Kirkham vs Shelby

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by nkb

Is the SPF slabside generally understood to have a more accurate body than the ERA? That could definitely influence my decision between the two (or the CSX fiberglass )

The devil is in the chassis details. ERA builds both (big and small block) models on a rectangular tube chassis with a coilover suspension. For the slab, SPF uses an authentic round tube chassis with the correct transverse leaf suspension. The body shape is beautifully executed and if superficial appearance is a primary driving factor, it certainly holds its own against the ERA. I suppose it would boil down to whether you feel the authenticity factor is worth the relatively reasonable bump in the sticker price.

[nkb]

Originally Posted by Buzz

The devil is in the chassis details. ERA builds both (big and small block) models on a rectangular tube chassis with a coilover suspension. For the slab, SPF uses an authentic round tube chassis with the correct transverse leaf suspension. The body shape is beautifully executed and if superficial appearance is a primary driving factor, it certainly holds its own against the ERA. I suppose it would boil down to whether you feel the authenticity factor is worth the relatively reasonable bump in the sticker price.

And as a follow-on question, is there a difference between the SPF and CSX slab sides (body, frame, suspension) since I understand SPF (Hi Tech) supplies Shelby? I had initially thought the only difference was in branding and a CSX VIN number. But, perhaps there are more physical differences for the two slab sides even though ostensibly from the same manufacturer ?

[1795]

When I received the first photos from the factory for my SPF FIA next to the frame and transverse leaf spring suspension was a CSX placard. There may be some minor details, but nothing substantial. I have had owners of original 289 cars comment on how close mine is to theirs, with the exception of the fiberglass. The most major difference is that my car does not have a CSX number.

It all depends on what you are looking for, it's your money and your decision.

[ERA 626]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

My $0.02 CORRECTED............

KMS/CSX are the same car in alloy and will be well north of $100k to start particularly if you are going buggy spring.

Remember std KMS is like an ERA 289 car, a hybrid using a 427 chassis.
KMS upcharges for buggy spring chassis Big$$.

SPF is a great option as its both CSX glass and SPF using buggy spring chassis.
I love ERA cars but I would pay the extra few bucks for SPF as its buggy spring and not a Hybrid chassis. More correct. Glass CSX cars are SPF cars.....

Top down:
CSX alloy expect finished price >$200k
KMS alloy expect completed at >$200K buggy Spring ($less hybrid chassis)
CSX glass ~ $140k buggy spring
SPF glass ~ $110k buggy spring
ERA glass ~ $100k glass / hybrid chassis

Of course I menatlly added things for correctness which could change $ but this should be about right in the end for decision making purposes.
The base car is mearley the start as motor, trans, wheels, tires adds $$.

your comment about glass CSX cars being SPF cars? you are correct in saying that both cars are made by hi-tech in the same factory but completely different cars.

[ERA 626]

Originally Posted by Buzz

The devil is in the chassis details. ERA builds both (big and small block) models on a rectangular tube chassis with a coilover suspension. For the slab, SPF uses an authentic round tube chassis with the correct transverse leaf suspension. The body shape is beautifully executed and if superficial appearance is a primary driving factor, it certainly holds its own against the ERA. I suppose it would boil down to whether you feel the authenticity factor is worth the relatively reasonable bump in the sticker price.

The customer service from ERA will be light years better that SPF...

[LMH]

Originally Posted by nkb

And as a follow-on question, is there a difference between the SPF and CSX slab sides (body, frame, suspension) since I understand SPF (Hi Tech) supplies Shelby? I had initially thought the only difference was in branding and a CSX VIN number. But, perhaps there are more physical differences for the two slab sides even though ostensibly from the same manufacturer ?

For the fiberglass CSX car vs the SPF fiberglass car, there isn't much of a difference except possibly the differential. I don't know if the CSX car comes standard with a 4HU differential or not but it's optional on the SPF. Badging and brake caliper lettering are different I think but bodies come from the same mold. Chassis come from the same jig.
Larry

[1985 CCX]

Originally Posted by ERA 626

your comment about glass CSX cars being SPF cars? you are correct in saying that both cars are made by hi-tech in the same factory but completely different cars.

