Respect vs Fear

[tortuga]

So i was thinking my spf with well north of 500 fwhp is actually downright scary at full war emergency power, twitching its tail trying for all its worth to get the rear wheels to claim their rightful position leading the charge.

I am able (so far anyway) to wiggle that big skinny wood wheel enough to keep the rapidly approaching horizon coming pretty straight at me over the hood...

The thought occurred, is the thrill of it all scaring myself a bit, or reminding myself that these toys are not to be trifled with (respect)?

Roads are nice and empty lately with all this silly hiding at home so the opportunity presents itself...

I am an “essential” so if im working, im playing too...

[1795]

Hopefully it is scaring you enough to remind you not to take the car lightly. In my early twenties I bought a turbo charged Mustang that handled so well that on a routine basis I would be going over 100 mph on twisty back roads on my way to work. Invariably a truck would pull out or I would come across something that would cause me to slam on the brakes and have to make a quick swerve to avoid an accident. My heart would start beating rapidly and rather than saying, "Holy sh@t!" and getting scared, I would say, "Wow!" and feel exhilarated. Within a couple of months I decided that if I wanted to see my mid twenties it would be safer to drive a four wheel drive truck and I got rid of the Mustang until such point that I was more mature.

Having a little fear is a good thing, it keeps us and others safe.

Jim

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by tortuga

The thought occurred, is the thrill of it all scaring myself a bit, or reminding myself that these toys are not to be trifled with (respect)?

Uhhhh, I think you should just stay at home and install a tow hook.

[t walgamuth]

I'm scared.

[twobjshelbys]

Don't be stupid. Empty roads and the fact that cops might be sparsely distributed is not a license to speed. Last night's news had a spot on people doing just that many with fatal results.

On the other hand there are certain maneuvers that are bound to be scary. For example, driving along in 4th on the highway with a slow car in front and dropping to third and stomping the accelerator to pass are almost guaranteed to get you going sideways. If you haven't had it almost happen trust me, it will, and if you've had it happen, then don't do it again. That's what LEARNING means. Like Dirty Harry said, "A Man's Got To Know His Limitations".

If the Cobra scares you in normal circumstances then perhaps you have the wrong car. You should be able to enjoy a ride that is in normal limits, not fear it.

[eschaider]

Your observation about the cars under full power and their skittish nature, for anyone who has driven them, is a very real risk that you have to continually manage to. I have a friend who bought a new Corvette a couple of years ago and also bought a driving school course from Bob Bobdurant's High Performance Driving School.

During the course one of the litmus tests the instructors put the students through was driving the cars with and without the OEM traction control turned on. Predictably the students all did better with the traction control on.

Our cars never came with traction control either as originals or as the replicas we built. Today that can be different. If you have ever considered changing from a carburetor to EFI, and for some of us I know this is heresy, you can avail yourself of some pretty sophisticated traction control capabilities built right into the newest generation EFI systems.

There is a particular system I am biased towards because of capabilities and price. It is the Megasquirt MS3Pro-PNP <= clickable. They call it a PNP system because it uses the original OEM engine wiring harness and Ford ECU plug so it is literally plug and play. It also drives the entire OEM gauge panel if that is important. Most of us opt for the original Smith's look so the instrument panel stuff is not high on our priorities list.

The next item ought to be — it could save your life and others as well. The MS3Pro-PNP system has a built in, tunable traction control system. The system uses OEM wheel speed sensors (VSS in the vernacular) married to the front and rear wheel.

The software provides you the tools to tune the sensors for differing tire sizes and different tire sizes front and rear. Once you're past the tire size stuff you simply set the percentage of slip you are willing to tolerate, say 3%, and when the ECU sees that percentage it progressively pulls timing to maintain the tires at the slip limit you have set. This occurs dynamically in real time without intervention on your part while driving. It is literally a life saver!

Because it is dynamic it changes the character of the vehicle's power application to the tires so it lliterally accommodates all surfaces including wet surfaces. This capability can literally save your life and your car.

If you've always wanted a Weber look there are commercially available plain throttle bodies that look like Webers all you do is put injectors in the already supplied ports. If the eight stack approach is not your cup of tea there are carburetor replacement air valves that bolt on where the Holley was and use port nozzles in the intake manifold above each port for fuel delivery and maintain, for their part, the period correct underhood look.


Ed

[desgros@vtlink.]

Fear and respect probably comes with age. At least for me. Things happen too fast at this point. My Slabside with a SB289 will get my attention, that's when the respect comes in. Fear is getting a ticket or worse hurting someone.

John
ERA #3010 Slabside 289 BRG

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by eschaider

During the course one of the litmus tests the instructors put the students through was driving the cars with and without the OEM traction control turned on. Predictably the students all did better with the traction control on.

