Roger Upton - RU Car Crafters - Up to his old tricks

[jayhawk261]

This will be a bit long winded, and I apologize for that, but this post has been 2 full years in the making.

Roger Upton of RU Car Crafters wants to be in business again. Be VERY wary of his business practices.

I have known Roger for 13 years, and I've even spent time on this board talking up him and his product as his reputation had become less than positive. Summer of 2014 at the Mid America Ford Meet in Tulsa, OK, he makes noise about wanting to get back into building cars again. I said great, I'm happy to be your first customer as I've always wanted an RUCC car!

October of 2014, we work out the details and agree to a scope of work and a price. Then I begin to wait. Wait, and wait, and wait, and wait. I knew the plan was for it to take some additional time because he had some setbacks and he was also working on another car (not one of his). I waited patiently for 2 years through all of the "I've been sick for a week", "I am going on vacation this week", "I have to do my taxes for several days" excuses as time rolls on. I'm ok with all of this because in the end, I'm going to get the RUCC Cobra I want.

Fast forward 2 years. October, 2016 Roger finally tells me the car is ready to deliver. I have been getting pictures all along, and the pictures that day look like the complete car that I want and that we agreed on. There are a couple things that look outstanding from our scope of work, so I ask about them in a text. The specific item here is that our scope of work included a "Complete Hole Cut Out Package". In the photos, all of the holes are cut out except the hood scoop. I bring that up, and he tells me that is not part of the cut out package.

Short story, we go back and forth in text. We get on the phone wherein he proceeds to yell at me almost incoherently telling me that his website clearly states that is not part of the hole cut out package. His website stopped working in 2014 not long after we agreed to the project, but somehow I'm supposed to have memorized this.

I try to calm him down, and all I really want at this time is a reason that it's not included. Maybe there is a valid reason for that, I don't know. Then he starts yelling at me about how he used old pricing when he quoted me the car and everything costs more now and that the custom work for the passenger roll bar cost way more than than he estimated. He then said that I'm not holding up my end of the bargain (not sure how that's possible, my end was to give money and I did so every time he asked without hesitation), and he's sending my money back. Then he hangs up.

That last exchange happened on Friday October 21st. He texts me periodically through that day telling me he mailed the check and what not. On Monday the 24th, I initiate a text hoping the situation has calmed down and maybe to find a way to get through the issue. I stated in that text that if we need to discuss additional funds for the custom work, I was ok with that. I wanted my car. Again, we got on the phone, and I get accused of both using our friendship to force him to use old pricing and forcing him to use the old pricing on the website. Not sure how I could do both, but neither actually happened. We have a clear documented correspondence of me asking for a price so I can see if it fits my budget.

During this call, he sticks to his stance and tells me that because I asked him about the hood scoop cutout, I don't care about RU Car Crafters. For that, he doesn't care to do business with me. I am failing to see where he cares about me, his paying client. I waited for 2 years and rearranged many things in my life preparing for the arrival of this car not the least of which was selling my pristine 32,000 mile 1985 Mustang GT this past summer. Had I known he was going to flake on me, I'd still have that car to enjoy.

The long and the short of it is that he didn't price the car right, and was looking for any excuse to not sell it to me which I apparently gave to him by having the audacity to ask a question about something I was paying thousands of dollars of my hard earned money for.

He is now going to try to sell it to someone else for an amount of money that would make it probably the most expensive kit on the market. If anyone looks at it and wants to buy it, please beware that you will likely get no support in the rest of the items you'll need to complete the car.

Roger's work is high quality, but there is a reason he basically went out of business all those years ago. His ability to conduct business has not changed, and I feel foolish for having stood behind him and for trusting him.

Sorry for the rant, but I had to get it out. Thanks to anyone who made it this far!

[DanEC]

Did you get your money back?

A shame - I looked at his kit info pretty closely about 8 or 9 years ago when I was looking at various manufacturers.

Good luck finding another car.

[jayhawk261]

Thanks Dan. Yes, he did send my money back. I held on to it for a week as I was talking to my attorney about trying to compel him to complete his end of the agreement through "Specific Performance" statutes. Eventually decided to let it go. I waited for the check to clear before posting here as I have no idea if me saying something negative about him would prompt him to stop payment.

