A.C. Cars Ltd. looking for info

[YerDugliness]

The Kirkhams are handbuilt cars, for sure, even if the bodies are handbuilt in Poland. As such, it seems to me that there could be inconsistencies and minor differences between each one. Could that account for the small differences in the location of the fender seams?

Just a thought...

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

I don't disagree with your statement. However, David dealt with Polish companies called Geppard and ZKA before buying the Polish factory.

The registry mentioned that Geppard also made a Morgan-like sports car. I don't think David was buying the Morgan replicas, so Geppard/ZKA already had a way of selling non-Cobra replicas to people. Is it possible that Geppard or ZKA could have sold Cobra bodies and frames to people other than the Kirkhams? I don't know, that is Dugly's theory, not mine.

Yes, it is! Perhaps a bit of sequential speculation:

1.) The story on the Kirkham website clearly says Kirkham went to Poland to see the factory...since that same factory is still producing for Kirkham, it's reasonable to believe Kirkham liked what he saw.

2.) Kirkham takes the body bucks for their product to Poland and sets them up, perhaps trains some of the workers, and comes home to concentrate on things here. Essentially, at that point he is just purchasing labor from the Polish company...it makes sense that the raw materials would have been sourced from Europe...so the factory now has not only the body bucks but also the materials to do as Kirkham wants. The only problem could be that Kirkham failed to take whatever measures would be necessary to ensure exclusive delivery of bodies/frames to him as a singular purchaser.

3.) Realizing that there were no prohibitions against selling to other than just Kirkham, the Polish factory takes advantage of the situation and produces "bandit" bodies/frames for a few private parties. Kirkham finds out about it and proceeds to protect their proprietary position by buying the factory and putting in place personnel and prohibitions against selling to anyone else. Problem solved?

Perhaps...makes sense to me, but IF (and "they" say "IF" is the biggest word in the English language!!) it happened that way, what about those early bodies/frames that were built and sold "under the table", so to speak? They could certainly not have been sold with any form of MSO...explaining that issue, too.

I looked at the photos of those Kirkham body bucks briefly...I always envision body bucks being wooden "forms", so to speak, but those look very much like pipe. Could the "bulky" margins of the fishmouth be an early effort to form that opening, perhaps so unsuccesful that the body might have been sold as a "factory second"...all of this unbeknownst to the Kirkhams?

I know, guys...it's ALL speculation, but it just seems reasonable to me and unless the Kirkhams chime in and clear up this case speculation is all we have.

Cheers!!!

Dugly

[RodKnock]

As I asked earlier, how does the non-MSO non-VIN unicorn get from Poland to the US and then Canada and acquire a repro AC VIN plate and various "666" stampings in the process?

[LMH]

I'm sure there are small differences. The body panels are fit by hand, trimming here and there to make each fit perfectly and then gas welded together. The forming buck though puts the seam in approximately the same place on each panel. I'm sure Kirkham does it for consistency with each body. They are really a beautiful product and much more consistent than an original.

Aluminum being stretched and hammered over Kirkham's forming buck:


Larry

[RodKnock]

And as the Registry states on page 851: "11-character number required by the D.O.T." If the Department of Transportation requires a VIN, how could this Unicorn make it into the United States?

And if my fictitious dock worker added the repro AC ID plate with "COB 0666", then that doesn't meet the DOT standard either.

Also, why would the Kirkhams sign a contract for Cobras to be built, buy all the equipment, materials, purchase labor, digitize an original Cobra, spend 2 years developing the 1st Kirkham and then supervise the project with I'm sure an eye on their inventory control only to let a unicorn be built and sold by the Polish workers/company? Doesn't make sense to me.

[YerDugliness]

Me, either, but stranger things have happened in the world of business!

Cheers!!

