Question? Highest speed recorded in a race

[Jamo]

Yep--damn thing was probably reading slow...

[SCOBRAC]

No Aero? my front end starts to float at 140. maybe fiberflass is lighter than aluminum after all.

[Excaliber]

Working the numbers in my mind (rear ratio, torque of a BB, aero concerns, distance to time, etc.) I can see 198 (on 1965 tires, how scary)! No way it would take TWO or even ONE lap to find out what the Cobra would "top out" at. The awesome torque of a BB combined with the light weight of the Cobra would bring top end to SWIFT conclusion!

The NASCAR boys ARE a whole different equation. Higher gears, NOT as much "usable" torque, no doubt two laps required to establish "top end". I think Bill Elliot STILL holds the record at 234 mph, by the way (AVERAGE)! I saw the replay. Almost NO down force, the car dancing in the corners, a man on the EDGE!

198? Yeah, the radar gun was OFF, it was reading SLOW! ha ha,

Ernie

[Robert Evans]

By making a comment such as "Remington is an old disgruntled ex-employee of Shelby who wasn't around to see when Smith performed his 198mph run" is ridiculous.

To Bony and Jamo, with all due respect to the 60+ year old bail-bondsman from Fresno, I would like to see some records of this accomplishment backed up somewhere in proof, not just an unsubstantiated claim that hasn't been challenged in over 30 years.

Until then, I think I'll put my money on the guy whom you said was proud of his babies, as you put it; the 289's, the FIA's and the Coupes. (Didn't the Coupes win a World Championship or something?)

But don't forget Phil Remington's other accomplishments, too:


He took a horribly unreliable and ill-handling mid-engine Ford GT that Ford FAV tried to develop in 1963/64 and made it a race winner in less than 6 months, something that all the Ford engineers and comnputers couldn't do.

He gave to Ford and Shelby the new LeMans winning MKII GT Ford. (1,2,3 in 1966, along with wins at Sebring and Daytona)

He took a horribly unsafe and ill-designed car from Ford called the J-car, which Miles was killed in, and in one weekend re-designed into the LeMans winning Ford MK IV. Remington was the aero package designer of that car.

He helped design and build the 1972 Indy winning Eagle for Bobby Unser, not to mention all the other successful Eagle Champ cars. Then there was a USAC National Championship in 1978 with cars under his jurisdiction. 21 of the 33 cars on the 1973 INDY 500 grid were AAR Eagles, which Remington was the major factor in creating.

He has designed and built winning cars for CanAm, which Dennis Hulme and Dan Gurney drove

He built winning cars for Nascar for Holman-Moody.

He was responsible for designing and building the first Toyota GTU and GTO cars for AAR, which all won respective IMSA championships.

He was responsible for designing and building the record holding IMSA Toyota GTP Eagle which holds the record for most consecutive wins at 17. Show me any other manufacturer who can claim that kind of record in high-level, prototype racing!

He was responsible for designing and building many of the CART Champ cars which were run out of AAR during the 1990's, and is very accomplished at carbon fiber manufacturing.

All told, there have been 8 championships, 78 overall victories with AAR in series ranging from Indy to Daytona (not including all the races and championships won with Shelby and Reventlow), and 83 pole positions.

AAR's windtunnel is the responsibility of Phil Remington, as is every other facet of operations at Gurney's AAR. Remington is Vice President and Chief engineer for the last 32+ years.
Many of the current crop of CART Champ car engineers and builders grew up in the shops of Gurney's AAR; guess who their tutor was? The last name starts with an "R".

Famous drivers such as Phil Hill, Dennis Hulme, Bob Bondurant, Raul Boesel, Geoff Brabham, Wally Dallenbach, Richie Ginther, Juan Fangio II, James Hunt, Joe Leonard, Pete Halsmer, Bruce McLaren, AJ Foyt, Lloyd Ruby, Ken Miles, Tom Sneva, Al Unser, Al Unser Jr., and PJ Jones have all raced and won in cars directly related back to Phil Remington.

