A Cobra Valuation question

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

In general narrow is a lower production number offering so ... Yup
Still its the car itself nothing to do with other cars. That is how Cobra's are judged.

Thanks, again. My takeaway from your response is that wide hip Cobras are preferred over narrow hip Cobras.

[1985 CCX]

No, its a preference however fewer narrow hips means typically more prized as long as they are still narrow hipped.

[mrmustang]

Disclaimer: The following is just my two cents on the subject, if you like it, great, if you don't, sorry, but this is a public "DISCUSSION" forum and you post here, of your own free will, we did not force you to do so.

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

The car is CSX3145. My questions aren't really specific to this car or the loss of use matter, I just want to know, in general, are raced Cobras the only ones of historical significance and whether 289s are more desirable than 427s (because they were raced vs. 427s which were not?) Thank you, Bill.

The problem with CSX3145 is that it was never "professionally raced", so there is no vintage records of logbooks for the car from any racing organizations. As such, then yes, whatever racing the car may have done, is inconsequential to the value of the car. Historical documents, from racing organizations may negate my statement, but once again, without them, it's just folk lore for the car and it's previous ownership chain. In other words, value is set at time of ownership being changed. In the 70's, the value was very little, but a value just the same was set between a seller, and a buyer. As time goes by, this same time related value, between buyer and seller, is once again set. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now, my thoughts on the issues at hand (remembering, only the lawyers, and folks like yourself, will be paid, no matter how the courts find at the end of the suit) in regards to the legal wrangling currently going on, and yes, I know you did not ask, but I'm putting it out there just the same:

As far as ownership history goes, the "swap" as noted in the history is the deciding factor, what was swapped for, at that time, a non operable vehicle that was not worth what it is today? Was it an equitable swap "at that time". Did Dennis not bother to title it in his name because it was just a project car at that time? There are many here who have done the same, which muddies the waters even further. Yet, if the title to the car, was signed by Dennis's brother, who was then swapping the car to Dennis for whatever the other side of the equation was, then Dennis's brother holds no rights to the car, whether it was retitled or not. So, when Dennis sold the car in 1989, the sales was between Dennis and the other party, with his brother being owned nothing else, as he had already received his compensation in the earlier transaction.

Bill S.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

Thanks, again. My takeaway from your response is that wide hip Cobras are preferred over narrow hip Cobras.

When Cobras went out of production, there was a period of time during which they were simply regarded as used sports cars. They were a bit pricey compared to regular sports cars of similar vintage, but that was only because they were relatively expensive when new. As the muscle car craze and horsepower wars began to peak in the late '60's and early '70's, the raw performance potential of the Cobras brought them back into the limelight, and the baddest of them all was the iconic 427SC with its signature wide flares, huge sidepipes, roll bar and of course - the 427 Side oiler engine.

The vast majority of Cobras - both 289 and 427 - were sold as street cars and though a 289 was still no slouch performance wise, it was the 427's that became the top dog Cobra to own. Owners of narrow hipped 427 street roadsters wanting their car to emulate the fire breathing SC cars added the flares, bars and pipes. The pedigree of the racing 289's was not really a big thing then because - remember, many of them were either still being raced by privateers or they were balled-up, beat-up wrecks with little perceived value.

Fast forward to the post muscle car era and the stratospheric auction prices being commanded by LS6 Chevelles, Fairlane Thunderbolts, Hemi Cuda convertibles and of course - Cobras. The replica industry was also churning out 427SC replicas and the old V8 powered Shelby roadsters were suddenly among the most sought-after collector cars on the planet. As the collector craze grew and matured, traits like model rarity, originality and racing pedigree became value adders and the racing history of the once (relatively) lowly 289's brought them into the limelight.

So (very) generally speaking today in values determined largely by hammer prices at auction, the low production and iconic 427SC Cobras are still top dollar cars but an unmolested narrow hip 427 Roadster will be worth more than one with added on SC flares and regalia - even if those modifications were done back in the '60's by an original owner. A street 427/428 car will outbid a street 289 unless of course we're talking about Carroll Shelby's personal car or the 289 driven on TV by Honey West. And let's not even get into the Daytona Coupes or the ultra collectibles like the 427 Super Snake.

