XHP 260 and aluminum blocks

[Guido36]

Having searched this site and the web in general there seems to be little information on the XHP 260 - as opposed to the Hi Po 260. What I have gleaned so far is that 100 were made specifically for Shelby but that some may have been used for Ford Fairlane race cars. I have seen mention of possible aluminum blocks as used on the 1963 255 Ford Indy pushrod engine and photos of XHP 260-2 with 58mm Weber Sidedrafts on a cross ram intake designed by Phil Remington and possibly produced in a very small number by Mickey Thompson. Is there a Dean Moon connection on the intake? Can anyone shed any further light and factual history of the XHP engines and on 260/289 aluminum blocks of this era?

[Ron61]

I am not stating this as the complete fact but from the one that I saw and talking to the Shelby people way back then, the XHP-260 stood for Experimental High Performance 260 engine which was rated at 260 horsepower and was never offered to the public. I never saw one in a Fairlane or any other car except a Cobra.

Ron

[Gaz64]

Here it is here:

http://www.289register.com/cobrepl8.jpg

It says rated at 335 hp.

[Guido36]

I believe it was - at least in theory - offered by Shelby in two guises, with a 4bbl and rated at 260 hp and with more agressive solid lifter cam, higher compression and the aforementioned 58mm Weber equipped crossram as seen on XHP 260-2, at 335 hp. CSX 2000 still has it's XHP 4bbl and I have also seen photos of 260 XHP-8 as originally fitted to CSX 2001 and raced by Billy Krause. How many of the other 75 260 powered Cobras were fitted with XHP 260s and were there any aluminum blocks among them? Were there any other Weber cross ram equipped cars other than engine XHP 260-5 and was this engine fitted to a Cobra - if so, which CSX number?

For a number of years I owned an aluminum block 289 based de Tomaso engine with Gurney Weslake type heads which considerably pre dated even the earliest GW. This was reputedly one of three such engines, the other two being in the de Tomaso P70 and Sport 5000 from 1964. This was at the time that CS was collaborating with Alejandro and had Pete Brock draw up the design for these two prototypes as a potential replacement for the aging Cooper Monaco/King Cobras. CS had provided the engines or at least the aluminum blocks to Alejandro. I strongly suspect that Harry Weslake designed and supplied the heads to de Tomaso. I will attempt to post up photos I took of my engine (which came to me from Colin Chapman at Lotus from a stillborn Lotus Can Am project) during the 1970s when I figure out why I am getting failed upload messages.

[MAStuart]

I believe a member on this forum. Barry something has a leaf sprung cobra with a De tomaso headed engine in his car. I cant remember the story behind it but I think he decribed the heads as being like the ones you posted about in another post. I think he is in the Chicago land area .

Mark

Here you go! colin Comers book Cobra 50 Years

[Guido36]

Mark - you are absolutely right. Those are the same heads on an iron block in your link.

As far as I know the de Tomaso P70 had an all aluminum engine and this may have been the engine in the de Tomaso Museum, but the Sport 5000 showed up in California a couple of years ago with these heads on an iron block engine. I am still getting upload failures on the photos even though they are all within the acceptable .jpg size limits. But if you click on the links below you should be able to view them in my Photobucket album. These photos show my all aluminum engine ca 1978/79. It certainly looks all the business! I spoke with Pete Brock about this a few years ago and he remembered the all aluminum engines from his work on the P70.

What I am trying to discover is whether this was the same or similar block as 1963 Ford Indy pushrod engine with the four transverse mounted Weber 48 IDAs as driven by Dan Gurney. I am also interested in finding information on the XHP 260 aluminum blocks and the 289 aluminum blocks.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...f.jpg~original

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...a.jpg~original

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...3.jpg~original

[Jac Mac]

The heads in pics posted by Mark do not have provision for the two extra cyl head bolts per cyl that the Indy 260 alloy block was cast with, so these should/must be another alloy block casting based on the factory 260 block if these engines were as you describe.
Note also the cresent shaped coolant transfer passage which also suggests the block would be based on early production 260 ford block as IIRC the Indy car blocks were dry decked with circular (O-Ring) for coolant transfer.

[Guido36]

The external oil pump is one thing that sticks out on this block - literally! Did any of the 260 and 289 aluminum blocks have an external oil pump? Maybe this is something for the GT40 experts?