Don't forget cars raced in the Formula Atlantic, Formula A, Formula 5000, and Formula Ford series. And yes, Phil has had his signature on a couple of 427 Cobras in his day.

So,...when I'm walking thru the pit area of a SAAC event with a man holding these types of accomplishments and credentials, and he tells me that he seriously doubts that a 427 Cobra ran 198mph at Daytona, I think I'll believe him until someone proves him wrong.


Any takers with some facts other than just claims?.....

[Richard Hudgins]

OK Folks,

I just have to chime in here. I do not have a clue if Dick Smith's car went 198 or not.

But, I can tell you that in the IMSA Paul Revere 250 in 1975, I drove a ex-Gene Felton 68 bodied Camaro with a 454 Hilborn injected engine which ran like Mr. Fix-it says all mechanical injection motors run.

(It did not look like a Camaro at all, matter of fact Charlie * forgot his last name, but he was the head tech guy for IMSA, told us that the car was the worst prepared car he had ever seen relative to the rules and had to be illegal. We were told to fix it or never come back.)

Trap speed entering turn three of the oval was 236.

The windshield broke from the aero load on my third practice lap.

Then my co-driver, Kevin Clower, went out in the warm-up session and broke the gearbox. The old M22's were pretty good, but not invincible. We could not fit a new unit in time for the race, therefore we got to watch, not race.

John Greenwood (I think I have this name correct, He is of Corvette fame, clocked in at over 245 in the same race.)

Hell. Group 44 TR-4's were clocked at 144.


I know, I know, everyone is going to think this is just pure bull****. But remember, there is a reason that the chicane was put in the back straight. If the track configuration was the same today as it was then, you would see some really scary speeds. As we used almost the whole of the oval without the chicane, there was plenty of time to get to speed.




Therefore, maybe a old cobra could have gone 198.

[Jamo]

Bob

First--when and where have I ever spoken about Mr. Remington in those terms? I happen to hold the gentleman in high esteem for his accomplishments, many of which you listed but as we both know could fill a book. What--you think you own personal rights to the guy? Just what the hell was that? If the comments were someone elses, then let me know--and know that I write for myself and no other and I'll be damned if I'll be responsible for what someone else writes.

Secondly--Who are you to throw Mr. Remington into your own personal discussions as if you speak for him? According to your post, he made an off-handed remark. All of a sudden it's "do not doubt the word of Rem?"

You're way off base here. For all the love of history you have about these cars--which I for one have always given you a big "thank you" for sharing with us here, I've never seen you attack another historical figure's accomplishments with so little, and with so much hostility.

Why not call Dick and ask him about it? It's not really Smith vs. Rem, so you don't have to fear the answer--just find out for yourself before you belittle somone else's accomplishments. BTW, Dick's accomplishments do not need to be proven for your personal comfort--you don't believe what he did--disprove it, but don't drag Remington in on it--or was he there?

And another BTW--Dick is an attorney who went into the bonding business because it allows more free time for other interests--such as owning and using his Cobra as well as other things. Excellent pilot as well--he used to fly one of my client's Commanders on occasion (that's where I met him). What's his age got to do with it? This is YOU attacking a really nice guy who won several championships racing a Cobra in the 60s.

Mr. Remington is too much of a gentleman to be used for your own benefit. In this instance--shame on you.

[Specialk]

The Shelby Spec racers were hitting 165mph at the middle of the straightway at California Speedway after coming out of the infield road course. With the chicane at the end of the straightway, the drivers really had to lay on the brakes to slow it down. They may have gone faster with more gear and no chicane.

I believe it may be possible for Mr. Smith to have run 198mph.

[Robert Evans]

Jamo,
In my first paragraph, I never said that you made those remarks about Remington, these people did:

Bonyhadi: "Maybe Remington needs to take some more Ginko, or is that is secret part of the Club Cranky
barbeque sauce that you guys will be indulging in?? Some of these posts get to be damn
mean, and nobody is to big to be chopped down a couple of inches!!"

Turk:
" Should we have someone ask CS himself, to see what the truth is, instead of disgruntled ex employees?"

