"How much power is enough"...take #2

[xb-60]

I was watching the Lynn Park Youtube video again the other day...you probably know the one..."Meet Mr Cobra: The King of Shelby Cobras"
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A63kWP9DrKQ#t=306[/ame]

....and his comments about the Cobra being a fun car made me think back to an old thread about "how much power is enough?".

Some of his comments...

A Cobra is "the most fun car you can race"
"What a lot of guys do" is they "can't leave the motor alone" .... "they don't think the stock motor is enough"
"They want to build more and more and more horsepower"
"Then [the motors] become a little unmanageable"
..."they want to overheat"
...[the cars] "want to oversteer"
[The cars] "are hard to get launched off the line" ...."feathering the clutch"...."feathering the gas"
"The stock Cobra, the way it was built, is just the most fun car to drive on the street in the whole wide world"

And of course he's talking about 289 Cobras, not big blocks.

So, resurrecting a topic from an old thread - how much power is enough?
If a Cobra, in original standard K-code 271hp form or race tune of say, 380hp, is "just the most fun car to drive on the street in the whole wide world" and "the most fun car you can race" , why do some of you hot-rodders out there want to chase 500 or 600 hp (or more) in a 90" wheelbase car that's driven on the street?
I've seen it mentioned (quite a number of times) that cars do have throttle pedals, and you don't have to use it all etc. etc., but boys will be boys....and a foot on a throttle pedal doesn't accommodate the sneeze factor.

Please tell me why your car is more enjoyable on the street because it's got massively more power than the next guy....?

Cheers,
Glen

[rodneym]

OK, I'll bite.

A Twin Paxton 511FE is "too much" in the same way DD's are too much.
Too unbalanced for the track. Definately more fun on the street.
I can always take the belt off for the yawn of 650 HP.
Traction in 1st and 2nd is very tough but I tell you, from 60 mph and up...
I'm not a pugnacious driver but when the conditions are right...no supercar nor street bike...(well, with the exception of a LaFerrari or 918).
Maybe it's time for more power?

[csx4910]

Gosh nowI feel inadequate to its my measley 620 non supercharged horsepower 511��.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by rodneym

.....Traction in 1st and 2nd is very tough but I tell you, from 60 mph and up...
I'm not a pugnacious driver but when the conditions are right...no supercar nor street bike...(well, with the exception of a LaFerrari or 918).
Maybe it's time for more power?

OK, I'll bite too.....so 60mph and above, and ideally in a straight line, I assume?
I'm thinking that a street bike (or a 289 Cobra ) might just run away and disappear in the distance when the going gets twisty

Cheers,
Glen

[rodneym]

Ally BB cars are well balanced.
If comparing CSX2's to 3's back in the day, in the twisties...IDK, maybe.
In hands of pros, I'd bet on the BB.
The fastest race Cobras were the BB cars.
The BB Cobras had legs into the 70's.
Bruce's Auto-X champ wouldn't be as fast in a leaf spring chassis.

And if you think a 289 would 'disappear' in the distance, offer one up.
Belt on or off, your choice.

[xb-60]

Unfortunately not every Cobra replica owner with 600hp/ton is a proficient racing driver or has the ability of one. I certainly don't.

Cheers,
Glen

[RICK LAKE]

xb 60 Glen Which power are you talking about? HP or Torque? IMO I will take 600+ of torque any day over HP. Torque moves the car and HP is needed at upper rpms to power the car in high speed.
You can't compare the original Shelbys with todays replic cobras. The frames are stronger, better suspensions, better engineering of parts. no wire wheels, Better exhaust systems. The list goes on. In the 60's they where the top of the list for great cars. Light power to weight ratio low, SIMPLE. How many people bought a cobra, drove it once and sold it. The number has not changed today with maybe 5-7% of all owners can drive a cobra to it's limits in control. I can't. I have fun with mine.
You have guys with cobras running 800+ HP. Some are animals, some are controlled without any problems. IN the old days you really had to drive a cobra and not get lazy at the wheel. Today we have the best of both worlds, Silly power, power steering, ABS brakes, FI systems, Traction control, even AC in the special few. I also believe that there are a couple twin turbo cars and blower cars floating in the mix. All streetable.
As far as big block against small block, it depends on the application of use. I do know that SB cars can chase BB cars all day on short tracks and some times win because of less power and better control.
The question of how much power, I am looking for enough to go 200 mph at Maxon. I still want to drive the car back to the trailer and not over heat.
The only issue with the power rating here on this forum is WHERE these numbers are coming from?? I bet 90% are coming from the crankshaft and not the rearwheels. FIgure a 20% of power for the drivetrain. You say 600 hp minus 20% and you have only 480hp give or take a few. My numbers are at the crankshaft of 520 hp and 618ft torque. Depending on tires, I can lay rubber in 3 gears. I don't because of tire cost and damage to the car and drivetrain.


