A.C. Cars Ltd. looking for info

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by RodKnock

The OP can do whatever he or she wants.

But the fact remains that it retains an AC ID plate stamped with an invalid COB number, in various spots, and it's not an AC product, as Ned Scudder, the SAAC Cobra Registrar stated.

If the OP didn't remove it, then the car could be misrepresented in the future and that's fraud. The OP is on record that he/she will remove it and thus not misrepresent it. Smart decision by the OP. So that's a win!

No, he stated it was not one of the 60's versions and beyond that, he did not know.

So every replica at a car show with one of those fake tags you can buy with whatever number on it can now be misrepresented as a real 60's Cobra? What a joke! Heck, for all you know, somebody was attempting to make a very real looking reproduction. Something many on this site try to do all the time. I guess everybody that builds a replica now can be accused of potentially trying to commit fraud by your skewed viewpoint. Especially if they put one of those fake tags on their car!

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by joyridin'

No, he stated it was not one of the 60's versions and beyond that, he did not know.

So every replica at a car show with one of those fake tags you can buy with whatever number on it can now be misrepresented as a real 60's Cobra? What a joke! Heck, for all you know, somebody was attempting to make a very real looking reproduction. Something many on this site try to do all the time. I guess everybody that builds a replica now can be accused of potentially trying to commit fraud by your skewed viewpoint. Especially if they put one of those fake tags on their car!

Joyridin, you raise an interesting point. Let's look at the motivation behind the use of a Shelby American or AC Cars ID tag on a car that has nothing on it manufactured by either company. Who installed the tag and why? Surely they knew what the car was, so why go to the trouble of adding a tag that claims the car is something that it is not? To fool themselves? Not likely. To fool someone else? Now you are getting closer. Whether it is just to make a joke of the car's real heritage or because "everyone else does it, so I did, too" really doesn't matter. It approaches misrepresentation, which is only a few steps away from fraud.

Personally, I have never understood the rationale behind using an ID tag from another manufacturer on one's car. Is the owner not proud of the work that has gone into it? If he doesn't want the casual observer to know it is a ABC instead of a XYZ, why did he buy it in the first place? I would love to hear a rational response to the simple question "Why does your car have an ID tag on it saying it was manufactured by Shelby American, Los Angeles, CA, when it clearly was not?"

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by joyridin'

No, he stated it was not one of the 60's versions and beyond that, he did not know.

So every replica at a car show with one of those fake tags you can buy with whatever number on it can now be misrepresented as a real 60's Cobra? What a joke! Heck, for all you know, somebody was attempting to make a very real looking reproduction. Something many on this site try to do all the time. I guess everybody that builds a replica now can be accused of potentially trying to commit fraud by your skewed viewpoint. Especially if they put one of those fake tags on their car!

First, Rick Muck (Mark IV) who sold AC MKIV's when they were new and I'd consider an expert on them said its repro plate on page 1. And the "666" is simple nonsense.

Second, if an owner installs an AC ID plate on a replica and stamps VIN #'s on hinges, shock towers, etc. and adds the repo ID plate, then that's taking it to a different level IMO. And yes I personally find it offensive and object to that.

Third, in this day and age, you can come across a vexatious litigant as a potential buyer and whether or not you have misrepresented the car, you could be sued anyway and that will cost you a lot of money in legal fees defending yourself. And then, the person may win the case. I've read about worse cases.

[cobrakiwi]

I would be very proud of the workmanship in this frame and body, looks to be very well made.

Are we any closer to who may have actually built the frame and body?


After all this was the op's question

[LMH]

Here's a couple more photo's to stir the pot!

Underside of the OP's left front fender showing body seams:


Top side of a Kirkham fender showing body seams:


Seams look to match to me. Further more, most aluminum shapers seam the fenders down the top center. Kirkham seams theirs off center towards the outside of the car.



Here's a photo of the pedal box. Note the open bottom to the box. Original cars don't have a removable panel on the bottom, rather they are solid across the bottom. It was Kirkhams idea to produce their pedal box with a removable panel.


However, It was also Kirkhams idea to bolt their pedal box in on each end of the mounting tube. The OP's car is welded in. ???


Kirkham Pedal box:


Thoughts?
Larry

[RodKnock]

I don't think there's any secret recipe to manufacture an alloy body, say like the Kirkham's version of it. Kirkham has posted several videos entitled "Kirkham Aluminum University" on YouTube and they also have 72 pages posted online on making the aluminum body:

http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/book_aoe/aoe_18.pdf

But the OP's Cobra has no Kirkham VIN# and at a very minimum that radiator opening looks wrong, "camera angle" or not.