Interesting! I did Bondurant three times. The first was the four day class (with the 4th day in the Formula Mazdas, which are the funnest car you'll ever drive). The second and third times were the advanced class in which you get instruction but basically 8 hours of open track with breaks whenever you want/need (note, very easy to get dehydrated).

You're right about the TCS. My experience with TCS was the opposite. They made us leave it on the first two days (in the 4 day class), and then told us we should turn it off on the third. Their words were something like "if you feel TCS kick in and save your butt, remember what you were doing and don't do that again". Very good advice.

Advanced was your choice. My expereince was that the TCS was correcting things that didn't need to be corrected, especially when you figure out the "happy tire is a squealing tire" on turns. If you know the limits of the car in a controlled environment then TCS is a distraction.

Note: Bondurant closed. I think the workers bought it out but I've not heard anything about whether they really are still in business.

[tortuga]

Is that with empty roads the opportunity to “get on it” Without endangering others (really just to get up to speed) is there now...does it scare me driving back roads and around town? Not at all. What im talking about is going WFO during that time between the end of the on ramp and a fast cruise...do it all the time? Absolutely not...

In 5 years and 35000 miles of ownership ive probably spent a cumulative 20 seconds wide open. Thats what im talking about...WFO and driving enthusiastically is apples and oranges with these things.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Interesting! I did Bondurant three times. The first was the four day class (with the 4th day in the Formula Mazdas, which are the funnest car you'll ever drive). The second and third times were the advanced class in which you get instruction but basically 8 hours of open track with breaks whenever you want/need (note, very easy to get dehydrated).

You're right about the TCS. My experience with TCS was the opposite. They made us leave it on the first two days (in the 4 day class), and then told us we should turn it off on the third. Their words were something like "if you feel TCS kick in and save your butt, remember what you were doing and don't do that again". Very good advice.

Advanced was your choice. My expereince was that the TCS was correcting things that didn't need to be corrected, especially when you figure out the "happy tire is a squealing tire" on turns. If you know the limits of the car in a controlled environment then TCS is a distraction.

Note: Bondurant closed. I think the workers bought it out but I've not heard anything about whether they really are still in business.

I think different instructors and different students might produce a slight shuffle in how and when the instructors try to make their driving skills points, Tony. If you are a trained, skilled driver that can put to use, in the cockpit, what you learned in school you should be able to outperform all but the best traction control algorithms. Your point is spot on.

Many of the replica owners / drivers have not, although it is a benefit, taken that type of driving school training. More significantly they are driving what is easily one of the squirreliest (is that a word?) vehicles that you could possibly choose to drive. The greater the underhood power the more you will appreciate the TCS that is built into modern day EFI systems like the MS3Pro.

More than anything else, even for disciplined drivers, the TCS provides that one more layer of protection for that moment we forgot or didn't see coming.

In the FWIW bucket you are right about the bankruptcy but the Bondurant school might be open again. Their website is alive although their home page says it is temporarily closed due to the covid-19 virus. Hope that is correct, it would be a shame to have lost the school again.


Ed

[t walgamuth]

I have autocrossed my cobra a fair amount so I am familiar with how it behaves on the courses , but the road is another matter where the edge of the road can be full of little hills which make the cobra a bit nervous. Of course when on the road any other car is potential death with the featherweight cobra doors.

On the autocross I am confident. On the road I am pretty much scared most of the time. It is good to keep focused. About like I used to be when riding a motorcycle.

[FredG]

It's never been the speed that gets my attention but how quickly they can get to it and the unpredictable adventure they will put you through getting there. Keeps you on your toes. This is my favorite 45 second Cobra video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgVe...4RrUs8rzUxPv84

Fred

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

It is good to keep focused. About like I used to be when riding a motorcycle.

The motorcycle paradigm is 100% accurate. Always be aware of everything going on around you and don't make bold moves, especially if the steering wheel is not going straight.

And it ought to be WHENVER riding a motorcycle.

[ERA 626]

Originally Posted by eschaider

Your observation about the cars under full power and their skittish nature, for anyone who has driven them, is a very real risk that you have to continually manage to. I have a friend who bought a new Corvette a couple of years ago and also bought a driving school course from Bob Bobdurant's High Performance Driving School.

During the course one of the litmus tests the instructors put the students through was driving the cars with and without the OEM traction control turned on. Predictably the students all did better with the traction control on.

Our cars never came with traction control either as originals or as the replicas we built. Today that can be different. If you have ever considered changing from a carburetor to EFI, and for some of us I know this is heresy, you can avail yourself of some pretty sophisticated traction control capabilities built right into the newest generation EFI systems.

