A.C. Cars Ltd. looking for info

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by LMH

As far as I know, (which I'm not a Kirkham expert by any means!) David Kirkham set up the body/frame works in Poland to make his Cobra body. There was no existing coachworks for a Cobra replica prior to David setting it up.
Now if you wanted a MIG fighter knock-off, they could help you with that!
Larry

I don't disagree with your statement. However, David dealt with Polish companies called Geppard and ZKA before buying the Polish factory.

The registry mentioned that Geppard also made a Morgan-like sports car. I don't think David was buying the Morgan replicas, so Geppard/ZKA already had a way of selling non-Cobra replicas to people. Is it possible that Geppard or ZKA could have sold Cobra bodies and frames to people other than the Kirkhams? I don't know, that is Dugly's theory, not mine.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by YerDugliness

Sorry…I'm not a "conspiracy theorist" and don't think there was any conspiracy, just believe that the Polish factory could have (and DID) sell to customers other than the Kirkhams until they were bought out. No conspiracy….
Dugly

OK, not a conspiracy, but you believe the Polish factory sold Cobras to other buyers, not named Kirkham. Do you have any evidence? Who did you hear that from?

And yes, the Kirkham's could clear it up.

[RodKnock]

BTW, good discussion. I don't believe a word, but good discussion.

[cobrakiwi]

Special order?
Even with that Dam silly number, just off enough to not ruffle to many feathers?

Needed for race car duties, etc?? just a theory


Still need to work out the fat nose thing,

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You're right, I really didn't think about a theory or that the Polish factory sold Cobras that weren't Kirkhams and that landed here in North America. Of course, there's zero evidence to prove that theory and that also would make the OP's Cobra a Unicorn and not a Kirkham.

Well there you go. Unicorns have big noses and I have been sort of agreeing with your non-Kirkham nose on the OP's car.

However the more I look at Larry's seam pictures, the more I am thinking that this is a Kirkham body on a scratch builder's frame. Perhaps the scratch builder may have tweaked the nose somehow when attaching the body to the car. That would also go along with Bill thinking that the body is attached differently than how Kirkham would attach it to the frame.

So I think I will agree with you that this is a unicorn and not a Kirkham, but I think it does have a Kirkham body, just not a Kirkham frame.

[cobrakiwi]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

After days of looking over the OP's pictures (thanks Larry), my conclusion is as follows:

Kimmin's (sp) body and frame


Not ever legally imported to Canada, but in Canada just the same, rumors of one that was brought over the border supposedly in a truck filled with snow blowers back in the mid to late 90's have been quietly floating around, but have never been substantiated, could this be that chassis?

Regardless, COB 0666 or COB 666 is an invalid/false/fake/illegally stamped chassis number and by someone doing so, risks the confiscation and disposal of said chassis by TransCanada and/or it's judicial arm.

OP's major problem is that there is no MSO/MCO, therefore he will not be able to legally explain it's lineage or prove it's actual age to TransCanada. If there is a MSO/MCO, then OP has a little more disclosure/explaining to do, past his "amnesia" as to how he came upon the chassis/body years ago, and just now was able to secure it in his garage again. No offense, but I can remember 95% of the 300+ cars that have come through my personal collection over the years, and I'm the guy with ADHD.


Bill S.

Not exactly what Bill was thinking

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

Not exactly what Bill was thinking

Yes, we know Bill has a lot of thoughts about this, but the relevant thought lost somewhere on some page of this thread was that Bill thought this was a Kimmins based on some details of how the body was attached to the frame. A detail that he was not willing to disclose here.

So if Bill thinks the body is attached differently to the frame than a Kirkham body is attached to a Kirkham frame; and Larry thinks this is a Kirkham body based on the seams; and I think it is not a Kirkham frame based on the shock tower being different; and we can explain away the big nose due to improper handling; and we enjoy RodKnock's rainbow unicorn picture; and we find Dugly's story lacking credible sources; maybe we can all agree with my goof ball theory that it is a Kirkham body on a scratch builders frame.

[cobrakiwi]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Yes, we know Bill has a lot of thoughts about this, but the relevant thought lost somewhere on some page of this thread was that Bill thought this was a Kimmins based on some details of how the body was attached to the frame. A detail that he was not willing to disclose here.