[cobrakiwi]

Wow, Great pictures Larry, as you point out the seam lines are one of the keys.

Patterns are used to replicate each piece time and time again, if you were to build multiples of something (Kirkhams) you would definitely replicate steps, hence patterns, templates, software
Quality control and cost!

The removable pedal box was introduced (Kirkham, 427) somewhere between car 45 and I am guessing 100.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by RodKnock

First, Rick Muck (Mark IV) who sold AC MKIV's when they were new and I'd consider an expert on them said its repro plate on page 1. And the "666" is simple nonsense.

Second, if an owner installs an AC ID plate on a replica and stamps VIN #'s on hinges, shock towers, etc. and adds the repo ID plate, then that's taking it to a different level IMO. And yes I personally find it offensive and object to that.

Third, in this day and age, you can come across a vexatious litigant as a potential buyer and whether or not you have misrepresented the car, you could be sued anyway and that will cost you a lot of money in legal fees defending yourself. And then, the person may win the case. I've read about worse cases.

If the number is simply nonsense, then why bother to remove it at all? Everybody obviously knows it is a fake. No misrepresentation here. The number is known to everyone as not being real.

So let's take a hypothetical. Shelby is tired of buying aluminum cars from Kirkham, so they take a Kirkham body to an outside supplier to see if they can reproduce the body. The outside supplier does a great job, but Shelby doesn't have the money to pay for it or it is just too much work, so the supplier is sitting there with this body and frame. He unloads it to somebody who states they want to assemble the car. Voila! Now we have a car with certain markings sitting in somebody's garage! Very possible scenario. Does anybody own up to it? Heck no!

Nothing being misrepresented in this scenario at all.

Actually, what I find offensive is people making ignorant accusations on a forum about deception like you are doing and telling the owner he/she must remove items on their car because you feel it is offensive. I'll tell you what to do since you do not own the car. If you don't like it, then stop posting on this thread and leave. You know...like changing the channel on the TV when you don't like the program.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Joyridin, you raise an interesting point. Let's look at the motivation behind the use of a Shelby American or AC Cars ID tag on a car that has nothing on it manufactured by either company. Who installed the tag and why? Surely they knew what the car was, so why go to the trouble of adding a tag that claims the car is something that it is not? To fool themselves? Not likely. To fool someone else? Now you are getting closer. Whether it is just to make a joke of the car's real heritage or because "everyone else does it, so I did, too" really doesn't matter. It approaches misrepresentation, which is only a few steps away from fraud.

Personally, I have never understood the rationale behind using an ID tag from another manufacturer on one's car. Is the owner not proud of the work that has gone into it? If he doesn't want the casual observer to know it is a ABC instead of a XYZ, why did he buy it in the first place? I would love to hear a rational response to the simple question "Why does your car have an ID tag on it saying it was manufactured by Shelby American, Los Angeles, CA, when it clearly was not?"

Ned, considering 95% (or higher) of the population couldn't tell a 60's Cobra from a 90's replica, my guess is it makes the owner feel like a big shot when he is not. I have been at car shows and listened to Cobra owners tell people their car is real. Whether they were saying it as a joke or not I do not know, but the car had a small block, Subie seats, and about everything else wrong you could imagine....but it had the tag! Adding a few stamping with numbers that are not real isn't doing anything more than trying to build a more accurate replica than the guy before him.

[LMH]

Posted especially for Rodknocks fat nose!
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by joyridin'

If the number is simply nonsense, then why bother to remove it at all? Everybody obviously knows it is a fake. No misrepresentation here. The number is known to everyone as not being real.

So let's take a hypothetical. Shelby is tired of buying aluminum cars from Kirkham, so they take a Kirkham body to an outside supplier to see if they can reproduce the body. The outside supplier does a great job, but Shelby doesn't have the money to pay for it or it is just too much work, so the supplier is sitting there with this body and frame. He unloads it to somebody who states they want to assemble the car. Voila! Now we have a car with certain markings sitting in somebody's garage! Very possible scenario. Does anybody own up to it? Heck no!

Nothing being misrepresented in this scenario at all.

Actually, what I find offensive is people making ignorant accusations on a forum about deception like you are doing and telling the owner he/she must remove items on their car because you feel it is offensive. I'll tell you what to do since you do not own the car. If you don't like it, then stop posting on this thread and leave. You know...like changing the channel on the TV when you don't like the program.

The number "666" is nonsense to me, so I'd remove it. Why remove it at all? Because the car COULD be misrepresented in the future, by any future owner.

