A.C. Cars Ltd. looking for info

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by LMH

Have you contacted them and asked for their thoughts on it?
Larry

I haven't contacted them, but someone has sent them a link to this thread.

If I were the OP, then I would have been on their doorstep asking them if it were one their cars already. But again, knowing the Kirkham story, knowing how they operate and not wanting someone or anyone to do something nefarious to the Shelby/Kirkham legacy, and the fact that every one of their cars is in the Registry, I'd be surprised that the OP's car is indeed a Kirkham. I'm sure the Kirkham's have stamped their number in their cars in various "super secret" places.

But as I said, you make an effective case for it being a Kirkham.

[LMH]

I wonder if someone could have bought a pallet car from them, even with body panels and assembled it at home? Grasping at straws though.
I had hoped that there was secret stampings somewhere that the OP could check. That may put it all to rest.
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by LMH

I wonder if someone could have bought a pallet car from them, even with body panels and assembled it at home? Grasping at straws though.
I had hoped that there was secret stampings somewhere that the OP could check. That may put it all to rest.
Larry

Maybe you have the Registry in front of you, but from what I recall, the top guys around the country like Stewart Hall, Dave Wagner, Bill Andrews, etc. bought early bodies & chassis from Kirkham and built beautiful cars, and may still do for clients, but they all had Kirkham numbers.

[LMH]

True. As far as I know, all of those were bought as rollers though Dave did one leaf spring with all original AC suspension. I disassembled the suspension he used but I think as you point out, they all had KMS numbers.
Im at work right now, so can't look up anything. Damn pesky job always in my way!
Larry

[adv-ent]

OP here, please if anybody knows of some super secret place where I can look for stamped numbers I would like to know. I have looked everywhere and anywhere I have been asked to look. I am open to any suggestions.
As far as me contacting Kirkham directly I thought posting on this site would allow everybody including the Kirkham's to have an input in this search.
The only number I have found is on the trunk clasp and obviously the tower top and I even invited a hot rod builder friend of mine to come and check the area's I have been asked to look previously in case I missed some signs of tampering. He agreed with me that all the paint looks original and nothing has been touched up. I am no car builder so I thought maybe I missed something, I don't know what else to say.
BK

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by adv-ent

As far as me contacting Kirkham directly I thought posting on this site would allow everybody including the Kirkham's to have an input in this search.

Well, you know what happens when you ASSUME...

Contact Details

Kirkham Motorsports
2575 West 1680 North
Provo, Utah, 84601

Phone: 801-377-8224
Fax: 801-377-8254
Email: sales@kirkhammotorsports.com

[Dominik]

I would not remove that stamped number. Then it looks like you tampered with it. Or does it already?

I would maintain it and, if anything, have it modified or extended by somebody authorized to, or whatever a legal body allow or request you to do. (Like a 17-digit VIN, which is law since 1981)

[NewYorkGuy]

here's what you should do. Get it appraised at a high-end Cobra specialist (you know their names). Get a document that says THIS CAR WOULD COST $200k++ to recreate today.

Use the appraisal as leverage when you sell

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by YerDugliness

I had heard that at one time when they were first starting to produce the bodies and frames for Kirkham anyone could buy products directly from the factory. I'm sure the Kirkhams stopped that once they bought the land and the factory.

What are the chances this could have been purchased before the Kirkhams bought the property and factory?

Cheers!


Dugly

Going back to this thought, if it was possible to order a body and frame directly from the Polish factory before Kirkham purchased the factory, I suppose the original buyer could have told the factory to stamp whatever he/she wanted for a serial number on the frame.

[1ntCobra]

Here is another idea. You can buy plans for a Cobra frame. I know a scratch builder who built his own frame after he bought an aluminum body. I don't recall if he was ever sure of the original source of the body. Maybe MrMustang would remember that detail.

Anyway suppose you were a scratch builder planning on making your own frame but without the tools and skill to make your own body. Might you not consider calling up Kirkham and see if you can order just the body which you can attach to your scratch built frame?

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by LMH

Here's a couple more photo's to stir the pot!

Underside of the OP's left front fender showing body seams:


Top side of a Kirkham fender showing body seams:


Seams look to match to me. Further more, most aluminum shapers seam the fenders down the top center. Kirkham seams theirs off center towards the outside of the car.



Here's a photo of the pedal box. Note the open bottom to the box. Original cars don't have a removable panel on the bottom, rather they are solid across the bottom. It was Kirkhams idea to produce their pedal box with a removable panel.


However, It was also Kirkhams idea to bolt their pedal box in on each end of the mounting tube. The OP's car is welded in. ???


Kirkham Pedal box:


Thoughts?
Larry

I seam to recall (or is it seem to recall), that Kirkham has reduced the number of aluminum pieces over time needed to make up their bodies. I may have heard that on this site or perhaps at a Kirkham open house. If that is the case there may be 2 or more variations of Kirkham body seams to potentially match against.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Going back to this thought, if it was possible to order a body and frame directly from the Polish factory before Kirkham purchased the factory, I suppose the original buyer could have told the factory to stamp whatever he/she wanted for a serial number on the frame.