So to address the quoted statement; to the average car nut - yes - the wide hip 427 Cobras with roll bar and side pipes are the quintessential and most desirable version of the Cobra while classic sports car connoisseurs might gravitate to the more svelte and subtle narrow hip 427 street or the 289 roadster. Collectors and investors - who largely drive real world auction values - as others here have posted, look at individual cars and price them based on the rarity and pedigree factors mentioned above. In a nutshell - the answer is "It depends."

[DanEC]

When you start talking about narrow hip 427 cars you are basically only talking about street roadsters with smooth hoods, no roll bar, no sidepipes and loop bumpers. Competition and S/C cars did not have a narrow hip version. Those pursuing a street roadster version purposely probably would pay a slight premium for one as they were few in number, most believe that with the original Sunburst wheels the narrow hip cars looks better than the half-filled wide hip cars. But in general there is undoubtedly more collector interest in the S/C models and many street roadster models were converted over with some or most of the S/C features over the years.

[Blue66]

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

What is your feeling about wide being a more desirable body than narrow? Preference-wise? Value-wise?

Thank you for your help, @blue66.

Just personal opinion. Even buying one today I'd pass. Everyone has opinions

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Disclaimer: The following is just my two cents on the subject, if you like it, great, if you don't, sorry, but this is a public "DISCUSSION" forum and you post here, of your own free will, we did not force you to do so.



The problem with CSX3145 is that it was never "professionally raced", so there is no vintage records of logbooks for the car from any racing organizations. As such, then yes, whatever racing the car may have done, is inconsequential to the value of the car. Historical documents, from racing organizations may negate my statement, but once again, without them, it's just folk lore for the car and it's previous ownership chain. In other words, value is set at time of ownership being changed. In the 70's, the value was very little, but a value just the same was set between a seller, and a buyer. As time goes by, this same time related value, between buyer and seller, is once again set. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now, my thoughts on the issues at hand (remembering, only the lawyers, and folks like yourself, will be paid, no matter how the courts find at the end of the suit) in regards to the legal wrangling currently going on, and yes, I know you did not ask, but I'm putting it out there just the same:

As far as ownership history goes, the "swap" as noted in the history is the deciding factor, what was swapped for, at that time, a non operable vehicle that was not worth what it is today? Was it an equitable swap "at that time". Did Dennis not bother to title it in his name because it was just a project car at that time? There are many here who have done the same, which muddies the waters even further. Yet, if the title to the car, was signed by Dennis's brother, who was then swapping the car to Dennis for whatever the other side of the equation was, then Dennis's brother holds no rights to the car, whether it was retitled or not. So, when Dennis sold the car in 1989, the sales was between Dennis and the other party, with his brother being owned nothing else, as he had already received his compensation in the earlier transaction.

Bill S.

Thank you, Bill. The courts will eventually decide on the ownership issue. My job is to try to determine Loss of Use which is the amount necessary to rent a similar vehicle for the amount of time the owner was without the car. . There isn't any possibility of actually renting a Cobra so, thus far, I am working on a comparable dollar amount basis which led me to a million-dollar Bugatti that was available to rent. And, to complicate matters, as @Buzz pointed out in the post that followed yours, values for CSX 3145 would have varied over the years, work has been done on the car., other intangibles...my research shows that a raced car would increase, rather than decrease the value of a Cobra - but not by much - and that the 289s do not have a solid reputation for being more valuable. These things were alleged by the "expert" working for the adverse party so I came here to run them down. Thank you.

[767Jockey]

I'm guessing I'm the only one who can't figure out what the whole issue and point is here?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I'm guessing I'm the only one who can't figure out what the whole issue and point is here?

1) The insured picks a high number for loss of use.
2) The insurance carrier picks a low number.
3) Both sides hire prostitutes to opine on the value.
4) Both sides depose the other side's prostitute and run up billable hours.
5) The carrier tries to keep the case from going to a jury. Juries hate insurance carriers.
6) If the carrier can't keep the case out of the hands of a jury, they will likely settle for a higher number.
7) If they can keep the case away from a jury they will settle, but for less.
8) If the insured is unreasonable, the case will not settle.

All numbers are just made up by whatever side you're on. That's how the game is played.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

Thank you, Bill. The courts will eventually decide on the ownership issue. My job is to try to determine Loss of Use which is the amount necessary to rent a similar vehicle for the amount of time the owner was without the car. .

What timeline (IE: what year) is the start of "the time without the car" ?

Again, no documented or historically significant race history on the car, so no added value in that regard.

