A.C. Cars Ltd. looking for info

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Bill,

I thought he said he bought it from a previous owner, not a manufacturer, which would explain why he does not know who the manufacturer is.

And that further he said he had it brought into Canada as parts, so presumably he does not need an MCO. I imagine that he needed some sort of receipt for the parts and still has that. He mentions a local builder or manufacturer who helped clear the parts into Canada. I suppose it might be interesting to know how the local builder helped, but maybe that is irrelevant other than it got the frame and body into Canada as parts with some sort of paperwork to prove his ownership of the parts.

It seems that he is just interested in knowing who made frame and body for his own interest and not as some requirement for registering the car.

Ken

Hey Ken,

Since I can't see the original post, and nobody quoted it before it disappeared, I can't confirm that. I can only go with what I can see (Larry's pictures appear to have been taken down from his hosting source, that or we exceeded their bandwidth with the host) and read. OP came in, asked for assistance, you and I gave it, along with our opinions, and he came back and felt they were a personal attack on him, which of course, you and I know, was incorrect. Just look at his response to what you wrote in post #54, and again after I posted (#72) calling the car a Kimmons and adding my concerns for the seller, but not calling him out on anything, but he will continue to take everything personally, when he should take a step back and reread everything with a clearer head. Having hands on experience with working on the body/chassis/repair and such you notice certain aspects, things I saw point to Kimmins, I'll stand by that unless proven beyond a shadow of a doubt differently. I'm just here to assist where I can, while others want to fall back to the old, worn out adage of "you don't own XXX, so you don't know anything about them", you and I know that ownership is not required, but the enthusiasm is. I've got no dog in this hunt, and apologize to the others who believe that I do/did.

I'm off to get coffee (you can never have too much coffee).


Bill S.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Hey Ken,

Since I can't see the original post, and nobody quoted it before it disappeared, I can't confirm that. I can only go with what I can see (Larry's pictures appear to have been taken down from his hosting source, that or we exceeded their bandwidth with the host) and read. OP came in, asked for assistance, you and I gave it, along with our opinions, and he came back and felt they were a personal attack on him, which of course, you and I know, was incorrect. Just look at his response to what you wrote in post #54, and again after I posted (#72) calling the car a Kimmons and adding my concerns for the seller, but not calling him out on anything, but he will continue to take everything personally, when he should take a step back and reread everything with a clearer head. Having hands on experience with working on the body/chassis/repair and such you notice certain aspects, things I saw point to Kimmins, I'll stand by that unless proven beyond a shadow of a doubt differently. I'm just here to assist where I can, while others want to fall back to the old, worn out adage of "you don't own XXX, so you don't know anything about them", you and I know that ownership is not required, but the enthusiasm is. I've got no dog in this hunt, and apologize to the others who believe that I do/did.

I'm off to get coffee (you can never have too much coffee).


Bill S.

Be sure to get some toast to go with your coffee.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by DanEC

No dog in this battle but intriguing that Kirkham made this apparent departure from original cars (jack rod hole height). I wonder what the reason was for it?

In Utah, Kirkham assembles their cars on a rotisserie attached at the quick jack bolts. I posted a picture of that earlier in the thread. Maybe their location for the bolts balances the car better on the rotisserie?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

In Utah, Kirkham assembles their cars on a rotisserie attached at the quick jack bolts. I posted a picture of that earlier in the thread. Maybe their location for the bolts balances the car better on the rotisserie?

Or, they reconfigured from a different original (IE: later chassis) car than their original

[LMH]

I use Photobucket for hosting my photo's and it looks like their site is down. I can't open the site. Hoping my pics come back when the site is back online.
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

I'm off to get coffee (you can never have too much coffee).
Bill S.

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Be sure to get some toast to go with your coffee.

One person advocating drinking too much coffee and the other advocating eating toast. Hmmm.

Nothing like an overly acidic and unproductive diet.

[NewYorkGuy]

MrMustang
Just curious- did you call out "fraud" on Shelby and whoever he worked with in the 1980s when he sold new chassis as "original rusty chassis" with CSX vin numbers?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

MrMustang
Just curious- did you call out "fraud" on Shelby and whoever he worked with in the 1980s when he sold new chassis as "original rusty chassis" with CSX vin numbers?

Yes, I specifically remember him tweeting about it.

Yes, I know NYG, it's always about me.

[YerDugliness]

If you're going to call Shelby a fraud, why start so recently? Why not go all the way back to the very beginning, when he is reputed to have lied to both Ford and to A/C, reportedly telling them both that he had received guarantees from the other company for "advances" of equipment...when he had not...and based on those assurances each of the companies agreed to supply him what he wanted.

Now...THAT's fraud if you ask me.

But, hey...I'm just a guy who likes what he did with what he got...regardless of how he got it.

Cheers!