There is a particular system I am biased towards because of capabilities and price. It is the Megasquirt MS3Pro-PNP <= clickable. They call it a PNP system because it uses the original OEM engine wiring harness and Ford ECU plug so it is literally plug and play. It also drives the entire OEM gauge panel if that is important. Most of us opt for the original Smith's look so the instrument panel stuff is not high on our priorities list.

The next item ought to be — it could save your life and others as well. The MS3Pro-PNP system has a built in, tunable traction control system. The system uses OEM wheel speed sensors (VSS in the vernacular) married to the front and rear wheel.

The software provides you the tools to tune the sensors for differing tire sizes and different tire sizes front and rear. Once you're past the tire size stuff you simply set the percentage of slip you are willing to tolerate, say 3%, and when the ECU sees that percentage it progressively pulls timing to maintain the tires at the slip limit you have set. This occurs dynamically in real time without intervention on your part while driving. It is literally a life saver!

Because it is dynamic it changes the character of the vehicle's power application to the tires so it lliterally accommodates all surfaces including wet surfaces. This capability can literally save your life and your car.

If you've always wanted a Weber look there are commercially available plain throttle bodies that look like Webers all you do is put injectors in the already supplied ports. If the eight stack approach is not your cup of tea there are carburetor replacement air valves that bolt on where the Holley was and use port nozzles in the intake manifold above each port for fuel delivery and maintain, for their part, the period correct underhood look.


Ed

Great Post... I am also using a Mega Squirt and had not even thought of using it for Traction control... Humm... In terms of Driving scared... In kart racing (in my opinion the purest form of racing) if you drive scared you will most likely make a mistake and get yourself or someone else hurt or killed. If you are driving scared you are driving over your head. Either slow down or get some driving lessons...Can you imagine the green flag drops, 40+ 125cc shifter karts hitting turn 2 at Laguna Seca going north of 100mph, that is called driving skills, rarely is there a incident... You have to trust the people you drive with as well as your skills. NEVER drive scared... JMHO

[Alfa02]

Our Cobras demand Respect, respect, respect. If your at all Fearful, of yours, time to trade it in on something less Lethal, say a new (Already tamed at the Factory) Corvette Seriously, I'm fearful On the Street of the other drivers Example: 19yo girl-boy texting scares the Sh-t out of me. I drove Tanker-Truck's for 28years (2 million+ miles), and raced Sports Cars longer then that, Racing was FAR safer, we have had driver's training, safety equipment, the cars are prepped for racing, etc. Plus as we all know the street is not the place to play, Try a Auto-X (Very Safe) or even a track day, but know your limits on track. Cheers TommyRot.

[eschaider]

As vehicle owners / builders, in many cases, we all recognize our car's potential to easily get out of control without warning. The idea of using a TCS is not about trying to optimize the performance of the vehicle. It is all about safety and allowing us to drive the vehicle without having to pay continuous attention to the road surface / conditions to prevent a crash or worse.

The fact that the TCS is an all on 100% of the time traction control safety allows us to enjoy the car w/o the continual need to be sensing if we have pushed s bit too far. People can get tired, fatigued or just complacent with the vehicle and its handling proclivities. A computer will not — although it can breakdown. It's breakdowns will occur less frequently than our human misjudgments.

In the end this is about optimizing safety, you, me, the car and innocent bystanders — nothing more.


Ed

[xb-60]

I don't know, I must be too 'mature' to understand this.
I have never been able to understand why, if you're building a replica, you would want to build mega-horsepower into your 289 replica or 427 replica. The originals got by with those displacements, so why do some of us chase so much displacement and horsepower that our cars become dangerous?
Were there 400+ cid Windsors and 500+ cid FEs available in the '60s? No. So why put them in now?

As Ed said above....

Originally Posted by eschaider

.....In the end this is about optimizing safety, you, me, the car and innocent bystanders....

For varied reasons....stay safe!

Cheers,
Glen

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Before you step on gas remember to put your medical card in your wallet.
Perry

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by HighPlainsDrifter

Before you step on gas remember to put your medical card in your wallet.
Perry

And an organ donor card for both you and your car. That way, when someone is looking at the pile of rubble and says "dang, I could really use that intake manifold..." you've already put the machinery in place for him to get it.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by xb-60

I don't know, I must be too 'mature' to understand this.
I have never been able to understand why, if you're building a replica, you would want to build mega-horsepower into your 289 replica or 427 replica. The originals got by with those displacements, so why do some of us chase so much displacement and horsepower that our cars become dangerous?
Were there 400+ cid Windsors and 500+ cid FEs available in the '60s? No. So why put them in now?

Bragging rights.