Bill S.

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by patrickt

1) The insured picks a high number for loss of use.
2) The insurance carrier picks a low number.
3) Both sides hire prostitutes to opine on the value.
4) Both sides depose the other side's prostitute and run up billable hours.
5) The carrier tries to keep the case from going to a jury. Juries hate insurance carriers.
6) If the carrier can't keep the case out of the hands of a jury, they will likely settle for a higher number.
7) If they can keep the case away from a jury they will settle, but for less.
8) If the insured is unreasonable, the case will not settle.

All numbers are just made up by whatever side you're on. That's how the game is played.

1) The insured picks a high number for loss of use. THAT IS NOT TRUE IN OUR CASE. I AM SEEKING FACTUAL INFORMATION, OR, AT LEAST, VALID ANECDOTAL INFORMATION.
2) The insurance carrier picks a low number. THIS IS TYPICAL BUT NOT A HARD AND FAST RULE OF THUMB.
3) Both sides hire prostitutes to opine on the value. I READ THIS AS YOUR BEING FAMILIAR WITH PROSTITUTES SO YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THEIR SERVICES ARE QUICKLY RENDERED. I OUR JOB IS TO RESEARCH AND THE AMOUNT OF TIME I HAVE SPENT JUST IN THIS ONE FORUM SHOULD AT LEAST CONVINCE EVEN AN A DOPE WHO CONTRIBUTES NOTHING THAT MY ACTIONS CANNOT BE COMPARED TO PROSTITUTION.
4) Both sides depose the other side's prostitute and run up billable hours. THE LEGAL SYSTEM WORKS THAT WAY. ON THAT NOTE, WE CHARGE NO ADDITIONAL FEES TO DO ALL OF THIS RESEARCH. IT IS JUST CALLED TRYING TO DO THE BEST JOB THAT WE CAN.
5) The carrier tries to keep the case from going to a jury. Juries hate insurance carriers. SOMETIMES INSURERS DON'T LIKE TO SETTLE UNTIL THEY REACH THE COURTHOUSE STEPS.
6) If the carrier can't keep the case out of the hands of a jury, they will likely settle for a higher number. ONLY IF THE THIS ATTORNEY WHACKS THEM WITH SOMETHING OF SUBSTANCE. I SEE "EXPERTS" ALL THE TIME WHOSE ONLY METHODOLOGY IS "BASED ON THEIR OPINIONS GAINED DURING THEIR 30 YEARS OF APPRAISING THINS - NOT MUCH ELSE. IN FACT, I AM ABOUT TO READ THE DEPOSITION GIVEN BY THE COBRA "EXPERT". MAYBE IT WAS YOU?
7) If they can keep the case away from a jury they will settle, but for less. YOU ALREADY SAID THAT.
8) If the insured is unreasonable, the case will not settle. ALSO, REMAINS TO BE SEEN BUT PART AND PARCEL OF THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

All numbers are just made up by whatever side you're on. That's how the game is played. NO, IT'S NOT COOL, AS YOU PUT IT, TO MAKE UP NUM BERS IN ORDER TO SCREW SOMEONE, BUILD UP YOUR REPUTATION, GET BONUSES, CLOG UP THE COURTS, ETC. HAVE ANYTHING HELPFUL TO CONTRIBUTE? IF NOT, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

What timeline (IE: what year) is the start of "the time without the car" ?

Again, no documented or historically significant race history on the car, so no added value in that regard.

Bill S.

The car in question was stored in a barn in 1980. The owners, XXXX XXXX asked XXXX’ brother, XXXX, to store the car at his property in XXXX. In 2018, after Mr. XXXX passing, Mrs. XXXX learned that XXXX sold the car without a title which is in her possession and without her knowledge.

[Unique427]

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

The car in question was stored in a barn in 1980. The owners, XXXX XXXX asked XXXX’ brother, XXXX, to store the car at his property in XXXX. In 2018, after Mr. XXXX passing, Mrs. XXXX learned that XXXX sold the car without a title which is in her possession and without her knowledge.

Above is one of the reasons a 36 month surty bond
is required to receive a title in some states.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by patrickt

1) The insured picks a high number for loss of use.
2) The insurance carrier picks a low number.
3) Both sides hire prostitutes to opine on the value.
4) Both sides depose the other side's prostitute and run up billable hours.
5) The carrier tries to keep the case from going to a jury. Juries hate insurance carriers.
6) If the carrier can't keep the case out of the hands of a jury, they will likely settle for a higher number.
7) If they can keep the case away from a jury they will settle, but for less.
8) If the insured is unreasonable, the case will not settle.