We are talikng about the current 289 cars here, not 427 cars to which your statement holds true.
Yes "HiTech" but virtually the same in 289 lanes.....
The reason I stated SPF as most understand its HT some will see HiTech as possibly from AZ vs the one from S. Africa. Confusing....

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by ERA 626

your comment about glass CSX cars being SPF cars? you are correct in saying that both cars are made by hi-tech in the same factory but completely different cars.

This is absolutely incorrect in relation to the slabside Cobras. The HT/SPF 427 car is completely different from the 427 that they build for Shelby, but their slabside is the exact same car, minus badging, branding, that all-important (to some) CSX number and I think - as mentioned by Larry - the optional differential.

Originally Posted by ERA 626

The customer service from ERA will be light years better that SPF...

Well the OP never asked about customer service, so I'd best leave that debate to others except to add that given ERA's well-established focus and pride in their limited production and extremely long wait times; it wouldn't surprise me one bit if SPF wasn't better able (and/or inclined**) to be faster and more responsive to new or potential customers and their pesky inquiries.

**kinda based on personal experience

[1ntCobra]

Well it is not a CSX 8000 slabside, but there is an aluminum 50th Anniversary CSX 7000 FIA on BAT ending in a few hours.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...h-anniversary/

I suspect that the seller will want more than $200K for it. I wonder if it will meet the reserve price. On the other hand if the seller is thinking about the 50th Anniversary badges, maybe the seller will set the reserve to be more like $300K.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Buzz

This is absolutely incorrect in relation to the slabside Cobras. The HT/SPF 427 car is completely different from the 427 that they build for Shelby, but their slabside is the exact same car, minus badging, branding, that all-important (to some) CSX number and I think - as mentioned by Larry - the optional differential.



Well the OP never asked about customer service, so I'd best leave that debate to others except to add that given ERA's well-established focus and pride in their limited production and extremely long wait times; it wouldn't surprise me one bit if SPF wasn't better able (and/or inclined**) to be faster and more responsive to new or potential customers and their pesky inquiries.

**kinda based on personal experience

It seems to me that if you want to get an SPF and want good customer service that you should be getting the car from forum user "Mark IV".

https://www.timemachineauto.com/

From reading the posts by forum user "1795", it seems that time machines auto is extremely helpful.

[1795]

I would highly recommend Rick (Mark IV) to anyone considering buying an SPF. He goes above and beyond, will go out of his way to help people who he has not sold a car to, and will not feed you a line of garbage to get a sale. If there are delays or problems he will let you know up front, before you put your money down.

A truly class act.

Jim

[incoming]

I almost had my wife talked into buying an Aurora in Atlanta two years ago. I constantly show her the prices for them now after the movie.

She occasionally thinks my toys might be investments now.

Knuckleheads, Panheads, Shovelheads,etc. I also used to buy almost anything Mauser.

She says when I die she'll have a large garage sale. Told her the local Saints and ATF will both show up.

[nkb]

Following another current topic thread here it looks like the California CARB (California Air Resources Board) has thrown a wrench into registering replicas. They are maintaining that “rollers” don’t qualify for exemption from smog rules and can’t be registered. They want cars to be assembled from the “ground up” by the hobbyist and further not for resale.

Not sure where this might end up. Obviously the principal suppliers must be fighting this. But if this situation persists then Shelby and SPF rollers could not be registered in California.

Kirkham and ERA will deliver non rollers, if desired, that presumably would still qualify. Of course you need to assemble them.

Hopefully, this registration snafu will get cleared up.

[Sycraft]

so sell without wheels, cant roll...