Dugly

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

One person advocating drinking too much coffee and the other advocating eating toast. Hmmm.

Nothing like an overly acidic and unproductive diet.

Now I hope you aren't going to try to push your Taco Bell diet on me. I have never eaten there and I was not planning on starting to.

[feadam]

Have you called the Kirkhams to ask if they would look at pictures and tell you if it's one of there cars

[olddog]

I have been hanging around on this website about a decade now, and it has helped me tremendously over the years. I have meet a few of the members at the London Cobra show. Most I have not met in person. Bill I never met in person. That said I have watched him help identify many cars over the years. I'm certain he is not a perfect being, but you can generally take what he tells you to the bank.

What I have learned over the years is that anything that is of great value attracts low life scum sucking creatures that will attempt to alter something of low value to appear like it is the genuine high value item. Then they try to sell it to an unsuspecting person, effectively stealing the difference in value from the unsuspecting person. Typically called white collar crime, I personally despise these loathsome sub-human creatures. I have gotten the impression that Bill doesn't particularly love these people either.

An original Cobra is a high value item, and you guessed it, today there are more claimed original Cobra's than were made. No different than rare art or rare coins.

What is so hard to understand that Bill does not wish to explain little known details on the open internet that could easily be used by unscrupulous people to rip someone off. That is common sense and it has nothing to do with the original post on this thread nor was it intended to reflect toward the OP. It is just a fact. Are you so ignorant of the world that you cannot understand this?

Now the OP may be the most honest person in the world, and he may have been perfectly truthful. However, someone at some time, has tried to alter this car. Therefore this car absolutely has been part of a fraud, of some type, by someone in the past. The OP may be innocent of all of this.

If the OP is totally innocent, then he better listen carefully to Bill, because he may very well be playing with dynamite.

[Phx Mike]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

In the SAAC registry it mentions 3 locations for Kirkham. Shock tower - full number. Door hinge - last 2 or 3 digits. Foot box tag - full number.

Of course the foot box tag is easily removed and replaced.

Is there a 2 or 3 digit number on the door hinge? If you get me that number I can see what it says in the SAAC registry when I get back home tomorrow. The registry may say if it that number is associated with a roller or just a body and frame.

Fwiw I checked and my Kirkham has the full number stamped on the upper left (drivers side) shock tower also. So - passenger side footbox data plate, drivers side shock tower, and (last 3 digits) on both door hinges.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by olddog

I have been hanging around on this website about a decade now, and it has helped me tremendously over the years. I have meet a few of the members at the London Cobra show. Most I have not met in person. Bill I never met in person. That said I have watched him help identify many cars over the years. I'm certain he is not a perfect being, but you can generally take what he tells you to the bank.

What I have learned over the years is that anything that is of great value attracts low life scum sucking creatures that will attempt to alter something of low value to appear like it is the genuine high value item. Then they try to sell it to an unsuspecting person, effectively stealing the difference in value from the unsuspecting person. Typically called white collar crime, I personally despise these loathsome sub-human creatures. I have gotten the impression that Bill doesn't particularly love these people either.

An original Cobra is a high value item, and you guessed it, today there are more claimed original Cobra's than were made. No different than rare art or rare coins.

What is so hard to understand that Bill does not wish to explain little known details on the open internet that could easily be used by unscrupulous people to rip someone off. That is common sense and it has nothing to do with the original post on this thread nor was it intended to reflect toward the OP. It is just a fact. Are you so ignorant of the world that you cannot understand this?

Now the OP may be the most honest person in the world, and he may have been perfectly truthful. However, someone at some time, has tried to alter this car. Therefore this car absolutely has been part of a fraud, of some type, by someone in the past. The OP may be innocent of all of this.

If the OP is totally innocent, then he better listen carefully to Bill, because he may very well be playing with dynamite.

OldDog, your check is in the mail


In all seriousness, I have not called out the OP as doing anything wrong with the car, I responded to his question, and of course, in my bluntness, expanded my thoughts, my concerns, and my observations, after all, this is a discussion forum. Again, without malice, but in afterthought, maybe being a little more cynical than I could have been. Take what I posted at face value or not, that is the personal choice of everyone that reads it.

Bill S

[cobrakiwi]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

After days of looking over the OP's pictures (thanks Larry), my conclusion is as follows:

Kimmin's (sp) body and frame


Not ever legally imported to Canada, but in Canada just the same, rumors of one that was brought over the border supposedly in a truck filled with snow blowers back in the mid to late 90's have been quietly floating around, but have never been substantiated, could this be that chassis?

Regardless, COB 0666 or COB 666 is an invalid/false/fake/illegally stamped chassis number and by someone doing so, risks the confiscation and disposal of said chassis by TransCanada and/or it's judicial arm.

