Kirkham vs Shelby

[nkb]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Since you placed your order in December of 2021 I think I fair time for having it on the street is going to be two and half years. Turnkey ERAs are running around that time, maybe a bit longer.

David Kirkham already had an alloy 289 body/chassis in stock when I placed my order so I didn't have to start with waiting for it to be manufactured in Poland and shipped to Utah. I understand there are no 289 chassis/bodies in stock anymore at Kirkham. And the tooling was being sent back to Utah from Poland for refurbishment. So no new alloy 289 body/chassis via Kirkham for a while.

Thus, if you placed an order today, assuming same production process including via SA, might be looking well into 3 years plus.

[twobjshelbys]

I'm still not sure I understand the process of getting a Kirkham and sending it to HiTech vs just having Kirkham do the car... Please explain.

[twobjshelbys]

more replies stuck behind a page change. Maybe this will free them.

Ps. It did

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I'm still not sure I understand the process of getting a Kirkham and sending it to HiTech vs just having Kirkham do the car... Please explain.

With the CSX# assigned to it, it is then a "Real" shelby product vs a Cobra replica by Kirkham

It's a matter of drinking the advertised Koolaid and believing it to all be true.


To some, who view the car as a future investment, it matters, for most enthusiasts, it does not.


Bill S.

[nkb]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I'm still not sure I understand the process of getting a Kirkham and sending it to HiTech vs just having Kirkham do the car... Please explain.

I will try to explain the alloy CSX production process of today as I best understand it. I will say that this is as I have discovered it over the last two years. It has been different in the past and perhaps may still yet change further in the future.

At the moment if one wants to buy a "new" CSX alloy car there are a couple of options:

1. Shelby Legendary. Basically a part of Superformance. Alloy bodies/chassis are obtained from Kirkham and finished into a CSX roller. The roller assembly is normally performed at Hi Tech in South Africa on the Superformance production line. As such, components are shared with Superformance models, but with some unique differences (differential, ..). Alloy cars are painted in South Africa alongside their SPF brethren. I don't think a polished alloy is an option. The cars are delivered from South Africa to the US where Shelby Legendary(Hillbank) installs the Kirkham differential/half shafts. That is not done in SA.

Shelby Legendary can also engage Kirkham to finish the rollers to a CSX spec as well, remaining in the US. The issue is that this costs Shelby a lot more than finishing the cars in SA. This uptick in costs is necessarily passed on to the customer. There are differences in the final CSX roller between those produced at Hi Tech and Kirkham but not necessarily immediately obvious. With respect to 289's there can be differences in the brake units, dashboards, plumbing, fluid containers, wiring, gauges, dash lights, bumpers, etc. Neither replica (or continuation) is precisely true to an original.

2. Den Beste. Continuation alloy CSX's can also be obtained via DenBeste. These are also provided by Kirkham in the same way as supplied to Shelby Legendary. DenBeste then completes the cars with an engine choice from his Shelby Engine Company. One further difference from Shelby Legendary is the CSX numbers, instead of being the newer CSX 6000/7000/8000, are sometimes original series numbers(CSX 2000/3000).

3. Drew Serb. An alloy CSX car can also be obtained through Drew Serb (Cobra Experience Museum). These are not rollers but complete turnkey cars. They do not originate with Kirkham but are handcrafted at Serb's shop using original panel beating techniques. The final cars are quite accurate in adherence to originality and bear original series VIN numbers (CSX 2000/3000). These are sometimes referred to as "completion" vs "continuation" cars.

In my own decision making:

1. I wanted a car wherein I had some content in producing the car. Thus, a roller made sense. Serb will only provide complete turnkey cars.

2. This led me to the CSX roller based on an alloy Kirkham, either through Shelby Legendary or DenBeste. It then became an issue of price and availability. I ended up with Shelby Legendary.

3. With Shelby Legendary, I tried to make the argument that the CSX roller would more efficiently be produced in Utah by Kirkham. But, in the end, I did not prevail as it apparently cost Shelby Legendary more money to go that route. Thus, my car was consigned to South Africa. I found out later that some customers were offered the Kirkham production avenue in exchange for a significant surcharge.