RodneyM I will take the 511 twin blower car anytime. It's all in the setup. Put a waste valves on each the intake pipes, a balance pipe between the 2 pressure tubes. A electronic control waste gate system to control boost and a water injection system and you have one hell off a car for all sports. You didn't say if the car was FI? I would like a 47/53 front to rearend ratio of weight. Last notes, is the blower drive clog, surp or "V" belts?? Are the blowers gear drive internally or ball bearing? Once you get past 6-7 pounds of boost from a ballbearing blower they slip like crazy. Gear drive doesn't. And if you have the money their are now electronic motor driven blowers. Dial up the boost as needed. The rest is on the drivers skills. Rick L

[itstock]

At some point, a given power level will get boring. The natural progression of a driver is to move up from class to class until they reach the top levels, not stay in a kart for their entire life.

Of course there are a million outside factors to the above statement though.

[bobcowan]

There's no such thing as too much power; only not enough control.

[mikeinatlanta]

I believe that for my purposes, my 700 naturally aspirated hp is enough. That is, it is enough that I can accurately calculate my nitrous needs.

[Tom Wells]

I kinda like this one:

The following quote has been attributed to (Mark) Donohue: "If you can make black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner until the braking point of the next turn, then you have enough horsepower."

[RET_COP]

Naturally Aspirated HP on the edge of the best pump fuel gives you SOUND and FEEL even if not used to it's potential. You can't get that with low HP motors. Anything approaching 1.4-1.5 HP/CI is all about that. You may have to pay attention to things like fuel grade, timing, A/F ratio, plug heat range, under the hood temps. I like that part of it. It's personal preference

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

....In the 60's they where the top of the list for great cars. Light power to weight ratio low, SIMPLE. How many people bought a cobra, drove it once and sold it. The number has not changed today with maybe 5-7% of all owners can drive a cobra to it's limits in control. I can't. I have fun with mine.
......Today we have the best of both worlds, Silly power, power steering, ABS brakes, FI systems, Traction control, even AC in the special few. I also believe that there are a couple twin turbo cars and blower cars floating in the mix. All streetable.
As far as big block against small block, it depends on the application of use. I do know that SB cars can chase BB cars all day on short tracks and some times win because of less power and better control.....

Hi Rick,
OK...I admit, I'm stirring the pot.
I just think that there's a limit to what's safe in a light car with a short wheelbase, no traction control or ESC and in the hands of an average driver. 600+ hp in a Ferrari or an SLS Merc is backed up with all sorts of electronic nannies that go some way to making them safer. How many street driven Cobra replicas have any of those 'nannies'?
Racing a car on a track is a totally different situation of course.
My car will have around 300hp at the flywheel. Almost all of my driving will be on quiet Adelaide Hills roads, and a power to weight ratio of a bit under 300hp/ton would see off most locals here.


Cheers,
Glen

[itstock]

Whatever makes you feel better xb-60. That just seems like a lot of words for "I have no self control on the street." I guess some people just need that constant nanny state.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by Tom Wells

I kinda like this one:
The following quote has been attributed to (Mark) Donohue: "If you can make black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner until the braking point of the next turn, then you have enough horsepower."

Yes I know that one. I think I included that in the original thread "How much power is enough" take #1
It makes me think, yes, I like that. That's 'adequate'....but then that's on a track. That's professional drivers with different levels of car control to most of the rest of us.
To balance it, I like Lynn Park's words also ...."The stock Cobra, the way it was built, is just the most fun car to drive on the street in the whole wide world"
No doubt some of us have different ideas of what "fun" is

Cheers,
Glen

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by itstock

....I guess some people just need that constant nanny state.

I think you're right. I don't want the nanny controls, but I want to be able to enjoy what I've got, and not be too scared to use it.

Cheers,
Glen

[Dimis]

You could probably afford a little more.
The AP suspension set up looks a tad more advanced than a 60s ladder frame AC.
I suspect it would cope just fine.

However if you did want more, my humble tip is do it by adding cubes, and matching cam and heads. Don't just jump to a higher cam, it potentially could run like a dog at street rpm. 800-2500rpm.

Either way, the attention to detail you are putting in your car, it's going to be a sweet little champ!
Waiting with baited breath for the final outcom me.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by Dimis

You could probably afford a little more.
The AP suspension set up looks a tad more advanced than a 60s ladder frame AC.
I suspect it would cope just fine.

However if you did want more, my humble tip is do it by adding cubes, and matching cam and heads. Don't just jump to a higher cam, it potentially could run like a dog at street rpm. 800-2500rpm.

Either way, the attention to detail you are putting in your car, it's going to be a sweet little champ!
Waiting with baited breath for the final outcom me.

Adding cubes? Nup. Seriously, if I had free reign, I would be using a standard bore/stroke 289 that would zing to 7k, with a solid flat tappet cam and 4 x IDA Webers
I know, reasonably high tech AP chassis, but matched with a '60s engine? Is he crazy?
It's in-bred. I can't help it

[xb-60]

Forgot

Originally Posted by Dimis

....Either way, the attention to detail you are putting in your car, it's going to be a sweet little champ!.....

Oh, thanks!

[1985 CCX]

Hmmmmm

I agree with Lynn.
I have driven "dirtbag" and found the 271hp awesome.

My Weber car us about 350 and a blast. Easy to handle and scoots.
Car #2 will be more like 275, by choice.

Driven a few 400-450hp big cars. Very fun from torque standpoint.
However I prefer 289 cars.