Question about selling an older build eligable for overseas sale

[767Jockey]

I have absolutely no plans whatsoever at this time to sell my Cobra. That said, at some point like with all of us, that day will inevitably come. My Cobra is a Contemporary, built back in 1984. It's currently titled in New York as a "1984 Homebuilt". As such I would presume it's eligable for sale in overseas countries that require an older build to be eligable to purchase there. I assume the title being issued in New York as a 1984 would suffice for that?

The reason I ask about this is that I live in Texas and I'm about to start the process of transferring my current New York title to a Texas title. I'm not 100% certain as to how Texas will title the car. I don't want to lose the ability to sell the car down the road to a purchaser who needs an older build to be able to buy the car. How do these countries requiring an older car for purchase/import determine the build date to see if it's eligable? What would I need to title the car as, and does the title type or date have anything to do with that eligablity?

Can anyone who has sold an older Cobra overseas or a can a non-US based Cobra purchaser who lives in one of these countries comment on what proof is needed from the purchasers country as to the verified age of the build? I have already have made color photo copies of the NYS title, what else would I need to do to preserve that eligability?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I have absolutely no plans whatsoever at this time to sell my Cobra. That said, at some point like with all of us, that day will inevitably come. My Cobra is a Contemporary, built back in 1984. It's currently titled in New York as a "1984 Homebuilt". As such I would presume it's eligable for sale in overseas countries that require an older build to be eligable to purchase there. I assume the title being issued in New York as a 1984 would suffice for that?

The reason I ask about this is that I live in Texas and I'm about to start the process of transferring my current New York title to a Texas title. I'm not 100% certain as to how Texas will title the car. I don't want to lose the ability to sell the car down the road to a purchaser who needs an older build to be able to buy the car. How do these countries requiring an older car for purchase/import determine the build date to see if it's eligable? What would I need to title the car as, and does the title type or date have anything to do with that eligibility?

Can anyone who has sold an older Cobra overseas or a can a non-US based Cobra purchaser who lives in one of these countries comment on what proof is needed from the purchasers country as to the verified age of the build? I have already have made color photo copies of the NYS title, what else would I need to do to preserve that eligability?

Texas should accept the title on face value.

As for selling overseas, the original documentation of the sale of the kit is what the overseas countries will be looking at most of the time. Not always available, the title would then be a secondary.

Bill S.

PS: I saw a recent post about CCX3109 being a 1984 build, strange, as my current CCX 3110 (also for sale)has paperwork of it's original sale dated 3/1994.

[twobjshelbys]

If your NY title shows a registration date then keep a copy of it. (It is unlikely the new state will allow you to keep the actual real old title, since there can be at most one title outstanding anywhere at a time. ) Often the new title will have a reference to the previous title (state, number) so you could show the history with that linkage.

But wait, what is the date on the title? There are lots of Cobras running around (mine included) that said it was a 1965 Shelby Cobra (even though it had a California title, no arguments about SB100 stuff.) The ISSUE DATE of the previous title is what is going to matter to an importer, not the vehicle description.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

If your NY title shows a registration date then keep a copy of it. (It is unlikely the new state will allow you to keep the actual real old title, since there can be at most one title outstanding anywhere at a time. ) Often the new title will have a reference to the previous title (state, number) so you could show the history with that linkage.

But wait, what is the date on the title? There are lots of Cobras running around (mine included) that said it was a 1965 Shelby Cobra (even though it had a California title, no arguments about SB100 stuff.) The ISSUE DATE of the previous title is what is going to matter to an importer, not the vehicle description.

How about "1965" "Coba", yes, really

[strictlypersonl]

I get inquiries all the time about supplying (pre-1990) documentation so that a car can be registered in Europe. Fortunately, we save everything, but we're running out of space for the many file cabinets required.