4. Finally, whether the car was turned into a CSX roller by Kirkham or Hi Tech there are some differences relative to both approaches. Both Kirkham and HiTech produce high quality products. But, in the end, I knew that either way I would be "fixing"/"correcting" the received roller into a more accurate "continuation" CSX with my accumulated original parts.

In any event, there really is no "standard" well established process for the supply of an alloy CSX. The cars are rare to begin with and in very small production numbers so regularizing or streamlining the process is apparently not of interest.

And, as has been shown recently a CSX number has now been affixed to Superformance Mark III 30th anniversary cars. So, a CSX number is now on a Superformance (not Shelby) branded car. Those of us that have opted for a continuation CSX car can now probably understand how original owners of a 60's CSX car feel. When you see the proliferation of new CSX cars (even some with original series CSX 2000/3000 numbers), does this dilute (cheapen) the whole notion of a CSX number? Everyone apparently trying to cozy up to the originals, or worst case impersonate them.

And now, a CSX VIN on a non-Shelby branded car (SPF). What's next ? A CSX number on an FFR or BDR?

[nkb]

My alloy CSX 8000 roller has finally completed its circumnavigation of the earth. 2 1/2 years after my order the car is back in the US at Hillbank for final touches (differential, half shafts, etc) before delivery to me. (Previous warnings noted regarding the "dealer installations" that will be rechecked and probably redone).

The alloy car sticks out among the shiny Cobras and GT40's. I don't think they see many alloy cars and unpainted ones at that.

[CSX2345]

Any updates on your build?

Cheers

[nkb]

The aluminum Shelby CSX 8000 roller finally arrived at my house on March 23 after 844 days from placing my order and circumnavigating the earth. The car is KMP 1010 transformed into CSX 8057. Differentiating this car are custom fabrications that depart from both a Kirkham 289 and a “standard issue” CSX 8000, all in the interest of originality. The reference car for my build is CSX 2190, an early 289 street roadster that is highly original.




Several (smaller) items were missing when the roller was first delivered. A couple of later deliveries from Hillbank included the missing parts. But I am still missing as of this date some items (seat belts, correct side curtain ferrules, correct door latches and strikers). The bonnet latches and door hardware installed are Kirkham billet CNC items. Nice but not particularly original and bearing Kirkham logos which is not desired.

One of the first things I did with the build was to attempt to replace the Salisbury 4HU diff rear cover. The reason for this is to use an original cover instead, along with an original vent configuration. After much research I did not want to use the cover (from a Jeep) on the Kirkham supplied diff that has the fill hole too high and has internal contours that promote oil escaping from the vent hole and thereby requiring a catch can. Thus, I opted to use an original cover (sourced via Ebay) and an original type vent instead. This original configuration historically worked fine on the 60’s cars without any catch can. I was told the reason for using the Jeep cover is that original ones could not readily be sourced. Kirkham also now makes a billet version but I believe that it also requires a catch can and may not have a baffle over the vent hole. You can refer to numerous other posts on this forum that go into the Kirkham diff vent issue at length.


Jeep cover on left. Original on right

I found that I could not remove the diff cover in situ thus requiring removal of the entire diff. (How many people get a new car and immediately drop the differential?) Upon removing the existing Jeep cover I found, to my horror, an errant rivet lying inside at the bottom of the case. A mystery how the rivet got in there but just as glad to have discovered this and not have this chewing around the gears and bearings.







I also discovered that the front mount threads had been over torqued and were stripped and compromised. David Kirkham was gracious enough to supply me with a new front mount insert at no cost even though it was not caused by him or his responsibility (I purchased the car from Shelby). Kudos to David and his well-deserved reputation for stellar customer support (even when you are not a direct customer). Also, the nylocks on the upper diff mount bolts were over torqued thereby shredding the nylon inserts. Easy to replace with new nuts. The Kirkham diff was installed at Hillbank not at Hi Tech/Shelby in South Africa or Kirkham.