Dugly

[joyridin']

We used to work on all types of grey market cars. Ship them to Puerto Rico, then to the US bypassing a lot of US laws. Many of the loopholes have been closed on drivable cars, but who knows on a body and frame.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by YerDugliness

The Kirkhams are handbuilt cars, for sure, even if the bodies are handbuilt in Poland. As such, it seems to me that there could be inconsistencies and minor differences between each one. Could that account for the small differences in the location of the fender seams?

Just a thought...

Larry's thought here and I agree with him, is that the underside of the OP's fender appears to be completely consistent with a Kirkham aluminum body based upon where Kirkham put the seams.

Further what we are saying is that other manufacturers of aluminum bodies place their seams more consistent to one another. Top dead center of fender.

So in that sense, it would be harder to differentiate an "AC", North Devon Metal Craft, Brooklands/AC Heritage or Panel Craft body from one another because they all apparently put their fender seams top dead center and attach the fender flare as a separate piece. That is 5 manufacturers that have their body seams different than Kirkham.

So Kirkham seams seem to be placed in their own unique way that is different the 5 manufacturers I mentioned above and apparently makes it trivial to look under a front fender of a Kirkham and you know for certain that it is not NOT an AC, NOT a North Devon Metal Craft, NOT a Brooklands and NOT a Panel Craft body.

Now I have not seen a picture of the seams on a Kimmins body or a McCluskey body so I can't comment on where they put the seams. So could another manufacturer put their body seems in the same place as a Kirkham body. Maybe? Is that likely? I doubt it.

I did point out in an earlier post that I heard Kirkham has apparently changed their tooling over time to reduce the number of panels to construct their cars so that would mean the seam locations on early Kirkhams could be different than later Kirkhams. However the picture of the Kirkham body that Larry posted is consistent with the OP's body seams.

To summarize:
- At least 5 different manufacturers make bodies that are consistent with one another.
- Kirkham seams are unique and different that the other 5 manufactures mentioned.
- Kirkham makes bodies that are consistent with one another (although apparently their tooling has changed over time)
- The OP's body seams are consistent with Larry's picture showing Kirkham body seams.

[1ntCobra]

In terms of Panel Craft bodies with top dead center seams, well I thought this video would be appropriate, but then I realized that this is not actually one of their Cobra bodies...



Still Panel Craft might put their seams top dead center on a Cobra fender, but this is not proof.

[olddog]

Well I, for one, am very uncomfortable with wild speculation on something that might possibly could of happened based on no facts, when it could negatively impact on the reputation of a great company.

I work with a guy who is a 911 truther, believes we never went to the moon, the earth is flat, commercial planes are spraying chem trails, and every other wild conspiracy on the net. I recognize some of his thought processes in this thread.

Well maybe that was unfair, but since anyone who has certain views are not welcome in this thread, what the hell.....

So let me try to add something to be helpful. Plenty or replicas of various makes have been wrecked over the years. It is possible that this is a Frankenstein Cobra. The body may be salvaged parts from two, three, perhaps four different wrecks. Perhaps the Big Nose is off of manufacture "A" and has been welded to manufacture "B" front fenders. Possibly the midsection and rear came from other manufactures or a mixture of "A" and "B". Obviously the frame could be other parts that have been welded together, same as the body.

This would explain why there are no real numbers anywhere. They just happened, or perhaps on purpose, used parts that didn't have any numbers stamped in. I'm sure Doctor Frankenstein would have never used a body part that had a tattoo, as someone may have recognized dad's arm on the monster.

Edit:
It just dawned on me. If you use the VIN# out of a salvage, you can never hide the salvage title and that will kill about 40% of the value. You would not want to have anything that would trace to a salved car, so you would make certain that it was untraceable.

[adv-ent]

olddog, I am sorry but I can't agree with your theory and it has nothing to do with the future value, this chassis has never had anything mounted to it, the body seems look original. I am no Cobra builder but there is no way this chassis has been tampered with in any way, you could never hide 100% of the repairs and not one suspension hole has ever had a bolt it? Other than some obvious scratches on the powder coat from storage and moving it around the chassis is in as built condition. I had an owner of a CSX car come over and check thing out, we both agree this is a new/old never finished built chassis where ever it came from.
BK

[olddog]

I fully admit on my part this was total wild speculation base on no facts.