And I'm not accusing anyone of deception or misrepresentation. But the car COULD be misrepresented in the future.

Your hypothetical is great, but it's just a hypothetical. We could make up lots of stories to embellish the history of this Cobra. Maybe start with a racing history at Lemans and Sebring, the team number on the car when it was raced was "666" and then the car was disassembled and stored in a barn. That sounds much better.

Obviously, Ned, the actual real Cobra Registrar feels the ID plates and numbers should be removed too, along with all the Cobra replicas out there, because a misrepresentation COULD take place in any number of ways by any future seller. And the seller could be sued, for just riveting a ID plate and stamping numbers in various places.

However, every replica owner can choose to make a more accurate replica with ID plates and stamped ID's, but it's their dime and they can roll the dice by unsuspecting, but vexatious attorney who wants to sue them.

And if you don't like what I have to say about replicas wearing fake AC #'s with fake ID plates then you also can change the channel.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by LMH

Posted especially for Rodknocks fat nose!
Larry

The nose on the actual Kirkham above still looks thin or thinner to me. The nose on the OP's car looks fat or fatter.

As I mentioned earlier, the OP should send pics to Kirkham and have them take a look. But the car doesn't have a Kirkham serial number anywhere. Also, Kirkham is aware of this thread, from what I was told. From the beginning.

[LMH]

I don't think Kirkham would want to confirm that this is one of their cars with the COB designation being stamped into it. That's my opinion of course.
The body seams are like fingerprints. Kirkham's steel forming jigs dictate the seam location and it's different than other coach makers.
However, I can not explain the lack of chassis number but we may never know why.
Larry

[LMH]

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

Wow, Great pictures Larry, as you point out the seam lines are one of the keys.

Patterns are used to replicate each piece time and time again, if you were to build multiples of something (Kirkhams) you would definitely replicate steps, hence patterns, templates, software
Quality control and cost!

The removable pedal box was introduced (Kirkham, 427) somewhere between car 45 and I am guessing 100.

Interesting! So the first Kirkham didn't have a bolt-in pedal box?
Larry

[cobrakiwi]

[quote=RodKnock;1406585]The number "666" is nonsense to me, so I'd remove it. Why remove it at all? Because the car COULD be misrepresented in the future, by any future owner.

And I'm not accusing anyone of deception or misrepresentation. But the car COULD be misrepresented in the future.




Ok, so I get the part that 666 is nonsense to you got it, check

I get the part if the car was yours you would remove it got it, check

But what I don't get is why anybody would misrepresent the 0 or 666 as a fake number?

Fake number of what?

We all know the tag is fake, and from the experts 0666 was never an AC number

Would you be misrepresenting a fake of a fake then?

[YerDugliness]

I can see the problem...what if the car were purchased by someone who had no knowledge of the replica industry? That person might well do some (a little) research, discover that COX and COB were legitimate chassis designations used by AC...and believing he possessed an original (innocently, not knowing the 0666 number was not ever assigned to an original) attempt to sell it in the future, mistakenly identifying it as an original AC product.

There COULD be a misrepresentation in that case...but "fraud" to me implies knowledge that the item is not as represented. If those future owners were not astute enough to know the history we do know, misrepresentations could daisy-chain down the line of multiple future owners.

I know, I know...buyer beware...but due diligence would be very different for an uninformed purchaser than it would be for a more knowledgable buyer.

I have no doubt the current owner has no intention of misrepresenting the authenticity...but down the line there could easily be an opportunity for a fraudulent transaction, unbeknownst to the new owner.

Removing those numbers seems a good way to avoid all that.

Cheers!

Dugly

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by YerDugliness

I can see the problem...what if the car were purchased by someone who had no knowledge of the replica industry? That person might well do some (a little) research, discover that COX and COB were legitimate chassis designations used by AC...and believing he possessed an original (innocently, not knowing the 0666 number was not ever assigned to an original) attempt to sell it in the future, mistakenly identifying it as an original AC product.

There COULD be a misrepresentation in that case...but "fraud" to me implies knowledge that the item is not as represented. If those future owners were not astute enough to know the history we do know, misrepresentations could daisy-chain down the line of multiple future owners.

I know, I know...buyer beware...but due diligence would be very different for an uninformed purchaser than it would be for a more knowledgable buyer.

I have no doubt the current owner has no intention of misrepresenting the authenticity...but down the line there could easily be an opportunity for a fraudulent transaction, unbeknownst to the new owner.

Removing those numbers seems a good way to avoid all that.

Cheers!