Before Kirkham purchased the Polish factory they were making airplanes. The Kirkham story in brief:

"The idea for Kirkham Motorsports started in 1994 with the mission to build the finest replicas in the world. It all began when David Kirkham was restoring the 427 Shelby Cobra CSX3104. At the same time, a relative bought, sold and imported to the US a Polish fighter jet (in that order). The already sold jet had bounced inside the shipping container and the nose was severely dented. David was called to fix the plane, and during inspection of the damage, realized the construction was strikingly similar to CSX3104.

Inspired, David found the manufacturer in Poland and sent a fax off to Poland. The simple note read, "Can you guys build an aluminum bodied car?" Within 12 hours the reply: "No problem."

A week later, David was on a plane to Warsaw with an English-Polish dictionary, a toy model of a Cobra, and a dream. He spent a week scouting the factory and exploring their manufacturing abilities. He saw a silent factory with idle machines. The enormous factory had produced aircraft for over 60 years. During the tour, David knew this was the place he wanted to build cars. After meeting with three generations of skilled craftsmen eager to make these cars, he forged some agreements and left filled with high expectations and enthusiasm. Since then, Kirkham Motorsports has become one of the leading manufacturers in the component car industry. At the inception of the company, KM focused on building the most accurate replicas in the business. Kirkham Motorsports still offers incredibly accurate replicas, but technology and manufacturing techniques have evolved since the 1960’s. KM is an engineering focused company and has pushed the performance envelope without forgetting originality."

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by MOTORHEAD

My Kirkham (sn 28) does have the suitcase bump. 28 is also stamped on the door hinge.

Motörhead,

I am curious since you have a low serial number, is your shock tower missing the threaded holes that I assume are for mounting a horn like on the OP's frame?

Do you know if early Kirkhams typically had the suit case bump?

Ken

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Before Kirkham purchased the Polish factory they were making airplanes. The Kirkham story in brief:

"The idea for Kirkham Motorsports started in 1994 with the mission to build the finest replicas in the world. It all began when David Kirkham was restoring the 427 Shelby Cobra CSX3104. At the same time, a relative bought, sold and imported to the US a Polish fighter jet (in that order). The already sold jet had bounced inside the shipping container and the nose was severely dented. David was called to fix the plane, and during inspection of the damage, realized the construction was strikingly similar to CSX3104.

Inspired, David found the manufacturer in Poland and sent a fax off to Poland. The simple note read, "Can you guys build an aluminum bodied car?" Within 12 hours the reply: "No problem."

A week later, David was on a plane to Warsaw with an English-Polish dictionary, a toy model of a Cobra, and a dream. He spent a week scouting the factory and exploring their manufacturing abilities. He saw a silent factory with idle machines. The enormous factory had produced aircraft for over 60 years. During the tour, David knew this was the place he wanted to build cars. After meeting with three generations of skilled craftsmen eager to make these cars, he forged some agreements and left filled with high expectations and enthusiasm. Since then, Kirkham Motorsports has become one of the leading manufacturers in the component car industry. At the inception of the company, KM focused on building the most accurate replicas in the business. Kirkham Motorsports still offers incredibly accurate replicas, but technology and manufacturing techniques have evolved since the 1960’s. KM is an engineering focused company and has pushed the performance envelope without forgetting originality."

Sure, but you COMPLETELY missed Dugly's point. His theory is that during the timeframe between Kirkham getting the first car and buying the Polish factory, he heard that the factory might have sold cars to people other than the Kirkhams.

If you read your registry further you may see something about Kirkham eventually bought the factory after some troubles with Poland that I cannot recall at this moment.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Sure, but you COMPLETELY missed Dugly's point. His theory is that during the timeframe between Kirkham getting the first car and buying the Polish factory, he heard that the factory might have sold cars to people other than the Kirkhams.

If you read your registry further you may see something about Kirkham eventually bought the factory after some troubles with Poland that I cannot recall at this moment.

No, I didn't miss the point, but I'm also not going to say that it could NEVER happen either. A conspiracy theory is a conspiracy theory.

In that brief snippet that I posted directly from the Kirkham website, "he (David Kirkham) forged some agreements" with the Polish factory to build Cobras. So, is Dugly trying to say that Kirkham, a smart business person, didn't have exclusive rights to that Polish factory for every single Cobra made and that the Polish factory may have sold "knockoff" Kirkham Cobras to other buyers, who then shipped them from Poland to North America and one may have ended up in British Columbia?

Now I may have missed it in the Registry and I don't have it in front of me, but I don't remember that story being stated. I could be wrong, but I can't believe that Kirkham after investing a pot load of money in equipment and materials overseas wouldn't have the exclusive rights to all Cobras coming from the former jet factory.

However, maybe the President of Poland decided he wanted a Cobra and in an "off the books" transaction with the Polish workers, had them build a Cobra that Kirkham never knew about, and with "666" stamped in several places, which landed in British Columbia as the OP's car. I guess that scenario could have happened.

