Time for FE rebuild

[SFSDFGT]

Well, with only 2900 miles or so on my cobra, but largely unknown history of my car before I bought it 1.5 years/ 400 miles ago, I am committed to the idea of having the 427 SO pulled this winter and rebuilt. It just doesn't run as strong as it should, and I am nervous about some near-catastrophes that have happened in the short time since I have owned it, such as one rocker shaft breaking, and rocker studs vibrating loose repeatedly (these two problems connected, of course). Also, despite being told that my engine is a 472" stroker that requires race gas, it just doesn't perform as strong as it should. It only made about 350 rwhp on the dyno. Furthermore, last summer I think it overheated too much when the fan quit working, and now I am worried that something is warped (heads, exhaust valves?) because I am now hearing WAY too much popping from the exhaust. I used to only hear the loveliest popping on deceleration, and now it sounds like some soft misfiring, every time I let off the gas.

The engine is the original (as far as I know) all-aluminum Shelby 427, but one receipt that came with the car said "472 stroker, 110 race fuel only". I would think such an engine would make 500-600 hp, and well over 400 at the wheels, so something is wrong here.

The good news- I really don't mind spending the money on a rebuild. I found a great shop locally that seems really good with FEs, and they really did some trick stuff with the 352 from my 1965 F100 that is almost done being restored.

My questions to the crowd- I have always loved the look of the twin-carb 427s, and have been debating switching from my single 4-barrel in the turkey pan. Not that my car is an original (just a CSX 4000 series), but would it still be foolish to change it from the way it was originally built? I guess value-wise, it doesn't really matter anyway, since I doubt I will ever sell it. But where can one purchase the correct intake and carb setup for the 427 SO with the 4 x 2? I like the look of the individual air cleaners too, rather than the long oval ones that go around both carbs.

Also (and I know that we will know more when the engine shop tears my engine down), but if I need a new rotating assembly, I am thinking I should just have it rebuilt to run on pump gas. Keeping all of these fuel cans and a barrel of Sunoco 110 in the garage makes me nervous, not to mention the expense of it. Sure smells great, though! I would think one could really still make the power I desire on pump gas, right? Is a durable, reliable 600 (crank) hp realistic on pump gas? With the 4x2 carb setup?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts on this.

[Dimis]

It sounds like you got a few things going on at once here.

1. I dare not suggest anything with regard the issues you're experiencing. I'm too far removed and too inexperienced to hazzard a guess.
You're right though - Heat is the enemy and overheating could have fouled many things.
I will hazzard this guess if you'll allow - 472 stroker shelby block, in a CSX4 series, sounds like it may have been built by Gessford engines...? Maybe shoot them a call and quote the block number to see what they know.

2. For me, Cobras are all about the engine. 4x2 looks the goods under the hood!
Next best thing to an 8 stack, but without the headaches. Sure it's twice and complicated as a single carb, but it's also at least twice as nice

As for the intake, try DSC Motorsport (I went for a tunnel wedge myself, a single plane intake, but the blue thunder dual plane are very nice too). DSC Motorsport

Or ask the boys on the FORDFE.com forum.

3. 600hp on pump gas shouldn't be hard, with the cubes you've got already.
It could even be made streetable.
If it were me, I wouldn't worry about the HP numbers. Just get an engine builder you trust and that "knows" what you are after, and have him build it.
I've a theory that suggests a 500hp dual quad, dual plane intake, cam'ed appropriately, is more than enough to spin the tires in almost every gear, almost every time you mash the pedal.

Good luck with your engine!
...and keep us posted. I love the engine (re-)build threads.

[Ron61]

I had my engine detuned a year or so ago so I can run it on pump gas as I am to old to race any more and really enjoy not having to use the 110 leaded racing gas in both cars all of the time. The one that I had detuned was just a 351 stroked to 410 and it still makes around 387 horsepower at the rear wheels, so I think your 427 should make a lot more. If you are going to have it gone through, have them check everything and talk to them about the pump gas and what you will need to get it to run well on that.

Ron

[DanEC]

I think I would start with the basics and do a compression test and a leak down test first. The gauges to use for this are not real expensive but you do need an air compressor for the leak down test. That will tell you if you have any ring or valve issues and even if you have any head gasket issues (bubbles in the coolant. The compression test may give some clue as to if you really need to be running race gas or not. Next you can do a simple test for an intake manifold gasket leak with a can of starter fluid or a propane torch by going around all the gasket edges with the engine idling and noting if the engine speed increases while spaying a bit of starter fluid or unlit gas at any location. If all that shows the engine is solid then you may just need to give the thing a good tuning and optimize the carb and timing. Or if it is showing problems then back to finding a builder in your neck of the woods.

You could still switch to a dual quad intake if you want - Keith Craft recommended the Blue Thunder MR intake when he was building my engine but due to using a smooth hood I had to go with a 427 LR intake.

