Engine Option (Just For Discussion)

[CraftEngines]

I can't tell you how many times we get asked the question, "what is the best engine for a Cobra?" I can give feedback on the Kirkhams and Superformance cars we have built in house. I tell most guys it is a personal preference of 302, 351, FE, or 460. Just curious to get some responses from Cobra owners with real world experiences. Our most popular Cobra engines that we most always have going are 427ci Windsors and 482ci FEs. Let us hear your opinion.

[fordracing65]

FE for a cobra or nothing. Any engine displacement will work fine, but why????

[blykins]

My best sellers seem to be 427-445ci Windsors and 482ci FE's....

Most of my customers seem to be fixated on the appearance first and foremost, followed by a horsepower number.

[mdross1]

Back in the day was open to any engine as long as it was a big block. A long time Ford racer convinced me to go with a 385 because it was more modern and made easy big horsepower and torque. He actually had 3 FE's at that time. We all know it totally up to the owner as to their choice in motivational force.

[Tommy]

I value function over flash. But that is just one of the several reasons why I typically find myself in the minority on many matters. So I think blykins nailed it for most folks.

[Dwight]

I like a 347 or the 408


Dwight

[Thor maine]

Ok here it comes, a GM LS is superior in everyway to anything Ford has to offer past to present. But Ford makes some great engines so if you are a Ford guy go Ford. But just think of a of a Cobra with a Dodge Hellcat??? Why be locked in ? Point is if your Cobra was not made in the 1960's by AC-Shelby-Ford it is a replica and so the world is open to engines. Enjoy the ride.

[1795]

It is hard to beat the look of an FE. People can get caught up in cubic inches and HP numbers, but in reality any engine in one of these cars will produce enough power to get you in trouble in a hurry. Unless you are racing the car you will never use all of the power that it will produce.

Given the increased interest in slabsides and FIA cars, having a 302 option would be smart.

[Ron61]

If I had an original then I would have nothing but what came in it, be it a small block or big block. But since none of our cars are originals, I have had 410 strokers in mine and I raced them and enjoyed them. I have a Cobra with an original big block and I wouldn't change it for any other engine. But since most of the ones now aren't original in any way, I think that whatever engine the owner wants in theirs is OK.

Ron

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

Ok here it comes, a GM LS is superior in everyway to anything Ford has to offer past to present.

Being an engine builder who has built LS engines, along with practically every Ford engine that's been around since the 60's, I would disagree with that statement wholeheartedly.

The fact that the LS head is based solely on the Cleveland head should be a dead giveaway.

Lance, you should have known when you started this thread that the trolls would come out to play.....

[Ace23]

I will throw my opinion into the ring. I am probably one of the younger members on the board and I was still in highschool 40 years after these cars had hit the road. The engine under the hood means relatively little to me....as long as the engine bay is clean and organized then I could care less. I am more focused on the performance of my motor and the reliability of my setup as I truly enjoy driving my car. I can certainly understand how possibly there are older generations of owners that must have an FE based platform. I currently have one of Keith's 427 Windsor platforms he built back in 04.....I am now pleased with it but I am changing the camshaft to make it a bit more street friendly. I believe the larger stroked Windsors and stroked 385 series are what attracts me. If after swapping my cam doesn't change the way I feel I will then be considering going larger with my current Windsor but won't rule out a 385 platform. If you really have to know I can only imagine a supercharged modular platform or a 440 LS7 would be pretty awesome if you consider new age options. Truth be told if we all woke up with a 700hp n/a Ls7 with fuel injection in our cars we would probably not complain.....as long as no one was allowed to open their hoods! If you plan on driving your car I think the best solution is to get with a builder and consult with them on what you are wanting to get out of the car.

[Shootnride]

Originally Posted by Ace23

I will throw my opinion into the ring. I am probably one of the younger members on the board and I was still in highschool 40 years after these cars had hit the road. I can certainly understand how possibly there are older generations of owners that must have an FE based platform.