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by LMH

For the fiberglass CSX car vs the SPF fiberglass car, there isn't much of a difference except possibly the differential. I don't know if the CSX car comes standard with a 4HU differential or not but it's optional on the SPF. Badging and brake caliper lettering are different I think but bodies come from the same mold. Chassis come from the same jig.
Larry

Basically correct. There are some differences, the Shelby has "SHELBY" branded calipers while the SPF has "Wilwood" branded. The SPF has the ZF differential standard with CV joint axles with the Salisbury optional in either the alloy 4HU type or a reman Jaguar type with mounting adaptors (hint: The iron Jag doesn't have the fluid leakage/pump out issue the alloy unit does). The Salisbury option uses Dana "plunge" axles as per the day. The bodies and chassis' come off the same tooling that is owned by the same person. There are slight differences in some of the options as on the SPF side we offer things like EPAS electric power steering and we know that if you order a red or tan interior the dash should be black as NO Cobras came with red or tan dashes. We currently have car going to build that will be a very well done duplicate of an early 289 with Smiths gauges and some other minor but noticeable differences.

We were involved in the prototyping of the SPF leaf spring car which was then co-opted by Shelby for the Anniversary FIA and street roadster models ("Slabside"...hate that term, nothing "flat" about them).

Here is Jim's (1795) SPF FIA at the Pittsburgh Vintage: https://www.matthewlittlephotography...2021/i-SQ3PxGr

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Basically correct. There are some differences, the Shelby has "SHELBY" branded calipers while the SPF has "Wilwood" branded. The SPF has the ZF differential standard with CV joint axles with the Salisbury optional in either the alloy 4HU type or a reman Jaguar type with mounting adaptors (hint: The iron Jag doesn't have the fluid leakage/pump out issue the alloy unit does). The Salisbury option uses Dana "plunge" axles as per the day. The bodies and chassis' come off the same tooling that is owned by the same person. There are slight differences in some of the options as on the SPF side we offer things like EPAS electric power steering and we know that if you order a red or tan interior the dash should be black as NO Cobras came with red or tan dashes. We currently have car going to build that will be a very well done duplicate of an early 289 with Smiths gauges and some other minor but noticeable differences.

We were involved in the prototyping of the SPF leaf spring car which was then co-opted by Shelby for the Anniversary FIA and street roadster models ("Slabside"...hate that term, nothing "flat" about them).

Here is Jim's (1795) SPF FIA at the Pittsburgh Vintage: https://www.matthewlittlephotography...2021/i-SQ3PxGr

Rick,

From what I recall, it seems that SPF likes to install the optional Kirkham alloy differential incorrectly, which causes the pump out and SPF has no intention of changing how they do the installation.

I think it was discussed in this lengthy thread, which I don't feel like re-reading at this point.

KMS Differential Questions

You seem to have some influence at SPF, maybe if you referred them to the correct way to install the Kirkham differentials, they might pay attention to you?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

I think it was discussed in this lengthy thread, which I don't feel like re-reading at this point.

KMS Differential Questions

That was one of the more educational threads that we've had, and an entertaining one as well. But if you've got a diff that can suffer the "I got pumped dry" problem, it's a pretty big deal. Mandatory reading for a new or prospective Cobra owner.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by nkb

Kirkham and ERA will deliver non rollers, if desired, that presumably would still qualify. Of course you need to assemble them.

Hopefully, this registration snafu will get cleared up.

Alright, we're closing in on a month since your original post. Any progress? Or have you thrown in the towel.

[nkb]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Alright, we're closing in on a month since your original post. Any progress? Or have you thrown in the towel.

I haven't thrown in the towel yet. Continuing my education. Went to the Cobra Experience - a must see if you can make it. Spoke with Drew Serb as well as several Cobra replica owners in attendance.

I have no news that the registration snafu here in California has been cleared up yet. Local SPF/CSX dealer here says he expects it to get straightened out. Question is if and when?

For the 289 (slabside) I think I have narrowed it down to SPF and ERA.

Pros for the SPF:
- Delivery time (including paint) is about 7 months.
- More correct chassis and suspension
Cons:
- Marginally more expensive (but depends on how much to paint the ERA)
- Delivered as a roller {pro and con). Seems to cause some CA BAR referees to rule the SPF as not a kit - potentially disqualified for smog exempt registration. TBD


Pros for the ERA:
- Peter seems to be great guy. Would be enjoyable to work with.
- More flexibility on the degree of completeness of assembly as delivered. Opportunity to do more of the work myself. May assist in the CA registration, clearly qualifying it as a kit.