The dual carbs and intake are a sizable investment. If you want authentic restoration appearance carbs they are available (600 cfm) from a couple sources but a pair will run quite a bit. If not so concerned about proper Ford era carbs then there are newer 600 cfm Holley and Quick Fuel carbs that will work fine - although to have them set up by a good engine builder they will end up costing you about the same as the restoration carbs. Good news is the old S&H air cleaners are cheap - but they don't flow much air. The filter they use is basically what a Yugo used. K&N makes a couple different thickness replacement filters that will flow a bit more if you have overhead room but there is no way they won't be restrictive for max power. But then think of all the guys running 500 HP motors with a single carb/K&N in a turkey pan - hard to understand how they can get any power out of that.

[66gtk]

Sorry to hear about your engine woes. I hope you can get it nailed down without too much trouble/expense. If you want dual carbs, go for it. It's my favorite look, and I don't care if it's an S/C type car. Unless you are tracking/racing that car, tuning it for street gas and street use might provide you with more enjoyment. Forget about chasing horsepower numbers. There is enough power to weight ratio to kill you with half the potential power of that FE.

Not a CSX, but I have had the pleasure to own 2 ERA 427s with the dual carb setup and I find myself peeking under the hood WAY TOO often. Hell, I take the garbage out, the car catches my eye and I lift up the hood and I feel better that day!

Both of these setups used the late model Holley 600s that Dan mentioned here. The original Ford matching carbs and intake is VERY expensive. An old school mechanic can tune your dual carb setup to perfection and you will not have to worry about it too much. As Dan said, the green foam air cleaners are restrictive (so are side pipes), so don't spend an extra 10K chasing horsepower in your engine build if the car can't breathe! On the red car below I found some WIX filters at the auto store that were not very expensive. A bit taller than the green foam, but I removed the outer metal grille from the S&H filters and carefully fit it over the new paper filters. It fits pretty well and I'm satisfied with the setup.

[SFSDFGT]

Thanks for the replies and info, folks. I really appreciate all of your input, and the links! Very helpful.

I did already do a static compression check- all cylinders are within 5 lbs of 195 psi. I haven't done a leakdown test, but since I desire to make it pump-gas friendly, I am already committed to a teardown, so I probably won't bother with it. Same with the intake-leak test, although these are great suggestions if I wanted to just prolong the use of the engine, as is.

As for the carbs, I will probably try and go the route of the originals. I am not afraid to spend some coin on this project. This car is still much cheaper to deal with then some of my others. I just want it to be done RIGHT, and I want this powerplant to be capable of scaring me, which is hard to do, but I feel that of the cars in my garage, THIS is the car that really should be the ultimate BEAST.

66gtk- gorgeous engine shots. YES, that is the look I want!

I will probably commence with this project in January-February, and will be sure to update the forum. Thanks again.

[SFSDFGT]

Just thought of another potential snag with the 2x4 carb swap- hood clearance. Hard to say just by looking, but it looks like the opening in my hood is not long enough for two carbs. I suppose if it is close, it could be trimmed a bit. Unless I go with a lower-profile manifold, but I suppose that would limit the horsepower in the upper rpm range. I really want the engine to make power to at least 6,000 rpm.

Also, I will take this opportunity to change my fuel lines to the correct ones.

[SFSDFGT]

Hood scoop opening

[DanEC]

You may be OK but you may not know for sure until you try it. A 427 LR intake will definately fit and it should make power to 6000 rpm - at least that was what they were designed to do. I know they do make a bunch of torque.





I doubt the back carb will cause you much trouble with a medium riser but the front carb will definately sit up inside the scoop. I have a copy of the Great FE Intake Comparison book and I'll see if it has some useful dimensions in it and post them later.

[DanEC]

Here are some dimensions. The setback dimension is from the front manifold bolt hole to the front carb, front stud. The manifold height figures are from the base gasket face at the valley (front and rear) to a straight edge laid across the carb base. These are all dual quad.

Blue Thunder MR reproduction
Setback - 4.75 inch
Height (F/R) 4.75 inch/6.625 inch
Power - 6000 rpm +

BT Dove Tunnel Wedge
Setback - 4.65 inch
Height - same as BT MR
Power - 7000 rpm

Edelbrock F262 2x4V (I think a LR design)
Setback - 4.75 inch
Height - 3.875 inch/5.125 inch
Power - 5800 rpm +/-

Ford 427 LR (orig)
Setback - 4.625 inch
Height - 3.625 inch/5.5 inch
Power - 5800 +/-

You may be able to do some comparison to your current single 4bbl set up in the car and get and idea where you would be with a dual quad intake.

[Phill Pollard]

Originally Posted by SFSDFGT

My questions to the crowd- I have always loved the look of the twin-carb 427s, and have been debating switching from my single 4-barrel in the turkey pan. Not that my car is an original (just a CSX 4000 series), but would it still be foolish to change it from the way it was originally built? I guess value-wise, it doesn't really matter anyway, since I doubt I will ever sell it. But where can one purchase the correct intake and carb setup for the 427 SO with the 4 x 2? I like the look of the individual air cleaners too, rather than the long oval ones that go around both carbs.