My reinstallation of the diff was a real pain. I thought I might have finally met my match but got it in the end. Since I had removed the differential, I went ahead and painted it an original type red. Lots of posts on the forum as to the “correct” red and the usual amazing information from Dan Case. I ended up using red Glyptal enamel which is notionally close.





I installed an Odyssey group 75 battery with an Autolite Staful cover. This battery allowed for adhering to the original orientation of the posts with the negative ground toward the inside. The battery is also a bit smaller allowing for easier installation, though I had to use a spacer to raise it in height. The Autolite 24F repro batteries (for Mustangs) have these posts reversed. The 24F is also too big to fit in the supplied battery box on the CSX 8000. I also chose to put in a remote cutoff latching relay (push button to be in the glove box) as I like to have the battery disconnected when parked. Also provides a form of theft switch as well. I further replaced the 50 amp main fuse with a 50 amp circuit breaker.



I found that the factory (HiTech/Shelby) modified the standard wiring to accommodate my original Lucas ammeter that I had told them I was going to use. This was another pleasant surprise as I had expected to have to modify the wiring myself. I will be relocating the supplied voltmeter hidden in the glove box along with a Smiths fuel pressure gauge.


Also installing an original dated 1963 Rotunda tachometer, correct for this car. I am fabricating an adapter plate as per Dan Case as the Rotunda is slightly smaller than the Smiths tach - as per original.



I had complained vociferously to the Factory about the standard CSX 8000 dashboard being quite incorrect (glove box size, overall dimensions, exposed glove box hinge, gauge locations, etc.). It was also revealed that the Kirkham dash supplied with my KMP 1010 was just a scrap placeholder and was never intended by Kirkham to remain on the car.

I found to my pleasant surprise that the factory had fabricated a correct custom dash based upon the photos of originals that I had supplied them. I had expected that I was going to have to replace the dash in toto myself, so I am very pleased. The factory did this customization on their own without telling me and at no extra charge. I don’t know why they don’t supply this correct dash going forward for the CSX cars, at least the alloy ones. But they only make one or two CSX 8000 alloy cars a year. My car is just one of twenty-seven in existence to date. It should be noted that Kirkham does make a correct 289 dash but Shelby had not ordered one for my car.


I have an excellent large wiring diagram from Blas that has been invaluable. We will be updating this to accommodate the custom work done at the factory (ammeter wiring – which is a departure from standard). Also, I am replacing the entire Superformance based fuse block and relays with a mini Bussman RTMR hidden within a hollowed out original Ford voltage regulator. This requires rerouting the harness but I am retaining the overall modern electrical design intact. I had instructed the factory to not affix anything to the footboxes or the firewall to allow me to emulate an original car with correct components- voltage regulator, relays, DR3 wiper motor, etc. in the correct locations.

Other customizations at the factory that were done:

- Fabrication of a correct T10 transmission chassis bracket. I supplied them with the dimensions of the original mount as they did not have access to one.

- Modification of the standard CSX 8000 radiator for an upturned radiator outlet to allow use of an original type 289 Otter switch and housing

- Installation of a narrower rear bumper. The standard CSX 8000 bumper is from a 427 and too wide. Apparently this narrower, more correct, 289 rear bumper is what is used in the Australian market (probably some kind of safety regulation – avoiding the overhang).



As previously noted, the car being constructed is an early 289 (pre CSX 2200) with CSX 2190 being my reference car. As such, these cars had a generator. I am using an alternator disguised as a generator. This requires a cove to be cut into the passenger side front engine bay panel for clearance as was pointed out to me by Drew Serb (I didn’t realize this at first). An original generator cove template was graciously supplied by the owner of CSX 2073 (Bob Beede). The cove is being fabricated by Jere Kirkpatrick, an original Shelby crew member, as well as a factory Dragonsnake driver/mechanic along with his partner Tony Stoer (who I recently met at a local car show). A nice touch having one of the original Shelby crew contribute a part to my car. Jere probably had his hands on every CSX 2000 car made. Here is what the cove template looks like. Jere plans on posting the fabrication and installation of the cove on his YouTube channel.