I'm a little burned out on the idea of a Cobra right now. I'm going to take that money and buy something for a track day car for a few years and then maybe start the process again with a more reputable builder.

[patrickt]

You know, I have to ask, with all of the high-quality Cobra companies out there, (KMS, ERA, SPF, CSX, FFR quickly come to mind), how did you get yourself in to this mess?

[Frank Messina]

Originally Posted by patrickt

You know, I have to ask, with all of the high-quality Cobra companies out there, (KMS, ERA, SPF, CSX, FFR quickly come to mind), how did you get yourself in to this mess?

Exactly!
And not to dig too deeply into the minutiae of this, but was this supposed to be a finished car, a body or something in between? I ask because I'm puzzled about the dealbreaker meltdown over "no scoop cutout".

And to just pick one off Patrick's mention list, North Race Cars in Lee's Summit, MO ( 24 miles from you) could have built you a FFR Mk IV exactly to your spec 4 times over in the time you wasted on this drama. Very puzzling.

Frank

[jayhawk261]

I understand the question for sure. First and foremost, Roger's chassis is designed and built primarily with track in mind. It is a full backbone chassis with shear panels that make it rigid. From a structural standpoint (and I'm a structural engineer), nothing on the market that I'm aware of matches it.

The car is a high quality car. Now several that you list below are out of my price range like KMS, SPF, CSX. I am not a fan of the FFR , and I'm really not familiar with the ERA cars except I know their chassis doesn't have the stiffness of the RU car.

Secondly, After a 13 year friendship, I did not expect what happened to happen. With that relationship, and knowing what I wanted from a car and what I wanted to do with it, I ordered the one I wanted. Not all cars are created equal.

Yes, in the end, I let my personal wants and a friendship cloud my judgement. The car (chassis/Body/IRS) I want is actually built and sitting there. I just can't have it.

Originally Posted by patrickt

You know, I have to ask, with all of the high-quality Cobra companies out there, (KMS, ERA, SPF, CSX, FFR quickly come to mind), how did you get yourself in to this mess?

[jayhawk261]

I had ordered a chassis, body, and IRS setup. I was going to build the car over the next 2-3 years and have the track day car of my dreams.

FFR doesn't enter the equation for me personally, and I plan to build the car myself.

Originally Posted by Frank Messina

Exactly!
And not to dig too deeply into the minutiae of this, but was this supposed to be a finished car, a body or something in between? I ask because I'm puzzled about the dealbreaker meltdown over "no scoop cutout".

And to just pick one off Patrick's mention list, North Race Cars in Lee's Summit, MO ( 24 miles from you) could have built you a FFR Mk IV exactly to your spec 4 times over in the time you wasted on this drama. Very puzzling.

Frank

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by jayhawk261

I understand the question for sure. First and foremost, Roger's chassis is designed and built primarily with track in mind. It is a full backbone chassis with shear panels that make it rigid. From a structural standpoint (and I'm a structural engineer), nothing on the market that I'm aware of matches it.

I'm not a structural engineer, but instead a jack-of-all trades (and master of none) civil engineer (and formerly a Jayhawker too). But I had enough structural education such that I was also very impressed with his chassis design when I was researching cars too. I suspect some of it's structural parameters would probably compare fairly well to some current production cars. And, the body appeared to be of very high quality.

But even back in 2008 and 2009 when I was shopping around, he appeared to be dropping or had dropped out of sight.

I'm also very impressed with the engineering in ERA's car (although it's not designed so much with competition track work in mind). You might want to check them out.

[1985 CCX]

Hate these stories....
Why can't folks value their clients and service them fairly? UGH!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I'm also very impressed with the engineering in ERA's car (although it's not designed so much with competition track work in mind). You might want to check them out.

Considering now he has no car at all, he might as well get his name in the queue as it will take a year, give or take, to even get something. And, during that time, he can evaluate the stiffness of the ERA chassis and, if not totally pleased, they'll just give him his deposit back.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by jayhawk261

I waited for 2 years and rearranged many things in my life preparing for the arrival of this car not the least of which was selling my pristine 32,000 mile 1985 Mustang GT this past summer. Had I known he was going to flake on me, I'd still have that car to enjoy.