[767Jockey]

The New York title that I hold was issued in March of 2007, whuch is when I bought the car as a long ago finished car. I do not have the previous owners title, and New York is unable to provide that as well as proof that I paid sales tax at that time, meaning I'll have to pay sales tax again to Texas, but that's a whole different story. The only thing I can hope to hang my hat on is the car being registered as a 1984 Homebuilt on the New York title, and it Texas requires me to surrender that title to them in order to title it in texas, all I will have is a photocopy of the old confiscated New York title.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

The New York title that I hold was issued in March of 2007, whuch is when I bought the car as a long ago finished car. I do not have the previous owners title, and New York is unable to provide that as well as proof that I paid sales tax at that time, meaning I'll have to pay sales tax again to Texas, but that's a whole different story. The only thing I can hope to hang my hat on is the car being registered as a 1984 Homebuilt on the New York title, and it Texas requires me to surrender that title to them in order to title it in texas, all I will have is a photocopy of the old confiscated New York title.

Do you have a NY state issued VIN?
If so, then Texas will take it without blinking an eye.


Bill S.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Do you have a NY state issued VIN?
If so, then Texas will take it without blinking an eye.


Bill S.

I do Bill. I have the dreaded yellow NYS sticker which some Bozo at time of titleing decided should go on top if the cowl right behind the area where the window stickers go. Not sure what the hell he was thinking when he did that but too late now, it's there.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I do Bill. I have the dreaded yellow NYS sticker which some Bozo at time of titleing decided should go on top if the cowl right behind the area where the window stickers go. Not sure what the hell he was thinking when he did that but too late now, it's there.

Then you should have a fairly easy time with your retitle project.

I have a Contemporary Cobra with the same sticker under the brake/clutch reservoirs

Bill S.

[cycleguy55]

It's the importing country regulations you need to deal with, not the exporting country.

Speaking strictly from the Canadian perspective, titles are irrelevant. What's needed is a 'Bill of Sale' and proof the vehicle was completed and registered / licensed no less than 15 years prior to importation into Canada.

In my case we had a bit of difficulty, in that the car had been titled first in Michigan in 1991, then moved to Alabama. It was then sold and moved to Connecticut in 2004, where it was re-titled. It was then titled again in Connecticut before I bought it. Each time the previous title was surrendered, so there was no title showing its original date of completion / registration / licensing. Compounding the problem is that Michigan purges its records after 10 years.

Thankfully the date the car was registered in Michigan is embedded in the state-issued VIN. That, and a letter of interpretation from the Michigan Secretary of State cleared things up. Well, after we sorted out that "MI" in the VIN wasn't "M1". It turns out "M1" stands for Malta, which would have meant 6.25% duty would have had to be paid on the car, whereas "MI" (Michigan) was duty-free due to NAFTA.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

It's the importing country regulations you need to deal with, not the exporting country.

Speaking strictly from the Canadian perspective, titles are irrelevant. What's needed is a 'Bill of Sale' and proof the vehicle was completed and registered / licensed no less than 15 years prior to importation into Canada.

In my case we had a bit of difficulty, in that the car had been titled first in Michigan in 1991, then moved to Alabama. It was then sold and moved to Connecticut in 2004, where it was re-titled. It was then titled again in Connecticut before I bought it. Each time the previous title was surrendered, so there was no title showing its original date of completion / registration / licensing. Compounding the problem is that Michigan purges its records after 10 years.

Thankfully the date the car was registered in Michigan is embedded in the state-issued VIN. That, and a letter of interpretation from the Michigan Secretary of State cleared things up. Well, after we sorted out that "MI" in the VIN wasn't "M1". It turns out "M1" stands for Malta, which would have meant 6.25% duty would have had to be paid on the car, whereas "MI" (Michigan) was duty-free due to NAFTA.

Hmmm, that's interesting. I wonder is NY has any such date coding in their issued VIN numbers. My VIN starts with NY followed by a 5 digit number. None of the numbers in the state issued VIN are remotely close to 84, the year in which the car is titled. One thing that might be helpful is that the title is issued in March of 2007, and it is clearly stamped in the odometer reading spot "EXEMPT - VEHICLE OVER 10 YEARS OLD." That would date the vehicle to a minimum of 1997, which today would make it a minimum of 23 years old. I wonder if that would hold up as proof of age when selling into one of those countries that require a vehicle to be over 20 years old? Then there is still the process of trying to retain a copy of the NY title rather than having Texas take it away when I title it here, as this is the only proof I have that this exemption due to age of the car exists.