Other details. I have installed an original “key hole” Ceandess gas cap. The factory obliged me by providing a pilot hole for the cap. The standard CSX 8000 cap supplied is not particularly original. With some trepidation I drilled the large hole for the filler neck. I had to remove the seats and rear bulkhead to gain access to the fuel tank. Still to be done is to plumb for the Aeromotive fuel pump/filters. This will feed the original Carter mechanical fuel pump that now only serves as a secondary filter.


Note: the black factory assembly line Rotunda oil filter (my creation). The original ones were usually discarded at the first oil change. You can find an original one on Ebay for $850.



I have a lot of work to do but taking it carefully. It is a labor of love with no real schedule although I would like to take the car to the next Cobra Day at the Cobra Experience in a year. It might not be painted at that point but hopefully fully functional and registered.

[CSX2345]

Thanks for the update and walking us through the period details on your build.

Glad to hear it's finally home and safe after its world tour.

This is shaping up to be one of if not the most accurate CSX 8000 289.

Good catch on the loose rivet in the diff btw.

Cheers

[PDUB]

The rivet story is amazing... how does that happen? Looks like an incredible build. Keep us posted. Great work!

[Blas]

It’s possible the rivet was sitting on top of the differential case or a chassis member and just happen to fall into the case when you removed the cover. The differential was not in the car at the factory where all the riveting was done right? It was Installed in at dealer. Or possibly originated at Kirkham’s who supplied the diff.
Can’t see the factory responsible for that problem. Just reviewing the facts here.

[nkb]

Originally Posted by Blas

It’s possible the rivet was sitting on top of the differential case or a chassis member and just happen to fall into the case when you removed the cover. The differential was not in the car at the factory where all the riveting was done right? It was Installed in at dealer. Or possibly originated at Kirkham’s who supplied the diff.
Can’t see the factory responsible for that problem. Just reviewing the facts here.

Blas, I agree that the rivet could not have gotten into the diff at the factory in South Africa. The Kirkham diff was never there. The diff would have been shipped directly from Kirkham to the dealer, as I understand it.

I am not pointing a finger at anybody. Just glad it has been removed.

I have not done an extensive "forensic" examination but just note the following.

1. The diff originated at Kirkham. David Kirkham pointed out that their riveting activities are in a completely different area from their diff assembly. So, unlikely. Also, Kirkham is known for being rigorous in everything they do.

2. The diff was shipped to the dealer in Irvine where it was installed. The dealer would have had no reason to open the diff case. Could the rivet have been introduced somehow when the vent fitting and catch can hose were fitted? But, hard to imagine that.

3. The factory, as noted, did not have access to the diff. But, they did do some riveting in the rear area. They modified the trunk with some chamfers to accommodate the Wilwood brakes with integrated hand brake. Thus, perhaps the errant rivet was left somewhere on the chassis members. The rivet would then have to have remained somewhere there as the roller, in the container with 3 other cars, made its way to Los Angeles. There were four ship transfers along the way as well as various truck transports. All without the rivet having been dislodged and harmlessly falling out.

4. The rivet lurking somewhere on the chassis would then have to have fallen onto the diff case either during installation at the dealer or during my removal. I also don't think the dealer did any riveting to introduce a loose rivet.

5. As Blas has said, I could imagine, once the diff was in place, that the rivet dropped into one of the wedges between the diff case and the top mounts and stayed there. I removed the entire diff from the car with the cover in place. I removed the cover thereafter. So, while the rivet could not have fallen into the case from a chassis member, perhaps it fell in, unnoticed, from a top diff mount wedge area when removing the cover.

We will never know how the rivet ended up resting inside the case. I certainly cannot point fingers at anyone. Just glad that I was fortunate to find it. Perhaps it would never been a problem as the rivet never actually resided within the case. I would like to think that is the case.