Which Cobra 427 or FIA, Kirk. or SAI ?

[computerworks]

Originally posted by Brett J. Bolte
The only thing that is slamming into the wall is this website.

Brett...
this website is doing just fine...
...it's this thread that needs a pit stop.

[REAL 1]

You spelled it wrong.

Its "Ad hominem".

And no. My arguments have nothing to do with being personal. They have everything to do with stating simple facts. The fact you don't like the facts is of no consequence. They remain the facts.

The facts are King. So I say..Rex non potest fallere nec falli.

[CSX 4039]

An Ad Hominem (not Hominum) is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, his circumstances, or his actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:


Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

[Jamo]

It's Cal's fault! He double-dared these folks to lose it.

[Great Asp]

Evan,

I forgot to respond to your $70K Superformance remark.

For $36,900.00 you get:

Rolling chassis (factory assembled, quality controlled)
Show quality paint job (PPG Global paint finish)
Real knock off wheels
Headers
Side pipes
8.8 full independent rear suspension
Full independent front suspension
Bilstein shocks
H&R springs
Fully electrically wired in the factory
Fully hydraulically assembled at the factory (S.S. lines too!)
Wilwood four piston caliper brakes
Soft Top
Tonneau cover
Side curtains
Wind wings
Heater
Carpeted
Moto-Lita wood steering wheel
Smith gages
Polished stainless steel roll bar
Tires

The fit and finish of these cars is in line with any of the best exotics in the world!

So all you need is a motor and tranny! I have met SPF owners that did the installation themselves, and have less than $45K in their cars!

The only way I think you can get to $70K is to put one of SAI's aluminum 427 motors in a SPF! By why give up the horsepower for more money?


Ur Buddy

Eric

[CSX 4039]

Ron- this kind of sheep dip pops up on many threads, nearly weekly. It's not just this tread, IMO.

[REAL 1]

Eric: I'm too tired to joust with you tonight my friend.

I can only slay one dragon a night.

We'll pick this up tomorrow but I have seen guys asking $70K for a SPF.




Brett: Unfortuately you are right. The problem is many (not all) here perceive facts stated about the CSX by their owners are in some way a "knock" to what others have or an attempt to "elevate" the CSX above what they have. Facts stated about our Cobras has nothing to do with a "superiority complex" by me or other CSX owners. We are just stating what the cars are factually and legally. Those that allege doing this is nothing more than us trying to be "superior" are the ones with a complex..an "inferiority complex" real or perceived. IMHO. This then begets Shelby bashing and CSX owner bashing.

Sigh.

Oh. Well.

[Excaliber]

Man some of you guys make it COMPLICATED! To me it's seems pretty simple: If Carol Shelby brought the "pieces" together it IS a Shelby Cobra, I don't care where the "pieces" came from! I don't even own a Cobra (at the present time) but I STILL get a little offended when people refer to the 4000 series as "replicas".

There ARE Shelby Cobras, they ARE real, they ARE listed in the SAAC. They are no different than what Shelby did in 1962. Take one "body", add one "engine" and bring it all together Shelbys way and what you have is a SHELBY. Better or worse than 1962 or 1966, makes no difference, it's still a Shelby! When he has passed on, it will NEVER be the same, THEN it will get complicated!

If you don't like the way he did it, buy something else, do it yourself, but call it a different name please because it AIN'T a Shelby! A Kirkham, as nice as it may be will NEVER be a Shelby unless Shelby supervises and authorizes the build.

Like Real 1 says, "Yes, it is REAL". If I had the money I would pay for the NAME, it's that important to me.

Ernie

[REAL 1]

Give that man a Cigar! Bingo!

Ernie: You are one of the few that get it. Its so simple. This isn't rocket science.

Thank you.

[CSX 4039]

Now, to make it REAL COMPLICATED 1:

...."Hell, I may even get in the replica business myself," Shelby continues. "That's something I've thought about for a long time. It could be real interesting. The goal would be a carbon-fiber 427 for $50,000. I'm not saying it can be done, but that would be the goal."

An 1800-pound Cobra replica built by Carroll Shelby his own self? An interesting piece indeed.....

excerpt from Shelby article "Unfinished Business", AutoWeek magazine, May 25, 1992, page 19.

[REAL 1]

I wish the CSX's were $50K. I'd have bought two! One alumium and one Carbon Fiber to race Argo 1.

[southernfriedcj]

Evan's got a Real 1, but it's just a Kirkham body, not a Kimmins!
Brett's is realer! Brett's is realer!

[southernfriedcj]

Originally posted by Brett J. Bolte


Ron- this kind of sheep dip pops up on many threads, nearly weekly. It's not just this tread, IMO.