Now, I never said that you made those comments, but I did ask you to show me proof, not the fact that no one has ever challenged his claim. Prove it to me and I will be a believer. I'm also asking you why you don't question those two comments made by Bony and Turk.

What would you like me to do about comments made by Remington? Ignore them because it ruffles your feathers about Smith? You won't allow me to post a comment he made, and you won't allow me to post his and my own opinion even after speaking with him once again this afternoon about this subject? Who am I to question his comments about the claim of 198mph? I wrote them as I heard them, and they happen to agree with others who oppose yours.

No, I do not speak for him and never will. Can't figure out where you get that from. Are you speaking for Smith by backing his claims? However, your 20 year friendship and an unsubstantiated claim do not over-ride an opinion made by someone who I believe has the authority and knowledge to make a statement such as: "Are they serious? 198mph at Daytona? No way. Not even close". I never said "Do not doubt the word of Rem", as you put it. I just gave you the credentials by which I make my judgement call, which you may or may not have known about.

Speak to Mr. Smith myself? I have already done that...twice. I have never discounted Dick Smith's abilities, just the claims that he went 198mph. We have proof the he won some championships, but I have yet to see proof about the speed. When and where did I attack Dick Smith?....because I doubt his claim and that upsets you? If I put my betting money on someone with some hefty credentials over a so-far un-proven claim, that makes you think that I have attacked Smith with so much hostility, correct? I think you're getting a little defensive here.

[Turk]

I think the crocks of this all is not whether Dick Smith went 198 mph or he didn't. It is not if Bony is telling the truth. It is not that many others in this thread have calculated and speculated that it could be done.

I think the heart of this little tiff, is quoting Phil Remington on every occasion as the gospel on anything and everything Cobra.
If Phil Remington says it happened then it happened. if he says it didn't it couldn't!

Sure he remembers the glory of small blocks as they suit some. I wonder if his position on SB vs. BB was different if he would be quoted in here as often as he is.

I listened to the man at the Knott's a couple of years ago. The entire event turned into a SB orgy, with the constant prodding from the interviewer.

I don't know either men. Apperantly no one here can lay the claim to knowing both.
So why then does the word of one trump the other?


TURK

[RACER X #99]

If we beleive everything we hear or read then Excalibers' claim of 234 by Bill Elliott could become a fact. Bill Elliott actually holds the all time Nascar Winston Cup qualifing record of 212 mph at Tallegega speedway.
Very easy to see how a myth gets started.

[ac andy]

After reading all of the posts on this thread with great interest, it seems to me that a lot of guys are forgetting the reason that they built their own cobra in the first place. I personally think that the myths, facts, stories and results are what makes up the legend of the A.C. Cobra/Shelby Cobra story and that their unbelievable performance and looks is what captured the imaginations of many thousands of boy racers like myself who were not even alive when these cars were being hurled around the great race tracks of America and the world. Just accept and be greatful that you guys are in the right part of the world to even see these legends of the past (Smith, Shelby, Remington and others) and quit the arguement which sounds like the old "my dad has a bigger D#CK than your dad ", and enjoy your cars and awesome events that i jealously read about every time i log on!


P.S. No offence intended to anyone at all and if i ever get my cobra anywhere near that mark of 198, you guys will be the first to know!!!!!!!!!!!

[John McMahon]

Jeez...

I don't think anyone is questioning Dick Smith's ability here. Most folks know he is a damn fine driver.

I think the issue boils down to "Aerodynamic Possibilities" in the given day and age.....Was it possible?????

Most folks I know that have driven a Cobra at speed...hit an aerodynamic wall somewhere between 150 and 160 MPH. The car gets light and skittish and does not handle very well.

So maybe someone can ask Dick Smith (since there are two CC members that seem to communicate with him) about this acheivement.

[Faro]

Don't know about the top speed, but I did see an auto cross event in 1968 in Calif. I watched a Cobra from Manteca Ford get rolled of the trailer then make a single lap around the course.
His warm up lap beat the corvetts and all others by thee full seconds. He then put the car back on the trailer and waited for his trophy. The field was pretty competive if the Cobra had not came to the race.

