holding on for dear life looking over the cliff.

In other words, that's my Cobra...and if you love yours as much as I do mine, than you get it. But mine's better because it's mine.

[SFSDFGT]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

So far I count 3 in your support group, did I miss anyone

You can add me to the list.

As Tony said, many of us are not vocal because frankly we don't have the time or inclination to bother with this nonsense.

The way I see it (and I suspect that many other CSX4000,6000 owners do too), there most certainly IS a difference between a true, CSX-numbered Shelby, and the plethora of "other" Cobras. Not saying that some others (Kirkhams come to mind) might not be a better built car, but there is a reason I/we were willing to pay a bit more for the Shelby badge (and not one installed by the owner to make it look like a Shelby). At shows, people seem quite interested to find that my car is a real (not original 60s) aluminum-bodied Shelby cobra, even though I am quick to point out the year in which it was built, and give a quick rundown of the significant difference in rarity and value between mine and an early, original car. They are just so used to seeing the typical "other" brands, that seeing an actual Shelby-brand cobra is still cool to them.

None of us are idiots. Nobody is confusing their CSX4000/6000 with one built in the 60s. My hat is off to the fortunate few to own those gems. To be truthful, while I could afford to purchase an original, I'm sure that I wouldn't drive it and enjoy it the same way I do my CSX4000 car, yet I still have the satisfaction of having something with a true Shelby badge.

I certainly don't look down on FFRs, Paces, etc. As a true "car guy", I love to see all of these beauties, and the various customizations by their owners. But if the prices of these cars matched the prices of the more recent CSX cars, wouldn't most people just as soon own the real Shelby? I don't get all of the animosity directed at the CSX4000/6000 cars. We're all car people here, right? Can't we all just get along? Lol.

Just my $0.02

[Jamo]

SFSDFGT...yup.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by SFSDFGT

You can add me to the list.

As Tony said, many of us are not vocal because frankly we don't have the time or inclination to bother with this nonsense.

The way I see it (and I suspect that many other CSX4000,6000 owners do too), there most certainly IS a difference between a true, CSX-numbered Shelby, and the plethora of "other" Cobras. Not saying that some others (Kirkhams come to mind) might not be a better built car, but there is a reason I/we were willing to pay a bit more for the Shelby badge (and not one installed by the owner to make it look like a Shelby). At shows, people seem quite interested to find that my car is a real (not original 60s) aluminum-bodied Shelby cobra, even though I am quick to point out the year in which it was built, and give a quick rundown of the significant difference in rarity and value between mine and an early, original car. They are just so used to seeing the typical "other" brands, that seeing an actual Shelby-brand cobra is still cool to them.

None of us are idiots. Nobody is confusing their CSX4000/6000 with one built in the 60s. My hat is off to the fortunate few to own those gems. To be truthful, while I could afford to purchase an original, I'm sure that I wouldn't drive it and enjoy it the same way I do my CSX4000 car, yet I still have the satisfaction of having something with a true Shelby badge.

I certainly don't look down on FFRs, Paces, etc. As a true "car guy", I love to see all of these beauties, and the various customizations by their owners. But if the prices of these cars matched the prices of the more recent CSX cars, wouldn't most people just as soon own the real Shelby? I don't get all of the animosity directed at the CSX4000/6000 cars. We're all car people here, right? Can't we all just get along? Lol.

Just my $0.02

Great. Now for the million dollar question. How do you answer the question of:
Is that a kit car?
Yes or no?

Thank you kindly for you candid post.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by SFSDFGT

You can add me to the list.

As Tony said, many of us are not vocal because frankly we don't have the time or inclination to bother with this nonsense.

The way I see it (and I suspect that many other CSX4000,6000 owners do too), there most certainly IS a difference between a true, CSX-numbered Shelby, and the plethora of "other" Cobras. Not saying that some others (Kirkhams come to mind) might not be a better built car, but there is a reason I/we were willing to pay a bit more for the Shelby badge (and not one installed by the owner to make it look like a Shelby). At shows, people seem quite interested to find that my car is a real (not original 60s) aluminum-bodied Shelby cobra, even though I am quick to point out the year in which it was built, and give a quick rundown of the significant difference in rarity and value between mine and an early, original car. They are just so used to seeing the typical "other" brands, that seeing an actual Shelby-brand cobra is still cool to them.

None of us are idiots. Nobody is confusing their CSX4000/6000 with one built in the 60s. My hat is off to the fortunate few to own those gems. To be truthful, while I could afford to purchase an original, I'm sure that I wouldn't drive it and enjoy it the same way I do my CSX4000 car, yet I still have the satisfaction of having something with a true Shelby badge.