What is clearly stated in several articles on the P70 is that Shelby supplied de Tomaso with the engines before he withdrew from the development, but not until after he had dispatched Pete Brock to Italy to work with Medardo Fantuzzi to rework the unsatisfactory first Italian attempt at translating the Brock design from paper into full scale aluminum.

Does anyone have any history on the 260 and early 289 aluminum blocks?

[Jac Mac]

These pics from links on your thread create more questions. In your side view of the alloy block and heads it has the extra head bolts and notice that beside each exh port it has a longer stud ala 351c wheras the pic from link by Mark S has no extra studs and short ( normal ) type SBF outer row of studs.
Re-read chapter in Des Hammill book, it appears that there might have been two or more evolutions of the early pushrod Alloy Indy block, but in saying that the castings of block in your pics have a more 'european' appearance. If you disassembled that block did it have provision for wills & O-rings at deck surface, or just flat for conventional gaskets.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by Guido36

Having searched this site and the web in general there seems to be little information on the XHP 260 -

All the known that I can document XHP-260 and HP260 engine blocks are cast iron; I have documented one XHP-260 casting and two different ones used in HP260s. The various versions of cylinder heads on XHP-260 and HP260 engines in Cobras have been cast iron also. From my Weber/Cobra database the cross ram system was designed and built by Shelby's team. Legend says it was too complicated to make and difficult to tune compared to the benefits. The prototype side draft and three prototype down draft systems are included in evaluations that I have documented in some way or another. The side draft design was abandoned. CSX2043 used #3 of 3 down draft prototype systems., I owned that 3 of 3 system for a few years but now it resides in an early Cobra again.

(2023 update. Ford wrote that fifteen (15) each XHP-260 engines were handmade.) At the time Falcon rally cars were being raced by Holman-Moody. The highest serial number that I have found recorded in period is fourteen (14). Based on published information serial numbers 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, and 14 were installed in very early Cobras.


XHP-260 Engine #4 survives to this day in unrestored form. It was carefully dismantled, extensively photographed, analyzed dimensionally (things like camshaft details), reassembled and shown in public on a display stand a few years ago by Bob Mannel. The engine block was originally stamped serial number 2 but was changed to number 4. Many of the internal small parts are engineering specials and some appear to have been made one at a time on a lathe or mill. All the handmade prototype parts carried individual serial numbers in that engine, not for the engine assembly but for the parts themselves. It is an interesting engine. The effort to document what was in engine four was a three way arrangement among the owner of the engine, me, and Bob Mannel who did all the work. Whenever Bob updates his engine book this engine is to be included.


There isn’t much in comparison between a XHP-260 with very many engineering special parts and an almost production HP260. The information around indicates that Ford was planning to offer HP260 engines in Falcons. The European rally cars used HP260s and Dearborn Steel Tube outfitted a Falcon for testing as a production ready test car but the release of the HP289 engines ended all of that apparently.


Specific details of what was in engine 4 are way too long to include in a web post, certainly the dozens of close up pictures wouldn’t fit.

Dan

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by Guido36

engine XHP 260-5 and was this engine fitted to a Cobra

Engine XHP-260-5 was fitted into a very early Cobra, one so early that it still used an AC Greyhound radiator. A picture of the engine bay day one has been featured in Hot Rod Magazine. When first installed it was like the other XHP-260s from Ford with a Ford 4100 carburetor. There are few pictures of an odd Holley in use on CSX2002 and another early Cobra but I believe Shelby’s works installed them. They appear to be prototypes also. I have hunted very hard for years trying to document those odd Holley assemblies. The main assemblies, body to bowls, are like several 1957-58 models Thunberbirds used. The throttle plate sub assemblies are like a 1960s Ford production car.

Dan

PS. In later years, especially 1964 through 1969, Shelby’s works used quite a few non-production Holley carburetors. Some were modified specials by the Shelby works but most were contracted to the Holley custom shop. If Holley did the work their identification number will be stamped on the main body.