In contrast to Ace23 (and I do understand his position), I was in high school when CSX2000 rolled out of Dean Moon's shop, and I have lusted after these cars ever since. The "originals" have always been just a little too far out of my financial reach. When I finally got to a point in life where I could actually afford a replica Cobra, my goal, was to as closely as possible, replicate the experience of driving an original 427 Comp car. I believe my "old school" FE side-oiler (even has a good 'ol SFT cam) in my SPF comes pretty close to accomplishing that goal. So, for me, the FE was the only option.

Ted

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by blykins

The fact that the LS head is based solely on the Cleveland head should be a dead giveaway.

Ummm... I'm going to need to see your documented sources on that one.

The cylinder heads on all GM GenIII /GenIV performance engines were designed by Ron Sperry, using combustion chamber and port symmetries first used on the NASCAR Chevy small blocks in the late 80's, and first applied to street engines with the single-year LT4 small block in 1996.

Ron Sperry has worked as a racing engine designer for many teams during his long career with GM (going all the way back to 1963); but he has no prior association with the Ford/Lincoln Cleveland cylinder head design, nor with Cosworth.

And, if GM had "based" their cylinder head design on Ford-owned intellectual property, Ford would have raised patent infringement lawsuits long before the first LS1 Corvette rolled out of a showroom in 1997

The major US car companies ALL give away FREE pre-production examples of their significant new car designs to their competitors to disassemble and evaluate in the interest of patent, copyright, and trademark protection.

Ford R&D had its hands on a pre-production Corvette LS1 in fall of 1995. No lawsuits were ever filed by Ford regarding ANY component in the LS1 engine.

Fact is fact (and Thor Maine is correct ) - The GM GenIII and GenIV engines are the most efficient (and durable) naturally aspirated street V8 engines (in terms of torque and HP per unit of displacement) available today, and they achieved most of this efficiency through materials science and friction management.

The LS1 cylinder heads were simply the crown upon the throne, but no part of that crown was forged in Cleveland Ohio.

The Coyote engine is VERY close to "catching up" with GM's GenIII in the performance engine department, but if you guys want to have an honest discussion about who's copying whom, then let's start with GM's 18 year head-start over Ford in the compact aluminum V8 street engine department... We can start with the "coincidence" that the 1997 LS1's corkscrew style phenolic plastic intake manifold now finds a rendition of itself sitting atop the 2015 Shelby GT350 Coyote engine... (GM owns the materials patent on the all-plastic intake, BTW- GM makes money on every car Ford sells with a black plastic intake manifold )

We could also discuss the fact that Corvette Racing/Pratt and Miller have dominated both IMSA and FIA for DECADES longer than Ford did back in the late 1960's.

Ford says they're coming back to racing with the new 2017 GT- It will be interesting to see if they can repeat history and de-throne the sitting King.

[Thor maine]

Originally Posted by Shootnride

In contrast to Ace23 (and I do understand his position), I was in high school when CSX2000 rolled out of Dean Moon's shop, and I have lusted after these cars ever since. The "originals" have always been just a little too far out of my financial reach. When I finally got to a point in life where I could actually afford a replica Cobra, my goal, was to as closely as possible, replicate the experience of driving an original 427 Comp car. I believe my "old school" FE side-oiler (even has a good 'ol SFT cam) in my SPF comes pretty close to accomplishing that goal. So, for me, the FE was the only option.

Ted

This is the thing that I find odd, SPF square frame not a chassis part is even close to an original, body probably fiberglass, thinks nothing of maybe having a 5 spd, but has to have an FE or it's just not real enough for him.

[Thor maine]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

ummm... I'm going to need to see your documented sources on that one.

The cylinder heads on all gm geniii /geniv performance engines were designed by ron sperry, using combustion chamber and port symmetries first used on the nascar chevy small blocks in the late 80's, and first applied to street engines with the single-year lt4 small block in 1996.