[Robert Evans]

Turk,
I will not allow ANYONE to drag Remington's name through the mud, even you as a moderator of this forum, so I have removed all comments previously made by me with regard to him.

What started out to be a comment made by an ex-disgruntled shelby employee, as you put it, to me at a SAAC event has turned into a mud slinging contest. All of my remarks backing up my questioning of that 198mph claim have been removed to protect him. I'm also hoping that Dick Smith's name will be kept out of this as well.

I appologize that the Knott's dinner turned your stomach sour with comments made by my Remington and the "interviewer". Other than one humorous comment made by me, a small block orgy it was not, just a recount of the history of the racing successes at Shelby. I'm sorry it did not include Big Block Cobras. E-mail me your address and I will refund your expenses for the dinner.

Bony, Jamo: I NEVER questioned Smith's talents or abilities, just a claim for which I have heard no proof. Prove it with facts and I will become a believer.

This is my last post on this forum.

[Cal Metal]

Turk:

All the banter of 198 mph aside, I can, I think, attest to the recall of Phil Remington. As AW says in a piece that was written on the 35 anniversary of Ford winning Le Mans, "Phil Remington: Hidden Secret of the Fort GT Program", a reference is made to him "calling out the material specifications of all components he designed and fabricated for them (cars). He is a walking Smithsonian of the American racing scene"......

I have spent numerous hours in interview sessions with him and his memory is astounding. I think Bill Mcguire of Autoweek would attest to that, as well. On some of the history, I find him correcting me (I check my source) and he is invariably correct. If he doesn't remember, he will admit to that. The guy is a real treausre trouve of information, and I think his continuation at Gurney as Chief Engineer, at the tender age of 81, keeps his mind sharp and the creative juices flowing.

Many CC members would enjoy talking with him. Some of the antics at SAI--including a live Indian Cobra running around the shop--are really priceless. The kind of stuff that doesn't appear in the official race record.

Not that it has any bearing on the Dick Smith issue. Just his opinion, given his experience in having a difficult time getting the sleeker GT-40 Mk II & IV to run at that speed.

[Turk]

Mr. Evans,

I HAD NOT removed anything I posted , so that others and I can go back and read to see if I "dragged Remington's name through mud". I don't see HIS name being dragged through the mud any more than Mr. Smith's.....( I have removed a lot of my posts since)

Reference to me as "moderator" is a low blow. I suppose as a moderator I can't have any differing opinions.Where in my posts, did my position on the forum abuse that priveledge? I posted as "Turk" not as a moderator. I did not tamper, move,delete or edit your posts. That is all a moderator can do. I am not an editor , just a moderator.

I am sorry you edited your posts thus removing some of the basis for the ensuing debate which will deny the new readers of this thread the understanding -why the fuss-.

(after I have agreed to edit some of my outburst, I see that you restored yours) Same result and same effect. We barely made sense when both posts were in here. When you removed yours it made very little sense. Now I removed some of my posts and you restored yours, and the result is the same. Now this is not making a whole lot of sense to others.

No need to refund the expenses for the Knotts trip. There was a lot more to that visit and I enjoyed most of it. The interview was a small part of it. I didn't feel cheated at all.

I think my 3400 or so posts would indicate that I am not at all bashful, and certainly do not lack a sense of humor.I can certainly take a joke. Had it been "one humorous comment" I would have laughed along with the others. I laughed at the first 3 or 4. It was more than a passing comment.

You had many taping the event, maybe a replay is in order. It seemed like a endless assault, and not as humorous, if you were on the recieving end.

Do not feel cheated by your inability to respond because you said this was your "last post on this". I promise it is MINE.

Feel free to have the last word, I as a "moderator" owe you that much.


Cal,

I agree. The anecdotes and the stories were priceless. I would pay again to sit down and hear what the MAN has to say. A walking history library, in my book.