Cons for the ERA:
- Delivery time 14 months. And then paint (another 12 weeks as per Peter). But could paint locally, later. Could leave unpainted for the CA registration - would help the case that it is a kit?
- Chassis and suspension, while apparently well engineered, does not attempt to be original. Wondering about the inboard rear brakes being a headache.
- Have to pay for shipping from East to West Coast.

I ruled out the Kirkham, as way too expensive - now around $250K. And the cost of the Shelby fiberglass CSX as not worth it (to me) with the significant bump over the SPF.


In the meantime I have not driven a Cobra in 50 years (CSX). Makes sense to test drive an SPF or ERA first before placing an order. Hopefully a 289.

And I continue to monitor the registration environment here in California.

Hopefully, I anticipate pulling the trigger on this by the end of the year.

[ERA 626]

Originally Posted by nkb

I haven't thrown in the towel yet. Continuing my education. Went to the Cobra Experience - a must see if you can make it. Spoke with Drew Serb as well as several Cobra replica owners in attendance.

I have no news that the registration snafu here in California has been cleared up yet. Local SPF/CSX dealer here says he expects it to get straightened out. Question is if and when?

For the 289 (slabside) I think I have narrowed it down to SPF and ERA.

Pros for the SPF:
- Delivery time (including paint) is about 7 months.
- More correct chassis and suspension
Cons:
- Marginally more expensive (but depends on how much to paint the ERA)
- Delivered as a roller {pro and con). Seems to cause some CA BAR referees to rule the SPF as not a kit - potentially disqualified for smog exempt registration. TBD


Pros for the ERA:
- Peter seems to be great guy. Would be enjoyable to work with.
- More flexibility on the degree of completeness of assembly as delivered. Opportunity to do more of the work myself. May assist in the CA registration, clearly qualifying it as a kit.

Cons for the ERA:
- Delivery time 14 months. And then paint (another 12 weeks as per Peter). But could paint locally, later. Could leave unpainted for the CA registration - would help the case that it is a kit?
- Chassis and suspension, while apparently well engineered, does not attempt to be original. Wondering about the inboard rear brakes being a headache.
- Have to pay for shipping from East to West Coast.

I ruled out the Kirkham, as way too expensive - now around $250K. And the cost of the Shelby fiberglass CSX as not worth it (to me) with the significant bump over the SPF.


In the meantime I have not driven a Cobra in 50 years (CSX). Makes sense to test drive an SPF or ERA first before placing an order. Hopefully a 289.

And I continue to monitor the registration environment here in California.

Hopefully, I anticipate pulling the trigger on this by the end of the year.

I have owned both cars ERA and CSX (427s) I can tell you from 1st hand experience:

I got my HT/SPF CSX car from Denbeste, Bill is a great guy and was very helpful on the sale of the car but that's where his customer service stops. Bill directed me to call Hillbank for service issues and parts. The customer service from Hillbank (CSX and SPF dealer) is the worst I have ever dealt with EVER.

I often called David Kirkham for help on issues I had with my CSX car as the kirkham car and the GLASS CSX car are very similar (except the glass body) David Kirkham is just like Peter P in terms of customer service. A++

ERA is the exact Opposite, Peter is the best in the business. he has help me over the 17 years I owned the car and even to this day...

I cant say anything about the slabside cars as I have owned 427 cars, but one thing I can say is the SPF 427 and the CSX GLASS HT/SPF cars are completely different. I am not saying one is better than the other, I am simply stating they are different cars completely.

in terms of the quality of the roller:
The Era car was perfect everything was bolt on...

The CSX Car had several issues that needed to be repaired, some done in the south Africa factory and most of the issues like the wrong hardware being installed in the drive train and the electrical/gauges being wired wrong were done by Hillbank or whoever they hired to do the installation. Needless to say it took me a lot of time to fix all the issues with the car. But at the end of the day its a top shelf car... The ERA was perfect from day one.

But if holding value is an issue you cant go wrong with either the ERA, SPF or the CSX.