So if Bill thinks the body is attached differently to the frame than a Kirkham body is attached to a Kirkham frame; and Larry thinks this is a Kirkham body based on the seams; and I think it is not a Kirkham frame based on the shock tower being different; and we can explain away the big nose due to improper handling; and we enjoy RodKnock's rainbow unicorn picture; and we find Dugly's story lacking credible sources; maybe we can all agree with my goof ball theory that it is a Kirkham body on a scratch builders frame.

I'm not ready to agree with the Kirkham body on a scratch built frame just yet

The only two things I question at this time regarding the frame is, the COB stamp of course, and the lack of horn mounting holes.

[1ntCobra]

Here is Larry's picture of a Kirkham seam which is NOT on the top of the fender on what I believe is called an "unfiled" Kirkham body:



Now here is an "AC" produced CSX1000:



Here is a North Devon Metalcraft produced body (which could be a later CSX1000):




And Brooklands - AC Heritage:



It seems that the rest of these might have their sanded down weld seams at the top of their fenders.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Yes, we know Bill has a lot of thoughts about this, but the relevant thought lost somewhere on some page of this thread was that Bill thought this was a Kimmins based on some details of how the body was attached to the frame. A detail that he was not willing to disclose here.

So if Bill thinks the body is attached differently to the frame than a Kirkham body is attached to a Kirkham frame; and Larry thinks this is a Kirkham body based on the seams; and I think it is not a Kirkham frame based on the shock tower being different; and we can explain away the big nose due to improper handling; and we enjoy RodKnock's rainbow unicorn picture; and we find Dugly's story lacking credible sources; maybe we can all agree with my goof ball theory that it is a Kirkham body on a scratch builders frame.

We can explain the fat nose due to "improper handling"? What, the person who built the body F'ed it up, if they were trying to follow the 72 page online Kirkham manual? I can buy that theory.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

We can explain the fat nose due to "improper handling"? What, the person who built the body F'ed it up, if they were trying to follow the 72 page online Kirkham manual? I can buy that theory.

Sometimes with "improper handling" you can end up with your nose bent out of shape and a double chin.



And I meant the person who built the "frame" may have tweaked the nose a little bit trying to force fit a Kirkham body onto his home built frame.

[cobrakiwi]

Great pictures
That CSX 1000 body is gorgeous!

[RodKnock]

Now that we're writing novels, how was this unicorn imported into the US?

[cobrakiwi]

Snuck in one of Kirkham's containers, hidden in the corner!

[LMH]

Different coach builders do their bodies differently which is what I was referring to as their "fingerprints", so to speak. That said, most shapers seam the body down the top of the fender length wise. Kirkham's fender is paneled, includes the flare and is seamed off center towards the outside of the car. Most shapers make the flare separately and weld it on the fender, then grind/file the seam. Kirkham shapes the flare into each panel and welds the panels together to for the body. Most shapers use a whole or half buck or plug that replicates the body, scaled for the skin thickness. Hi Tech did that with both fiberglass and aluminum bodies. I've seen the 3190 plug many times used on their 427 body. Kirkham uses steel body plugs that replicate parts of the body and dictate the seams where the body is welded together. Their seams are very much the same (if not exactly the same) for each car.
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

Snuck in one of Kirkham's containers, hidden in the corner!

Well, let's spin this yarn a little more. The OP's Cobra was stuck at the docks without an MSO and VIN and one of the dock workers was ordered to get a repro AC ID plate, stamp it with "666" and then stamp the chassis and door hinges with "666".

[LMH]

Kind of neat video showing some of the metal shaping and panel bucks at Kirkham in Poland:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1dqV2qiAdo[/ame]
Larry

[DanEC]

It doesn't appear the seams are quite as far off of the fender top on these bodies - or is it just me?

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by DanEC

It doesn't appear the seams are quite as far off of the fender top on these bodies - or is it just me?

Larry's point is that other manufacturers put the seam top dead center of the fender while Kirkham puts their seam a few inches to the outside of that.

Also that others seem to attach the fender flares as a single piece to the side of the body, while the Kirkham flares are shaped into the panel already and have a seam running across the top of the flare to the outside edge.

[LMH]

The seams on the Kirkham and the OP's car look to line up to me.
Larry