TURK

[Andy Dunn]

a funny thing happened to me today on the way to the pissing contest....a forum broke out

back to debate at hand

1. Race prepped cobras, and cobra cobras are two different things. Dick Smith raced for a living.
http://www.csxinfo.net/427cobra/spec...b/csx4180.html

2. Pulling numbers out of my butt cheeks, I would hazard to guess that Smith's car weighed 1500-1900lbs.

3. Mr Bruce has previously posted that the Cheetah was clocked at over 220 in the same time period.

4. Richard Hudgins has stated that the track was much easier to go fast on back then and had personally done 236mph in a big fat aerodynamic camero on the previous track configuration.

5. The cobra is not a total brick as many folks love to say. David Kirkham has stated in previous posts that one of their car owners took his car to Willow with all the equipment and tested it out to be in the 0.42-0.45 CDx range. Now take that same car and remove the window, add a front spoiler, tape up some ducts and block the front and you might get into the 0.38-0.40 range. I'm sure Dick Smith's team would do everything they could to minimize drag. The trouble the cobra and speed, is more about wanting to fly, than pushing wind. Most cobras become Cessna's at 165.

6. Gordon Levy has gone over 180 on a couple of occasions in a cobra.

7. I think it was Dominik in a previous post that worked the calculations backwards and determined you would need 700HP in a cobra to do 200. My guess is that race prepped engines had this.

because of this, I tend to believe that Dick Smith came close to 200mph, in a cobra, in the 60s.


Andy

[computerworks]

Originally posted by Andy Dunn

because of this, I tend to believe that Dick Smith came close to 200mph, in a cobra, in the 60s.
Andy

Andy....
I'm sure you meant to say:
"Mr.Smith, did it with a Cobra, in the Conservatory"


( ...c'mon, boys and girls....lighten up. )

[Jamo]

Gents

Don't know about what went on at Knotts--wasn't there, don't care.

Bob--removing posts to recreate history to fit your needs? YOU don't want his name dragged through the mud. Hey--you threw him into the mud pit while you sat back and tried to keep clean. YOU posted the second post in this thread. In that post, YOU brought up Remington and Smith. YOU are the one who started all of this--shamefully in Remington's name. YOU did attack Smith--"60+ year old bail bondsman" and calling him a liar. YOU screwed up, but you are not big (tall?) enough to admit it.

Look--enjoy your association with the gentleman. I'm happy that you have that opportunity. I'm glad you've got the BBQ coming up so that others enjoy him as much as you do. Wish you the best in that endeaver.

But stop name-dropping Remington every time you need to make a point. You demeane him when you do that. Removing your posts can't undo the harm you did here. Shame on you for putting him in here, and shame on you for trying to cover up your mistake--where's your character?

Cal--I don't doubt the gentleman's recall--no need to. He obviously offerred an opinion. That's all it was before Bob decided to try to make it something it wasn't. Remington isn't wrong here--Bob was.

Others--Dick Smith has been wearing 198 on the flanks of his Cobra since Bill France gave him the plaque noting his achievment--for over 30 years. YOU disprove it--Dick has nothing to prove to the likes of you. You folks jumped onto the bandwagon without any substance to your allegations against a real gentleman, a nice guy. You deserve sh!t--not sure you're worthy to drive a car that folks like Remington and Smith put their lives into so long ago.

Cranky--I think the reference to Elliot's speed was a top speed hit rather than the record for the average lap--but I don't know, and it's hardly relevant here, as I'm sure you'd agree.

Final note--I have no agenda here regarding past or present disputes. Not defending Smith or attacking Remington--just in case you folks can't read. My problem is with name droppers--using someone else's achievements to bolster one's own self-esteem. That is ugly whenever it happens--and caused two greats from our interest's past to be dragged through here.

[Excaliber]

I did say Bill Elliot ran 234 AVERAGE. PERHAPS I was wrong. Average or absolute top speed? NOW I have to look it up some how!

I DO know Elliot was NOT qualifying for a race. He WAS trying to set a new high speed oval track record. I'm NOT sure wether that record still holds, but I THINK it does.

Not trying to start a "legend", sorry now I even mentioned it!

A helluva a discussion going on here, who would have thought it would get this heated! Still, good stuff coming out with the bad.

Ernie