All numbers are just made up by whatever side you're on. That's how the game is played.

Elegant, to the point and spot on, Patrick — thanks.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by eschaider

Elegant, to the point and spot on, Patrick — thanks.

... and you might be thinking that you would lead off your cross with something like "isn't it true you got your information from a website full of old men with fake Cobras, most of whom thought you were a moron?"

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by patrickt

... and you might be thinking that you would lead off your cross with something like "isn't it true you got your information from a website full of old men with fake Cobras, most of whom thought you were a moron?"

This is what you think of those who participate in the Club Cobra forum? I have found great knowledge here.

And, someone is telling you that idiotic, completely unnecessary post of yours was "spot-on"?

In my LOU report, in my list of those with whom I researched, I was proud to list Club Cobra among them.

Again, why are you sliming up my thread @patrickt?

[eschaider]

StLucie,

You need to cool your jets a bit.

The commentary was specific to lawyers, plaintiffs, court proceedings and the impact of various decisions the participants make. It was both spot on and quite insightful from a respected forum member whose credentials certainly say he should know ...

Did I mention it was entertaining?

[twobjshelbys]

Loss of use is measurable only if there is use to be lost. Do garage queens and museum pieces - static displays - have use that can be measurably lost?

Sure, if I have a Chevy and it gets whacked and sits in a body shop I can measure loss of use by how long I had a rental car.

But here we seem to have something that was sold by someone that may or may not have had legal right to do so and the legal title was not available, and now someone who has possession of that title is intervening.

How can the title holder claim loss of use for something they didn't even know they had???

This is starting to sound like the story of Phil Spector's Coupe.

PS. I still can't rationalize that a supposed expert (who ought to know all of this) is asking these questions in a public forum. Shouldn't you know this stuff already? I'd be looking for an expert who did. ANd if I were on the other side I'd be using that maybe not such an expert collecting valuations from people who are even less experts. (Sorry, you're all thinking this but I'll just throw it out on the floor. And I suspect there a few people who are such experts and may be involved behind the scenes already.)

I'll state that the loss of use valuation is $42.

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Loss of use is measurable only if there is use to be lost. Do garage queens and museum pieces - static displays - have use that can be measurably lost?

It is sometimes only your own appreciation of your Cobra, its history, the joy of sitting in it, bragging rights, etc. that constitute Loss of Use, not just losing your commuter car or work truck.

If you owned a similar car and it was stolen, even though you seldom drove it, you have suffered loss of use.

That is not just one man's opinion but I get where you are coming from. Losing a trophy car may be a narrow interpretation of Loss of Use but legit, nonetheless.

Ownership of the car and L<oss of Use will be decided in the courts. I just came here to determine whether the 289 could be more valuable - in general - than the 427 and whether the wide hip Cobras are (and were) worth more to collectors. Previous posters have shed light on this.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

The car in question was stored in a barn in 1980. The owners, XXXX XXXX asked XXXX’ brother, XXXX, to store the car at his property in XXXX. In 2018, after Mr. XXXX passing, Mrs. XXXX learned that XXXX sold the car without a title which is in her possession and without her knowledge.

Mrs XXXX may have a copy of the cars title, but perhaps Mr XXXX had requested a duplicate title for the car, having not been able to find the original at the time of "trade" between Mr XXXX and his brother. The DMV would need to dig deep in to their archives in an attempt to find whether a duplicate title was ever requested.

Now, where I find a slight hiccup in Mrs XXXX assertion of "loss of use", since the car was inoperable, there was no use at that time, and even if there was, Mr XXXX's brother could have easily charged $100 or more a month in storage fees between 1980 and 2018. Say $100-$500 a month is the going rate for indoor storage of an inoperable "collector car", times that by 38 years, and your storage costs are quite costly . As an inoperable car, with no meaningful racing history, stored correctly or not, but now needing $400,000+ in restoration, strictly from sitting unused for 38 years.....Now you want to speak about value, or value due to loss of use.......Well, I think you get where I'm going with this..

In closing, as they say, there are three sides to a story, his story, her story, and the truth............

I'll leave it at that, for now.

Bill S.