[ALF]

I speak for Switzerland
In 99% of the cases a Cobra (not CSX2000, CSX3000 with full registry history) is critically considered and in the first step classified as a later replica with "adapted" papers.
You can go with all documents to the registration and after that it can be that it does not go further, because nobody wants to make a decision, because in the past too many allegedly old Cobras were registered.
In Switzerland, this is a delicate issue for years and I know Cobras that "only" stand in the garden.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Hmmm, that's interesting. I wonder is NY has any such date coding in their issued VIN numbers. My VIN starts with NY followed by a 5 digit number. None of the numbers in the state issued VIN are remotely close to 84, the year in which the car is titled. One thing that might be helpful is that the title is issued in March of 2007, and it is clearly stamped in the odometer reading spot "EXEMPT - VEHICLE OVER 10 YEARS OLD." That would date the vehicle to a minimum of 1997, which today would make it a minimum of 23 years old. I wonder if that would hold up as proof of age when selling into one of those countries that require a vehicle to be over 20 years old? Then there is still the process of trying to retain a copy of the NY title rather than having Texas take it away when I title it here, as this is the only proof I have that this exemption due to age of the car exists.

Perhaps stating the obvious, but I think the 'take away' is determining and satisfying the criteria necessary to satisfy those responsible for managing the importing process. That varies by country and the onus is generally on the importer (purchaser?) to satisfy their authorities.

[strictlypersonl]

Has anyone contacted Peter Bayer (Nisonger) formerly of Contemporary to see whether he retains records of their kits?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by strictlypersonl

Has anyone contacted Peter Bayer (Nisonger) formerly of Contemporary to see whether he retains records of their kits?

As part of the sale, all records went to Burtis. When they went under, those records were lost to the world.....Unless of course Burtis kept them (doubtful) somewhere besides their shop, but I have not heard of anyone able to glean information from them.

Bill S.

[86Sebring]

Hey Doug, sounds like the cobra is almost or is already on the street, well it's about time, it took what, about 15 years, ha
How about a driving video?
Not that it helps you, but I recently sold a Unique cobra, that was built in 91 to Europe. The buyer was able to get in touch with the Unique factory and obtain a copy of the original bill of sale. That apparently did the trick.

good luck

[767Jockey]

It's in the interior shop as we speak. I went to see it today and it's just about done, although interior shops are like paint shops - never try to guess when it'll be done. You missed the time period by a few months. It's been going on since March of 2007, it'll be 15 years in March. This has been a long strange trip, that's for sure. I wish solving this problem was as simple as callling the company that manufactured the car, but it's a Contemporary and the company is long, long gone. Hope all is well with you!

[767Jockey]

I just found some old notes from way back when I bought this car. It contains the numbers from the frame stampings and the body number sticker. The thread I just started on this find is here:

Contemporary guru's, what do these numbers on the frame and body signify?

What do you guys think? Can this help at all with the foreign sale issue?

[750hp]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

It's the importing country regulations you need to deal with, not the exporting country.
Speaking strictly from the Canadian perspective, titles are irrelevant. What's needed is a 'Bill of Sale' and proof the vehicle was completed and registered / licensed no less than 15 years prior to importation into Canada.

Speaking from the Australian perspective, it’s the same as Brian spelt out for Canada except we need to show proof of first registration 30 years prior to submitting the import forms for approval.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by 750hp

Speaking from the Australian perspective, it’s the same as Brian spelt out for Canada except we need to show proof of first registration 30 years prior to submitting the import forms for approval.

We in Australia, like the US, have different regulations from state to state for importing and registering overseas sourced cars.
I do agree with 750hp.... date of first registration is most important, even though the date that's 'attached' to the original kit or roller might be some years previous to the car's first registration.
Good idea though, that you're thinking ahead

Cheers!
Glen