However you are assuming that only the manufacturer could have powder coated the frame. I can take any frame cut pieces out and weld new ones in. Then strip it and have it powder coated again. It will look like it came from the factory that way.

For the record, I have no negative opinion of you. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise. I assume that whatever has been done to this car happened before you took possession, and you have no knowledge of its history. I agree you asked because you want to learn more about the car.

However if someone before you did do something that was not legal, it could impact you. For instance, in the US you can be charged with receiving stolen property, even if you had no clue, if they can establish that a reasonable person should have suspected something was not right. Hence my warning to listen to Bill and not assume he was just being a dick. "begin Edit" I am not in any way trying to imply the car was stolen or anything illegal was done. I am merely pointing out that when things do not add up be careful! Bad things can happen to unsuspecting innocent people. "end Edit"

Someone did question the grinding the paint off of the COB number. Why is there rust in the impression, as the paint should still be in the impression, if ground off with a flat paper or wheel. This could easily be explained, but something about this raised suspicion.

[RodKnock]

So to sum it up, the working theory is the car was made by the Polish company, likely without the knowledge of Kirkham, since there are concepts in business called "inventory control" and "exclusivity agreements", thus without an MSO and VIN # and sold and somehow made it into the US illegally, via Puerto Rico, violating Federal laws, and ultimately sold to the OP and imported into Canada.

And it's not like someone with the skills, tools and knowledge to scratch build an alloy body here in the US, since there's videos of how to do it online for everyone to see, isn't a better theory?

[twobjshelbys]

Does anyone really know what time it is?
Does anyone really care?

[olddog]

I am merely pointing out that when certain facts point to manufacture "A" and other facts exclude manufacture "A," perhaps the parts have been mixed. A salvage would be one logical possibility. I'm certain many others exist.

We are talking about a car that could be worth low six figures. Someone would certainly have to do very high quality work to pull that off.

I just don't think the Johny Cash one piece at a time song is the only explanation.

Johnny Cash - One Piece At A Time Lyrics | MetroLyrics

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by olddog

I am merely pointing out that when certain facts point to manufacture "A" and other facts exclude manufacture "A," perhaps the parts have been mixed. A salvage would be one logical possibility. I'm certain many others exist.

We are talking about a car that could be worth low six figures. Someone would certainly have to do very high quality work to pull that off.

I just don't think the Johny Cash one piece at a time song is the only explanation.

Johnny Cash - One Piece At A Time Lyrics | MetroLyrics

I am not implying the following item has anything to do with the OPs car. It is just commenting on the above post.

We know from the SAAC registry that Kimmins has purchased at least one chassis less aluminum body from Kirkham. The serial number is KMPS005. It is a leaf spring car. The only logical explanation I can have for Kimmins who builds aluminum bodies to buy a Kirkham chassis is to put a Kimmins body on it.

So if you put together manufacturer "A" and manufacturer "B". It does not have to imply salvage nor does it have to imply Frankenstein. I imagine someone thought it would be worthwhile to buy a Kimmins bodied Kirkham chassis and had Kimmins them build such a car when it would have been easier and most likely cheaper to just buy a Kirkham.

And like I said, I am not implying this has anything to do with the OPs car. I do not believe the OPs car has a Kimmins body.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Does anyone really know what time it is?
Does anyone really care?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBuUUBrC9eQ[/ame]

[twobjshelbys]

Saw them play at the small theater at the mgm. What a show. Like the old night clubs. Just got tickets to the new Roger waters show.

[Blue66]

Where is Evan ?? Someone find him !! He will know !!!

[1ntCobra]

Why don't you pm onxnrider? He might know how to contact Evan.