OP's major problem is that there is no MSO/MCO, therefore he will not be able to legally explain it's lineage or prove it's actual age to TransCanada. If there is a MSO/MCO, then OP has a little more disclosure/explaining to do, past his "amnesia" as to how he came upon the chassis/body years ago, and just now was able to secure it in his garage again. No offense, but I can remember 95% of the 300+ cars that have come through my personal collection over the years, and I'm the guy with ADHD.


Bill S.

Right! This is not calling anyone out then?

[cobrakiwi]

[quote=olddog;1406239]


What is so hard to understand that Bill does not wish to explain little known details on the open internet that could easily be used by unscrupulous people to rip someone off. That is common sense and it has nothing to do with the original post on this thread nor was it intended to reflect toward the OP. It is just a fact. Are you so ignorant of the world that you cannot understand this?

So we now protect replica to replica details as to not rip people off,
Please.

[adv-ent]

Mr olddog and Mrmustang, I truly appreciate your time and others on this thread but what I still don't understand is why there is so much talk of fraud and deceit and now playing with dynamite? I have never tried to pass this off as anything rare or try to say it is something that it is not, if I was trying to defraud as you put it I wouldn't have put it on this site in the first place. I don't understand why it makes a difference if you think I am honest or not, you can't possibly know either way so what ever you think of me personally doesn't matter to this thread. I started this thread because I know nothing of aluminum cars no mater who makes them, my own car is a fiberglass replica, although it is a very high end built car I still have nothing to compare.
Fraud, dynamite deceit? I have no idea what you want from me and what I can do to make you believe all I was looking for is help on identifying the manufacturer so very early on in this thread it was established that it couldn't be a AC car so what is it then, that's what we are looking for. It doesn't really matter why or who put such an obvious fake COB number does it because everybody seems to know there is no such thing so lets move on. There are absolutely on other stamps on the car other than what has already been mentioned.
Thanks again for all the members help on this thread.
BK

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

Right! This is not calling anyone out then?

Originally Posted by adv-ent

Mr olddog and Mrmustang, I truly appreciate your time and others on this thread but what I still don't understand is why there is so much talk of fraud and deceit and now playing with dynamite? I have never tried to pass this off as anything rare or try to say it is something that it is not, if I was trying to defraud as you put it I wouldn't have put it on this site in the first place. I don't understand why it makes a difference if you think I am honest or not, you can't possibly know either way so what ever you think of me personally doesn't matter to this thread. I started this thread because I know nothing of aluminum cars no mater who makes them, my own car is a fiberglass replica, although it is a very high end built car I still have nothing to compare.
Fraud, dynamite deceit? I have no idea what you want from me and what I can do to make you believe all I was looking for is help on identifying the manufacturer so very early on in this thread it was established that it couldn't be a AC car so what is it then, that's what we are looking for. It doesn't really matter why or who put such an obvious fake COB number does it because everybody seems to know there is no such thing so lets move on. There are absolutely on other stamps on the car other than what has already been mentioned.
Thanks again for all the members help on this thread.
BK

How you interpret Bill's words is your interpretation, it's certainly not mine. Bill is trying to help and he calls them as he sees them. He's blunt.

Two facts are known.

1. The car is stamped with a COB number. And it's not a COB. Describe it as you will, but as long as it retains that invalid COB # it can be passed off as a fraud, maybe not with the OP, but potentially some other owner in the future. There are plenty of examples of cars with invalid COB for CSX numbers in the Registry, two owners claiming the same COB or CSX number, etc.

So as long as this Cobra retains that COB number it represents the potential for fraud. That's the bottom line.

2. No one here has been able to determine the manufacturer of origin. IMO, the workmanship is well below that of a Kirkham/CSX and the body of the Kirkham/CSX and the OP's car have obvious differences.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

How you interpret Bill's words is your interpretation, it's certainly not mine. Bill is trying to help and he calls them as he sees them. He's blunt.

Two facts are known.

1. The car is stamped with a COB number. And it's not a COB. Describe it as you will, but as long as it retains that invalid COB # it can be passed off as a fraud, maybe not with the OP, but potentially some other owner in the future. There are plenty of examples of cars with invalid COB for CSX numbers in the Registry, two owners claiming the same COB or CSX number, etc.

So as long as this Cobra retains that COB number it represents the potential for fraud. That's the bottom line.

2. No one here has been able to determine the manufacturer of origin. IMO, the workmanship is well below that of a Kirkham/CSX and the body of the Kirkham/CSX and the OP's car have obvious differences.

Can you elaborate on the obvious differences to a KMS or SA car?
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by LMH

Can you elaborate on the obvious differences to a KMS or SA car?
Larry

You mean besides the fact that there are no Kirkham serial numbers stamped anywhere on the car? And I mentioned a few differences in an earlier post.

And when you say KMS or SA car, they're for the most part the same, since Kirkham makes the bodies for SA. And actually produces almost the entire car for the 50th anniversary CSX's.