That's a HUGE bummer. One of my favorites is the Fox-body Mustang and the '85 is the last year of the carb. I love that car. I actually bought a new '86 Saleen back in the day, and even though I enjoyed it a bunch, I would have rather had the '85 (or '89-93) Saleen.

Originally Posted by patrickt

You know, I have to ask, with all of the high-quality Cobra companies out there, (KMS, ERA, SPF, CSX, FFR quickly come to mind), how did you get yourself in to this mess?

You're a dip "S". "Hey, why didn't you buy the $100,000+ Kirkham or CSX?"

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You're a dip "S". "Hey, why didn't you buy the $100,000+ Kirkham or CSX?"

The new FFR would have been lovely, and in his price range, and could have easily been tweaked up to full track competition level.

[jayhawk261]

I'm going to wait a few years before jumping back in. My plan for now is to pick up a 2011-2012 Mustang GT over the winter, add the Ford Racing suspension and a big brake kit and hit the track for a few years. It will probably take that long to really get over this! Then, when I'm ready, I'll hit the market again. I like the Hurricane cars a lot. Their chassis looks really good, and I think it could be modified to add stiffness where needed. It just depends on how much custom work a manufacturer is willing to do.

Originally Posted by patrickt

Considering now he has no car at all, he might as well get his name in the queue as it will take a year, give or take, to even get something. And, during that time, he can evaluate the stiffness of the ERA chassis and, if not totally pleased, they'll just give him his deposit back.

[jayhawk261]

Yes, he dropped out of sight manufacturing-wise back in 2002-2003. The car I ordered was the first one he has built since then.

Rock Chalk!

Originally Posted by DanEC

I'm not a structural engineer, but instead a jack-of-all trades (and master of none) civil engineer (and formerly a Jayhawker too). But I had enough structural education such that I was also very impressed with his chassis design when I was researching cars too. I suspect some of it's structural parameters would probably compare fairly well to some current production cars. And, the body appeared to be of very high quality.

But even back in 2008 and 2009 when I was shopping around, he appeared to be dropping or had dropped out of sight.

I'm also very impressed with the engineering in ERA's car (although it's not designed so much with competition track work in mind). You might want to check them out.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by jayhawk261

I like the Hurricane cars a lot. Their chassis looks really good, and I think it could be modified to add stiffness where needed. It just depends on how much custom work a manufacturer is willing to do.

The nice thing about ERA is they will do anything you pay them to do. Unfortunately, the cost has continued to spiral upward over the years. As to the engineering aspects of the chassis, this page is a quick summary: Chassis design logic

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The new FFR would have been lovely, and in his price range, and could have easily been tweaked up to full track competition level.

Geez, these one-percenters. "I mean, you should have bought one them Artisan Pizzas with four kinds of cheeses, olive oil and sun-dried tomatoes for $35."

[jayhawk261]

Let's keep it civil please I understand where these guys are coming from.

Just like everybody else, I have specific things I want and don't want. I was dumb enough to pin my wants to someone I should have known was likely to flake, but I did. Just ranting now.

The day will come when I have what I want. Just have to find the right one willing to do some custom chassis work.

Originally Posted by RodKnock

That's a HUGE bummer. One of my favorites is the Fox-body Mustang and the '85 is the last year of the carb. I love that car. I actually bought a new '86 Saleen back in the day, and even though I enjoyed it a bunch, I would have rather had the '85 (or '89-93) Saleen.



You're a dip "S". "Hey, why didn't you buy the $100,000+ Kirkham or CSX?"

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Geez, these one-percenters. "I mean, you should have bought one them Artisan Pizzas with four kinds of cheeses, olive oil and sun-dried tomatoes for $35."

Well that does sound delicious. Could I get some black olives thrown in on it?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Could I get some black olives thrown in on it?

Sure, because it'll be the only healthy item on or in the pizza.

[krausewich]

Vent Jayhawk !
This forum and the community could benefit from more of it.
Sharing your experience is invaluable, and too many people fade away silently defeated unwilling to share their experiences. I think that is a disservice!

RU should send you a nice interest payment for the multi-year loan as well! You very well may see me posting a similar rant in the coming weeks too regarding a fiberglass body that has taken 3yrs. and ticking to layup!

Be sure to post in the Consumer Watch section for all to be warned.

Good luck and let us know what we can do to help turn things around for you when decide to give it a go again.

Mike.