Dr. Bolte, I hope you're having fun, 'cause I think everyone else is.
If the boys in Texas won't play with you, cruise on over to Atlanta. We'd love to have you at a lunch, just bring some towels to swab the drool off your car.

[Jamo]

Brett

If you're coming across sheep dip, might I suggest you change your aim just a tinsy bit.

[agro1]

BRETT - You sure can cut and paste well...

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html


REAL 1 -

"Ad Hominum" is A correct spelling for it's particular contextual usage HERE...In court it would be a different story.

Take care - nice jousting with ya...

[Lew Ledyard]

Thanks guys for the colorful discussion. I cannot think of another vehicle that sparks such passion. Face it, these are all (CSX 3000, CSX 4000, Kirkham, SPF, FF, ERA, etc) great and desirable cars. All I was really looking for was a more or less technical comparison of 3 cars: a 1965 427, a CSX 4000 and a Kirkham. Are there any differences between a CSX and a Kirkham other than the name? $100k is a lot of $$ to spend on a car (but $350k or more for a CSX 3000 is out of the question) and I just wondered if there is any reason, other than name, to pick one over the other? Has anyone driven both? Has anyone other than Motor Trend driven a new 427 and compared it with a new FIA? I want to drive this car regularly. My street bike is a Trackmaster flat track bike (circa 1970) with a heavily modified long rod Triumph 750 race engine, so I am used to the less than practical serving as transportation.

Thanks again for your cooperation and patience.

Lew

[Jamo]

Lew

Stop trying to hijack this thread!

Obviously each invidual car is going to drive a little different depending upon its fitment--not many originals drive alike from what I've heard from those who have them.

4000s and Kirkhams are going to be just about identical--because they are nearly the same car. Might I suggest this: you're not going to buy one of these simply because of what you read here (at least I hope not).

Contact David and Tom Kirkham and talk to them. Their father's original is parked in the garage right next to the shop. I've sat in it several times, as well as in Tom's own Kirkham and several others (they're building mine to fit my big butt--so I tried them both on to see where feet and arms fall). Other than wear--the interiors are identical, as is the look and feel. I sat in several 4000s down at SAI--you're not really going to be able to tell the difference.

The aluminum twins are lighter than fiberglass cars by a significant amount. There is far more underbody structure to them because, quite frankly, that's what is holding the body up.

We are blind men describing an elephant to you. Go sit and, if possible, drive them. It is a great deal of money (trust me!) and it's important for you to know exactly what you are getting.

[computerworks]

See what a little kindling can do, Lew? Passion is an understatement.

I'll sidestep the sheep dip; I'm from NY and we are not familar with that condiment.

Maybe some of this can help:
(footnote credit for some of this to SpecialK)

I believe that the Kirkham-based cars that become CSX4000's are based on a body and frame-only assembly that is OEM'd from KMP. Suspension and running gear are all SAI parts.

The majority of suspension and chassis parts that are used on both the CSX4000 and the KMP427 are reasonably interchangeable with the corresponding CSX3000 part.

The 4000 cars have adjustable front upper control arms that allow castor and camber changes. 3000's only allowed for camber adjustments.

4000 cars have aluminum Salisbury style differentials, 3000's have cast iron. KMPs can have Jag or Salisbury type diff.

Baer brakes are used on the 4000's, with Girlings optional. KMP has either Wilwood or Girling-style.

The common frame is pretty much dead-nuts to the original, with thicker frame rails...they have .120 wall D.O.M. framerails, 3000 cars have .095.

The SAI-made frames have some superior tubing choices and welds that are unparalleled in the Western hemisphere.

Since, usually, either an SAI or KMP is fit-and-finished by the owner or builder...the degree of authenticty is up to whatever you would like to do. Vintage or period parts fit just as well as any modern pieces supplied by either manufacturer.

As a daily driver, I think the suspension differences of the two are moot.

Questions?

[Lew Ledyard]

Great words of advice and explanation. Thanks guys. I am headed out to Utah in Feb.


Lew

[Chaplin]

Lew-
Original, real, replica, no matter what you call it, they are all a hell of a lot of fun, which is really what this should all be about. And even more fun than the cars is the people you will meet (despite what might have transpired on this thread earlier, which really is the exception - (although good natured disagreement and spirited debate DO occur all the time and are half the fun)). I have not met a single group of people more willing to share information and go out of their way to help, than the people on this site- some of whom I have met in person, and many others I hope to meet soon. I am indebted to many of them for their invaluable assistance- and the ones I owe the most are the ones I haven't yet met. Go figure

But Jamo is right, you need to see, feel, touch and taste (well maybe not taste) each car to see what you like. You can't go wrong with SAI or KMP, just a question of how much you want to spend.

Best regards to all.