Ron sperry has worked as a racing engine designer for many teams during his long career with gm (going all the way back to 1963); but he has no prior association with the ford/lincoln cleveland cylinder head design, nor with cosworth.

And, if gm had "based" their cylinder head design on ford-owned intellectual property, ford would have raised patent infringement lawsuits long before the first ls1 corvette rolled out of a showroom in 1997

the major us car companies all give away free pre-production examples of their significant new car designs to their competitors to disassemble and evaluate in the interest of patent, copyright, and trademark protection.

Ford r&d had its hands on a pre-production corvette ls1 in fall of 2005. No lawsuits were ever filed by ford regarding any component in the ls1 engine.

Fact is fact (and thor maine is correct ) - the gm geniii and geniv engines are the most efficient (and durable) naturally aspirated street v8 engines (in terms of torque and hp per unit of displacement) available today, and they achieved most of this efficiency through materials science and friction management.

The ls1 cylinder heads were simply the crown upon the throne, but no part of that crown was forged in cleveland ohio.

The coyote engine is very close to "catching up" with gm's geniii in the performance engine department, but if you guys want to have an honest discussion about who's copying whom, then let's start with gm's 18 year head-start over ford in the compact aluminum v8 street engine department... We can start with the "coincidence" that the 1997 ls1's corkscrew style phenolic plastic intake manifold now finds a rendition of itself sitting atop the 2015 shelby gt350 coyote engine... (gm owns the materials patent on the all-plastic intake, btw- gm makes money on every car ford sells with a black plastic intake manifold )

we could also discuss the fact that corvette racing/pratt and miller have dominated both imsa and fia for decades longer than ford did back in the late 1960's.

Ford says they're coming back to racing with the new 2017 gt- it will be interesting to see if they can repeat history and de-throne the sitting king.

Yeah what he said!!!

[blykins]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

Ummm... I'm going to need to see your documented sources on that one.

The cylinder heads on all GM GenIII /GenIV performance engines were designed by Ron Sperry, using combustion chamber and port symmetries first used on the NASCAR Chevy small blocks in the late 80's, and first applied to street engines with the single-year LT4 small block in 1996.

Ron Sperry has worked as a racing engine designer for many teams during his long career with GM (going all the way back to 1963); but he has no prior association with the Ford/Lincoln Cleveland cylinder head design, nor with Cosworth.

And, if GM had "based" their cylinder head design on Ford-owned intellectual property, Ford would have raised patent infringement lawsuits long before the first LS1 Corvette rolled out of a showroom in 1997

The major US car companies ALL give away FREE pre-production examples of their significant new car designs to their competitors to disassemble and evaluate in the interest of patent, copyright, and trademark protection.

Ford R&D had its hands on a pre-production Corvette LS1 in fall of 2005. No lawsuits were ever filed by Ford regarding ANY component in the LS1 engine.

Fact is fact (and Thor Maine is correct ) - The GM GenIII and GenIV engines are the most efficient (and durable) naturally aspirated street V8 engines (in terms of torque and HP per unit of displacement) available today, and they achieved most of this efficiency through materials science and friction management.

The LS1 cylinder heads were simply the crown upon the throne, but no part of that crown was forged in Cleveland Ohio.

The Coyote engine is VERY close to "catching up" with GM's GenIII in the performance engine department, but if you guys want to have an honest discussion about who's copying whom, then let's start with GM's 18 year head-start over Ford in the compact aluminum V8 street engine department... We can start with the "coincidence" that the 1997 LS1's corkscrew style phenolic plastic intake manifold now finds a rendition of itself sitting atop the 2015 Shelby GT350 Coyote engine... (GM owns the materials patent on the all-plastic intake, BTW- GM makes money on every car Ford sells with a black plastic intake manifold )

We could also discuss the fact that Corvette Racing/Pratt and Miller have dominated both IMSA and FIA for DECADES longer than Ford did back in the late 1960's.

Ford says they're coming back to racing with the new 2017 GT- It will be interesting to see if they can repeat history and de-throne the sitting King.