I certainly don't look down on FFRs, Paces, etc. As a true "car guy", I love to see all of these beauties, and the various customizations by their owners. But if the prices of these cars matched the prices of the more recent CSX cars, wouldn't most people just as soon own the real Shelby? I don't get all of the animosity directed at the CSX4000/6000 cars. We're all car people here, right? Can't we all just get along? Lol.

Just my $0.02

Well expressed and thanks for chiming in with your perspective. The facts are the facts but the opinions are eternally debatable. Nobody (of sound mind, at least) hates CSX Continuations or their owners - 80% of the banter is mostly about Evan's hilarious bombast and tenacity (bless him though). It's sort of like kids teasing and pissing off the neighbor's chained up dog and getting the same rise out of him every time.

The rest is all about the use and interpretation of the word REAL as well as the conflicting perceptions about the value of the modern day Shelby branding. Nothing serious but there will always be some debate.

[REAL 1]

Hey Ned: Guess what it already happened. Have you read post 1111? Those are not the words of a potato. That's a potato quoting the potatoes who said and wrote what they wrote in the 4th Edition of the World Registry of Cobras and GT 40's. You should notify them immediately of their errors. They made them all over and throughout that book. Doesn't anybody over there know what they are doing or saying. You must have been asleep at the wheel?

Here is the deal Ned. Of course the Continuation Series are the true replicas of the original car. See your club's registry and Websters. Duh. SAI doesn't need the same corporate structure, the same employees, the same fabrication process etc...to generate genuine Shelby Cobras of a continuation series. They needed Carroll to want to produce a new Shelby Cobra and sell it to the public that was the same or damn near the same in shape and design as his original. It's a "continuation" series Ned. Not an original series silly. It stands on its own in its own series of Shelby Cobras. Let that marinate for awhile. Your club's Registry got it correct.

You club's Registry explains the misuse of that term "replica". Perhaps you didn't read it or perhaps you just don't like it and still push your agenda.

I am using your club's definition of these cars Ned. Not Joe Public's that has been misused. Gee, even your club's Registry implicitly says their definitions should be followed and used as owners tend to use "their own" definitions. Apparently you don't like that section of the Registry either.

Does SAAC know your over here with the barbarians taking a dump on their Registry to push your own personal views? They sold a lot of those books to enthusiast purporting it to be the leading authoritative text on Cobras. Sad that it contains all those misstatements as to the Continuation Cobras. Like I said, notify them immediately.

The new Indian Motorcycles replicate the originals. They are true replicas coming from the reconstituted company. They are not fake Indians are they? No, very simply they are not.

No one is challenging the special place originals have. I'm not certainly. I love them and their history and what they provided to me and others in this hobby. Carroll brought enthusiasts more cars after the originals in the 60's to enthusiasts who love what these cars are and the history behind them. Some of them continue his original car very closely and are "true replicas" and genuine Shelby Cobras some are totally new such as the KR (which did not "replicate the original" in 2008-9) Supersnakes etc.... Those are genuine Shelbys also.

The point is rather simple Ned it's a genuine Cobra. Not an original but an authentic Shelby Cobra. Neither you nor anyone can change that fact.

But I suppose to you and your blinding bias your Club's Registry just gave life to Pinocchio. I get your issue. All Continuation owners get your issue. It's patent.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

So far I count 3 in your support group, did I miss anyone

Yeah, you missed a whole bunch. A lot. Fact. However, many continuation owners don't bother with this site and you and your buddies are living examples of why as is this thread and every thread you and your buddies get a chance to take a dump on the Continuation Cobras which is frequent.

Oh, yeah, you can add to my support group the SAAC committee that published the words found in post #1111.

Hey, you asked.

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Hey Ned: Guess what it already happened. Have you read post 1111? Those are not the words of a potato. That's a potato quoting the potatoes who said and wrote what they wrote in the 4th Edition of the World Registry of Cobras and GT 40's. You should notify them immediately of their errors. They made them all over and throughout that book. Doesn't anybody over there know what they are doing or saying. You must have been asleep at the wheel?

Here is the deal Ned. Of course the Continuation Series are the true replicas of the original car. See your club's registry and Websters. Duh. SAI doesn't need the same corporate structure, the same employees, the same fabrication process etc...to generate genuine Shelby Cobras of a continuation series. They needed Carroll to want to produce a new Shelby Cobra and sell it to the public that was the same or damn near the same in shape and design as his original. It's a "continuation" series Ned. Not an original series silly. It stands on its own in its own series of Shelby Cobras. Let that marinate for awhile. Your club's Registry got it correct.