[Guido36]

On the Ultimatecarpage.com specifications for CSX2000 Wouter Melissen lists the Ford XHP-260 engine as having "alloy block and head". In the only engine compartment shot on their site the XHP-260-5 engine and intake are painted black. When I was at the Shelby Museum in Las Vegas they politely but firmly declined to open the hood of CSX2000 despite my asking very nicely! So I have never seen the engine in person. The 1967 Shelby T10 King Cobra is also listed on the same website as having an "aluminium" block and heads of 351.9 ci or 5766cc.

The following segment from the ultimatecarpage.com description of the Ford GT40 "AM lightweight"

"Bailey's chassis design closely followed that of the Lola Mk VI GT with the initially used aluminium replaced by steel for additional durability. Broadley was not very happy with the added weight, but Ford felt it was necessary to cope with the heavy and powerful engines proposed for the new car. The all aluminium, dry-sump Ford Fairlane engine was also carried over from the Lola. In good American tradition, this V8 featured a central camshaft with push-rod operated overhead valves. It was intended to be used as a stop-gap until a four-cam version would become available. In later years one of these Indy-racing derived engines was indeed fitted, but the racing and production cars all featured OHV engines. The Fairlane engine displaced just under 4.2 litres and produced a decent 350 bhp. It was mated to a Colotti four speed gearbox." Now I do not necessarily accept all of this as completely accurate but what I am trying to find out is whether there were in fact any XHP-260 aluminum engines or blocks - Cobra or Fairlane and which cars had the aluminum 289 fitted. I have heard for many years that some of the GT40s had aluminum blocks.

On the Bill Lewis website it also mentions developing an aluminum 260 block which was used as the basis of the 1963 Ford pushrod engine for Indy. This is very specific and detailed about the development of the aluminum 260 and worth a read. Indy Engines -- The Ford V-8 Engine Workshop

So my questions remain - did Ford build aluminum XHP-260 blocks and what cars were they installed in, Cobras and/or other cars such as racing Fairlanes? Similarly, which cars had aluminum 289 blocks?

[Dan Case]

PM sent.

[DMXF]

Guido36, first of all whatever Wouter Melissen states on that site is tainted by his use of the word "alloy". While some people associate it with meaning aluminum, look up the definition, alloy simply means there is a mixture of different constituents in the metal. Steels are made in different alloys.

The first GT40(s) in '64 were fitted with the all aluminum Indy engine, which is different in virtually every aspect from the engines installed in Cobras. When Shelby was given the responsibility for fielding the GT40's, as part of his changes he pulled those engines and installed his cast iron Cobra units.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by DMXF

Guido36, first of all whatever Wouter Melissen states on that site is tainted by his use of the word "alloy". While some people associate it with meaning aluminum, look up the definition, alloy simply means there is a mixture of different constituents in the metal. Steels are made in different alloys.

The first GT40(s) in '64 were fitted with the all aluminum Indy engine, which is different in virtually every aspect from the engines installed in Cobras. When Shelby was given the responsibility for fielding the GT40's, as part of his changes he pulled those engines and installed his cast iron Cobra units.

The word "alloy" could simply be referring to the high nickel content used in the 427 SO blocks and may have been experimented with in the 260 blocks, but it's still an iron block.
my 2 c

[Guido36]

In English speaking countries outside the U.S., in my experience the term 'alloy' is used interchangeably with 'aluminium'. If an engine is said to be 'alloy' it implies 'aluminium' or aluminum in American parlance. So I would think that Wouter Melissen did indeed mean aluminum when he used the term 'alloy'. You will find 'alloy wheels' in the U.K. is as commonly used as 'mags' in the U.S., which are seldom magnesium but used to describe any lightweight alloy wheel.... Confused? Me too!

[Guido36]

The 1964 Sunbeam Lister Tiger Le Mans coupes of which three were built are also listed as having XHP-260 engines with 'alloy' block and heads.

[DMXF]

Originally Posted by Guido36

In English speaking countries outside the U.S., in my experience the term 'alloy' is used interchangeably with 'aluminium'

Sounds more like it depends on whether they had any engineering education or not

[strictlypersonl]

Originally Posted by DMXF

Sounds more like it depends on whether they had any engineering education or not

On the gt40s.com forum, the Brits use "ally" frequently, but I've never seen "alloy" for aluminum.

[xb-60]

Here in Australia, what you call 'mag' wheels, we call alloy wheels