Like you, I like the look of the 2x4 way better too. I own the white 427 S/C that Troy posted pics of up above. I have seen at least a couple of *complete* OEM (Galaxie) 2x4 intake set-ups on ebay over the past year. IIRC, they were in the $2500 range but when I say complete, I mean complete. Single oval air cleaner, fuel log (like Troy has on his red car), carbs, linkage, the works.

FWIW, the first thing I did was throw out both sets of air cleaners that came on the car. The set on the car was a larger diameter filter, cut and spliced to fit inside of the air cleaner bases. The other set was a green foam filter and it created so much coughing, spitting and sputtering when I tried them, it made total sense that Troy told me to use them for show. I bought a pair of K&N filters direct from K&N for just under 100 bucks. Not only do they perform better but they look better too. Just input the OD and height (do NOT include the ID) and K&N shows three options. I think mine were OEM Fiero filters.

Troy: I got your email but just been busy with a recent health issue (dianosed with Prostate Cancer) to spend much time on it. I'll get back to you on it as soon as I can.


Phill Pollard

[Phill Pollard]

Originally Posted by SFSDFGT

Hood scoop opening

I'm pretty sure that's the same as mine. If you look at the open hood from way behind the car, is the hole off-set to the right side by about a inch or so? Mine is and I assume the engine is too (to off-set the drivers weight, as in production cars). Mine has plenty of room to spare with the air filters shown in Troy's pics.


Phill Pollard

[DanEC]

Hey Troy - is the red car your current one? I have a hard time keeping up with your stable. The Holley vacuum secondary can lids with the vacuum tube fitting can be purchased to allow linking the seconcaries on both carbs together for a common vacuum signal to ensure simultaneous operation. I got a set from Summit. Not sure it makes a lot of difference but another original looking touch.

It's interesting it has chokes on both carbs - does that work pretty well?

[Phill Pollard]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Hey Troy - is the red car your current one? I have a hard time keeping up with your stable. The Holley vacuum secondary can lids with the vacuum tube fitting can be purchased to allow linking the seconcaries on both carbs together for a common vacuum signal to ensure simultaneous operation. I got a set from Summit. Not sure it makes a lot of difference but another original looking touch.

It's interesting it has chokes on both carbs - does that work pretty well?

LOL...you picked up on the two items I was going to write Troy about.

I see the front choke has power to it but not the rear choke. I hope it is backed off all the way.

First thing I'd do is get the sec. spring covers with compensating ports and get that fixed. Then either find a choke eliminator kit for the rear carb and/or a manual choke setup for the front.

But that's just me!

And yeah, his is the red one, mine is the white one (in his pics). I see some things on his I want to change/do to mine!


Phill Pollard

[Phill Pollard]

Troy: Look at the pic of DanEC's drivers side carb's to see what we're talking about. He has the more desirable (to me, because they look more OE) sec. caps on his where mine has the ports but with the black "quick change" tops that allows you to change sec. springs without pulling the carbs about half way apart (available from Jegs, Summit, etc.).


Phill

[66gtk]

Hey guys - Yes, I'm familiar with those two things that Dan and Phil bring up. One of those chokes is simply not hooked up. As for cold starts, the car's choke operation works perfectly! That's how the car came to me completed, so it's one variable at a time. The progressive linkage works perfectly and the springs for the secondaries work perfectly, too. With a little tuning from a friend, my setup is exactly the way I think it should be performance wise. I do prefer the look of Dan's setup. Phil, we had the quick change plastic thingies that work well, but don't look as authentic (same for the fuel log). That's what I love about these cars, no two are the same. Super sucky news about your health issues, Phil. I'm so sorry!

Below is a little 427 music from the red car through ALL the RPMs (I think we limited it to 5K, though). A very gingerly upshift followed by a slightly sporty 1-2, and then the 3rd sound is a pass-by out of the car going around 5K RPM.

http://customshowboards.com/era472/ERA472enginemix.mp3

[SFSDFGT]

Awesome, thanks again, guys. Dan, those dimensions are very helpful!

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by SFSDFGT

Awesome, thanks again, guys. Dan, those dimensions are very helpful!

Your welcome - good luck with the engine.

Originally Posted by Phill Pollard

Troy: Look at the pic of DanEC's drivers side carb's to see what we're talking about. He has the more desirable (to me, because they look more OE) sec. caps on his where mine has the ports but with the black "quick change" tops that allows you to change sec. springs without pulling the carbs about half way apart (available from Jegs, Summit, etc.).


Phill

OK - I missed it didn't have power to the rear choke so it operates like mine. Good eye.

[razerwire]

Gas at pump and carb problems if car not driven much concerned me. Having engine out of Bennett car rebuilt now and going to put fuel injection on as I had T.W.M. set up laying around anyway. Have same setup on csx car and has been problem free. Also makes 660 hp on dyno and 550 at the wheels. Easy start cold and good idle, looks okay to. FWIW

[RodKnock]

IMO, the simplicity and beautiful look of the single carb inside of the turkey pan is best way to go. But I can understand scratching an itch.