Dugly

Yes, thank you, Dugly. I can't seem to explain it properly.

The only thing I'd add is that, as an example, someone who knows the legal system and enjoys making money by suing others, whether there's a legit beef or not. If they're actually caught by the courts after a number of lawsuits without merit, then these folks will become "vexatious litigants" and become "outlaws" to the court system(s). They become vexatious litigants, by filing lawsuits against anyone and everyone to extract settlements from unsuspecting sellers of goods.

Forget the dumb looks at car shows, if I'm selling this car, or ANY replica with fake ID plates and/or VIN stampings, then I'd want to remove the tags and VIN stampings. But if I sell the car with the ID plates and VIN stampings, which I NEVER would, then I'm having the buyer sign an acknowledgement of the fake ID's and a release from any future claims. I don't want some a$$hole suing me for something that seems ridiculous to the members of this forum. And having to pay thousands of dollars defending myself. But that's just me. Others may do otherwise.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by LMH

I don't think Kirkham would want to confirm that this is one of their cars with the COB designation being stamped into it. That's my opinion of course.
The body seams are like fingerprints. Kirkham's steel forming jigs dictate the seam location and it's different than other coach makers.
However, I can not explain the lack of chassis number but we may never know why.
Larry

Why would Kirkham not respond to a question about one of their Kirkhams? Or a Cobra that's not a Kirkham? What's the downside. They could confirm this car is one of theirs quickly. Kirkhams are all replicas. They're not an original AC/Shelby Cobra. And we already know from Ned that it's not an AC/Shelby and we also know that the OP's car has no Kirkham VIN numbers ANYWHERE.

And the only number on the car is "666." So, it's the devil's car.

The OP's Cobra has no Kirkham markings and I don't remember anything in the Registry about cars leaving the Kirkham factory without a Kirkham marking/VIN. And that doesn't sound like Kirkham to me anyway, shipping an alloy body that can't be tracked.

There are many folks out there that are quite talented, certainly not me that's for sure. And there's no secret on how to scratch build an alloy body, since the recipe is online or I'm sure anyone can tour the Kirkham factory and learn directly from Kirkham.

Notwithstanding, based upon your postings, I will not eliminate the possibility that the OP's car could be a Kirkham. I just think the probability is extremely low.

[cobrakiwi]

Originally Posted by YerDugliness

I can see the problem...what if the car were purchased by someone who had no knowledge of the replica industry? That person might well do some (a little) research, discover that COX and COB were legitimate chassis designations used by AC...and believing he possessed an original (innocently, not knowing the 0666 number was not ever assigned to an original) attempt to sell it in the future, mistakenly identifying it as an original AC product.

There COULD be a misrepresentation in that case...but "fraud" to me implies knowledge that the item is not as represented. If those future owners were not astute enough to know the history we do know, misrepresentations could daisy-chain down the line of multiple future owners.

I know, I know...buyer beware...but due diligence would be very different for an uninformed purchaser than it would be for a more knowledgable buyer.

I have no doubt the current owner has no intention of misrepresenting the authenticity...but down the line there could easily be an opportunity for a fraudulent transaction, unbeknownst to the new owner.

Removing those numbers seems a good way to avoid all that.

Cheers!

Dugly

How about just removing the COB?

[LMH]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Why would Kirkham not respond to a question about one of their Kirkhams? Or a Cobra that's not a Kirkham? What's the downside. They could confirm this car is one of theirs quickly. Kirkhams are all replicas. They're not an original AC/Shelby Cobra. And we already know from Ned that it's not an AC/Shelby and we also know that the OP's car has no Kirkham VIN numbers ANYWHERE.

And the only number on the car is "666." So, it's the devil's car.

The OP's Cobra has no Kirkham markings and I don't remember anything in the Registry about cars leaving the Kirkham factory without a Kirkham marking/VIN. And that doesn't sound like Kirkham to me anyway, shipping an alloy body that can't be tracked.

There are many folks out there that are quite talented, certainly not me that's for sure. And there's no secret on how to scratch build an alloy body, since the recipe is online or I'm sure anyone can tour the Kirkham factory and learn directly from Kirkham.

Notwithstanding, based upon your postings, I will not eliminate the possibility that the OP's car could be a Kirkham. I just think the probability is extremely low.

My opinion on Kirkham not wanting to get involved or comment with this car is just mine and only my opinion. It was obviously not stamped with the COB number by them but rather by someone after it left their control, if it is indeed one of their cars. As I said, my thoughts only. Maybe they will comment. Don't know. Have you contacted them and asked for their thoughts on it?
Larry