Do some research on valve angles, valve diameters, bore spacing, etc. An LS head will bolt directly to a Windsor block. Don't have time to get into a back and forth on it.....Ford guys will be Ford guys and Chevy guys will be Chevy guys.

I personally don't understand what the big deal is about the LS motor. Exhaust side of the head is so inefficient that the cam needs about 30 degrees of duration split to crutch it. New Corvette is rated at 460 hp with 378 cubic inches. What's so outstanding about that? Sure, it's a nice engine, but to make a stupid statement like it's a better engine than anything that Ford ever had is well........a stupid statement.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by blykins

Do some research on valve angles, valve diameters, bore spacing, etc. An LS head will bolt directly to a Windsor block. Don't have time to get into a back and forth on it.....

This is not accurate - It's true that GM LS style engines share bore centerlines with Ford Windsors, but they also share bore centerlines with GenI GM small blocks.

They will not "bolt directly" to a Ford Windsor. They can be made to bolt on by re-machining and re-threading the corner bolts in the Windsor block, but that accomplishes nothing, unless you designed a custom cam and pushrods to activate the valves.

Originally Posted by blykins

Ford guys will be Ford guys and Chevy guys will be Chevy guys.

Very true, and I don't begrudge anybody for brand loyalty (We all know the best, most wicked sounding engine for a Cobra would be a Mopar 426 Hemi anyway, right..?)

Originally Posted by blykins

I personally don't understand what the big deal is about the LS motor. Exhaust side of the head is so inefficient that the cam needs about 30 degrees of duration split to crutch it.

This is also technically inaccurate - The excess exhaust duration in stock GM LS engines is to improve the engine's "natural EGR" abilities. It has nothing to do with exhaust scavenging or HP - LS racing engines all run tighter cam patterns than stock street engines

Originally Posted by blykins

New Corvette is rated at 460 hp with 378 cubic inches. What's so outstanding about that?

Haha - I'll let those numbers speak for themselves - 460 NET HP from a naturally aspirated, 378 Cubic inch engine.

If that engine was tested and gross-rated the way they rated engines back in the 60's you'd be talking about 550+ HP- All from an engine that has also been durability tested, and EPA certified, to be US Federal emissions compliant for over 100,000 service miles (and also gets well over 20 MPG on the highway).

You show me Ford's equivalent NA engine, and I'll go crawl back under my rock.

Originally Posted by blykins

to make a stupid statement like it's a better engine than anything that Ford ever had is well........a stupid statement.

Show me the evidence.

[Bartruff1]

A Ford V8.....of the size you want..... to do the driving you intend to do.... and the money you are willing to spend ....

I wouldn't buy a engine to impress anyone other than me

[blykins]

As I mentioned, go look up the valve angles, etc. You'll be a little enlightened.

You need to speak to a builder who is well-versed in LS engines before you spout off "EGR abilities". The intake/exhaust flow is so horrible on some of the LS cylinder heads that the intake/exhaust ratio was well under 70%.....very poor, even by Ford FE standards.

Not sure how comparing a full race head to a street head is apples to apples, but if you want to go that direction, I would be inclined to say that the GM race cars didn't pull the heads right off the parts counter at the local dealer. Of course the camshaft selection would be different because the heads are not stock!

I'm not talking about how they rated them in the 60's. I'm talking about how they rate them now, and 1.2 hp/ci is actually pretty pathetic. Any professional builder here could take a 378 inch SBF and make 460 hp in a streetable form. Not to mention that naturally aspirated 5.0L Fords make 435 hp.....explain to me what's so nice about an LS?????

But if you want to make a comparison on how things were in the 60's, then remind me how many times Chevy won Lemans.....

[keezling]

Hard to understand the logic of getting on a Ford product based site and talking trash about Chevy vs. Ford etc. What is your goal? What do you think will happen, mass exodus to the Corvette kit car market? Oh wait almost no one makes one, not much demand I guess... Lol