You club's Registry explains the misuse of that term "replica". Perhaps you didn't read it or perhaps you just don't like it and still push your agenda.

I am using your club's definition of these cars Ned. Not Joe Public's that has been misused. Gee, even your club's Registry implicitly says their definitions should be followed and used as owners tend to use "their own" definitions. Apparently you don't like that section of the Registry either.

Does SAAC know your over here with the barbarians taking a dump on their Registry to push your own personal views? They sold a lot of those books to enthusiast purporting it to be the leading authoritative text on Cobras. Sad that it contains all those misstatements as to the Continuation Cobras. Like I said, notify them immediately.

The new Indian Motorcycles replicate the originals. They are true replicas coming from the reconstituted company. They are not fake Indians are they? No, very simply they are not.

No one is challenging the special place originals have. I'm not certainly. I love them and their history and what they provided to me and others in this hobby. Carroll brought enthusiasts more cars after the originals in the 60's to enthusiasts who love what these cars are and the history behind them. Some of them continue his original car very closely and are "true replicas" and genuine Shelby Cobras some are totally new such as the KR (which did not "replicate the original" in 2008-9) Supersnakes etc.... Those are genuine Shelbys also.

The point is rather simple Ned it's a genuine Cobra. Not an original but an authentic Shelby Cobra. Neither you nor anyone can change that fact.

But I suppose to you and your blinding bias your Club's Registry just gave life to Pinocchio. I get your issue. All Continuation owners get your issue. It's patent.

Here is the deal Ned. Of course the Continuation Series are the true replicas of the original car. See your club's registry and Websters. Duh. SAI doesn't need the same corporate structure, the same employees, the same fabrication process etc...to generate genuine Shelby Cobras of a continuation series. They needed Carroll to want to produce a new Shelby Cobra and sell it to the public that was the same or damn near the same in shape and design as his original. It's a "continuation" series Ned. Not an original series silly. It stands on its own in its own series of Shelby Cobras. Let that marinate for awhile. Your club's Registry got it correct.

Spot on Evan couldn't agree more. Regardless of the region of the world, suppliers, etc., is irrelevant. The CSX4000 series are simply the "next genertaion" (continuation) of a Shelby Cobra from the originator of the Original 3000 cars. An MSO issued by the originator (doesn't have to be 100% identical car) is as Real as it gets. Not sure what isn't clear and or accepting in what you're stating.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'll let Ned speak to your question and let you do your own research. I'm not getting on your Merry-Go-Round From Hell" again :

"let you do your own research" is an anachronism for "the answer doesn't fit my response tree and would disprove my claim" so unless and until you answer the question I will assume it would destroy your case. (I already know the answer, and it does).

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I haven't explained how your old CSX replica got an illegal CA title? Seriously, I have to explain that to you? Oh, I don't know, maybe the CA owner committed fraud or maybe the DMV clerk made mistake. They've been known to make a few mistakes, including me in 2008 when registering my Kirkham. Does that work for you?

None of the above. The title was issued AFTER the magic date, and the internal checks and balances would have prevented it had it been so. I checked before I bought it just to be sure. So once again. Bzzzzt.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

"let you do your own research" is an anachronism for "the answer doesn't fit my response tree and would disprove my claim" so unless and until you answer the question I will assume it would destroy your case. (I already know the answer, and it does).

You can't seem to do any of your own research. I call that lazy. At least Evan does research, though he comes to the wrong conclusions.

Post your 10+/- year old CA title from your Mexican-built CSX that you no longer own. We haven't seen it yet.

If you can do it before you go to the Red Lobster buffet that would be great. Thanks.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

None of the above. The title was issued AFTER the magic date, and the internal checks and balances would have prevented it had it been so. I checked before I bought it just to be sure. So once again. Bzzzzt.

Sure Tony, whatever gets you to sleep at night. The law in CA is the law. And there's no proof your old car had a CA title. Post up the title.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Sure Tony, whatever gets you to sleep at night. The law in CA is the law. And there's no proof your old car had a CA title. Post up the title.

Pretty low. I won't play YOUR merry go round game. I've already posted the relevant info from the title. You can go find it. Why do you find it impossible to answer a question?

[ERANJ]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You can't seem to do any of your own research. I call that lazy. At least Evan does research, though he comes to the wrong conclusions.

Post your 10+/- year old CA title from your Mexican-built CSX that you no longer own. We haven't seen it yet.

If you can do it before you go to the Red Lobster buffet that would be great. Thanks.

Didn't think anyone on the site was anointed to claim someone is making the wrong conclusions. Difference in view/opinion but not wrong.

What does a CA title have to do with the discussion at hand and why not stick to the topic?