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

So, is Dugly trying to say that Kirkham, a smart business person, didn't have exclusive rights to that Polish factory for every single Cobra made and that the Polish factory may have sold "knockoff" Kirkham Cobras to other buyers, who then shipped them from Poland to North America and one may have ended up in British Columbia?

Exactly…what I have heard is that BEFORE the plant was purchased by the Kirkhams it was producing frames and bodies and that anyone who had the cash could arrange for a frame/body combination to be shipped to them.

If the Kirkhams found this out, it may have been the impetus for them to buy the factory and therefore have the exclusive rights to determine not only what would be built in that factory, but also to whom it could be sold. That would make sense to me if my business were to build the finest replicas available and I wanted to maintain that highly respected position…but until they were the owners I believe that the Polish company (who had been making airplanes before the Kirkhams became a customer of their services) would have believed that they had the right to sell their products to whomever they found willing to fork over the money. Only the Kirkham brothers know if they were astute enough to include an exclusivity clause in their contract with the Polish company…if, indeed, there was a contract at all. In many of those middle-European countries business is still conducted under much less formal agreements than a written contract…and not only in Europe, here in the US there are many who engage in business dealings without anything more than a handshake. One of my neighbors across the street has been building VERY expensive structures (homes, mostly) for the past 30 years and he says he's never signed any kind of a contract.

BTW---the "story" that appeared in the post above is EXACTLY the story I read regarding the manner in which Kirkham became a CUSTOMER of that factory…until they bought it. If I had to guess I'd say I probably read it on Kirkham's website…I have frequented their website as I am a great admirer of their products!

Sorry…I'm not a "conspiracy theorist" and don't think there was any conspiracy, just believe that the Polish factory could have (and DID) sell to customers other than the Kirkhams until they were bought out. No conspiracy….

This may be a replica for which we will never know the origins. I'd almost bet a paycheck the Kirkhams could clear up the mystery…but I doubt that they will. If I'm right about them not having an exclusivity arrangement with the factory before they purchased it, they would almost assuredly not want for that to be common knowledge (as is their right!!!)

Their silence has been deafening

Cheers!

Dugly

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

No, I didn't miss the point, but I'm also not going to say that it could NEVER happen either. A conspiracy theory is a conspiracy theory.

In that brief snippet that I posted directly from the Kirkham website, "he (David Kirkham) forged some agreements" with the Polish factory to build Cobras. So, is Dugly trying to say that Kirkham, a smart business person, didn't have exclusive rights to that Polish factory for every single Cobra made and that the Polish factory may have sold "knockoff" Kirkham Cobras to other buyers, who then shipped them from Poland to North America and one may have ended up in British Columbia?

Now I may have missed it in the Registry and I don't have it in front of me, but I don't remember that story being stated. I could be wrong, but I can't believe that Kirkham after investing a pot load of money in equipment and materials overseas wouldn't have the exclusive rights to all Cobras coming from the former jet factory.

However, maybe the President of Poland decided he wanted a Cobra and in an "off the books" transaction with the Polish workers, had them build a Cobra that Kirkham never knew about, and with "666" stamped in several places, which landed in British Columbia as the OP's car. I guess that scenario could have happened.

See that is the kind of response that indicates that you did not COMPLETELY miss the point! Why didn't you say that in the first place?

The registry does not mention anything along the lines of Dugly's theory, but it does say that Kirkham originally dealt with a company called Geppard that failed and was taken over by a company called ZKA that was having problems too.

Of course Shelby claimed to own the 427 Cobra tooling instead of AC, but Shelby never bought AC. But the Kirkhams eventually bought out the Polish factory.

[LMH]

As far as I know, (which I'm not a Kirkham expert by any means!) David Kirkham set up the body/frame works in Poland to make his Cobra body. There was no existing coachworks for a Cobra replica prior to David setting it up.
Now if you wanted a MIG fighter knock-off, they could help you with that!
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

See that is the kind of response that indicates that you did not COMPLETELY miss the point! Why didn't you say that in the first place?

The registry does not mention anything along the lines of Dugly's theory, but it does say that Kirkham originally dealt with a company called Geppard that failed and was taken over by a company called ZKA that was having problems too.

Of course Shelby claimed to own the 427 Cobra tooling instead of AC, but Shelby never bought AC. But the Kirkhams eventually bought out the Polish factory.

You're right, I really didn't think about a theory or that the Polish factory sold Cobras that weren't Kirkhams and that landed here in North America. Of course, there's zero evidence to prove that theory and that also would make the OP's Cobra a Unicorn and not a Kirkham.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by LMH

As far as I know, (which I'm not a Kirkham expert by any means!) David Kirkham set up the body/frame works in Poland to make his Cobra body. There was no existing coachworks for a Cobra replica prior to David setting it up.
Now if you wanted a MIG fighter knock-off, they could help you with that!
Larry

If we're floating theories here, then I don't think the entire body was actually made in Poland. I think the doors, hood and trunk, among other parts, were made in Utah.