Which Cobra 427 or FIA, Kirk. or SAI ?

[computerworks]

Turk...my only point here is that it is bogus to use that "red" car as a benchmark for value...

THIS IS THE MEANEST, BADDEST, AND MOST VENOMOUS COBRA EVER BUILT. THIS KING OF COBRAS HAS CUSTOM PAINT WITH A "PHANTOM COBRA" ON EACH OF IT'S FRONT FENDERS. IN ITS BELLY, THERE IS A GROWLING SHELBY 427 ALUMINUM BLOCK ENGINE WITH GOODIES THAT CARROLL SHELBY HIMSELF WANTS TO ANNOUNCE AS PART OF THE FESTIVITIES ON HIS 80TH BIRTHDAY, BEING CELEBRATED THIS YEAR AT BARRETT-JACKSON. FITTED WITH A MANUAL TRANSMISSION AND RACE-PROVEN FEATURES, THIS COBRA WILL ROAR TO THE FINISH LINE. THIS ONE-OF-A-KIND CAR SHARES A HERITAGE WITH SHELBY VEHICLES THAT HAVE PROVEN THEMSELVES YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT AS EXCELLENT INVESTMENTS. THE FACT THAT THIS COBRA IS A "BARRETT- JACKSON SPECIAL" WILL DEFINITELY LEAVE THE COMPETITION SNAKE-BIT! A PORTION OF THE PROCEEDS FROM THE SALE OF THIS CAR WILL GO DIRECTLY TO THE CARROLL SHELBY CHILDRENS FOUNDATION.


(my underline)

There is no denying that the CSX number on current cars, in some circles, has a real (not perceived) value...I just don't know if you can quantify it..since most of the high-priced CSXs are built-to-the-hilt and command a goodly price on face value of content.

[computerworks]

On a related point....

SAAC is going to recognize and include in the Registry those snappy, P.O.S., retread, butt fugly Eleanor GT-500 clones...
...elevating them to the same level of respect as the CSX4000 cars.

[Turk]

Ron,
I am not sure we disagree. However the description of that Cobra is nothing more than a poorly written ad copy , "fluff" if you will.
"MEANEST, BADDEST, MOST VENOMOUS...." etc. doesn't tell me a thing about THAT car other than someone got carried away with the keyboard.

The car that is more deserving those titles may very well be an FFR or a SPF. I doubt that that car sold for that kind a money because it WAS the "BADDEST". I think it brought that amount because it had some sort of a nostalgia, a recognition attached to it.

"Race proven features"...."fitment with a four speed transmission" those virtues, virtually apply to all Cobras. Replica or Real.
The fact that, part of the proceed will go to a charity did not add that much to the overall value. Oldest trick in the car trade.
"WE WILL PLANT A TREE for every Cavalier sold, this weekend, and this weekend only"!!

I think that car stripped of all those superlatives, and the distinction of being "Carroll Shelby's Birthday Car" would have still sold for around $110,000.00
Don't forget the first of 40 Anniversary cars selling around $205,000??

In my book, a premium of $15,000 to $20,000 paid for a Shelby may very well be a relatively safe investment. I am not saying cars (any car) is a wise investment. There are as many people who lost their shirt on buying and selling cars as those who thought Enron was like money in the bank.

You want a safer investment...buy DOT.COM stocks!


I am not looking at the car itself as being a safe or wise investment. I am only looking at that amount that is deemed to be the premium.

What is the matter, you didn't like English either?

TURK

[REAL 1]

Mr. Argo: You are way too serious. I'm a lover not a fighter. (Well actually I have been known to be thrown in the penalty box during a game now and then for a enthusiastic disagreement with an opposing team member, but thats hockey).

I would suggest that you refrain from threating to run guys into the walls at race tracks. Those type of statements and bravado don't sell well here and don't make you look very good to the rest of us. Jousting here doesn't usually include the threat of running someone else into the wall at an event. Name calling occasionally but physical violence never (or not that I've seen).

If you are an MBA act like one.

Remember. These are only cars. Regardless of your opinion (whether factually accurate or supported or not) the importance of the subject, namely Cobras and replicas rise to the level of a hobby for the majority of us and therefore fairly low on the scale of REALly important issues.

On a different subject I agree with Turk regarding the CSX "Birthday car". Someone saw additional perceived value in the car being unique. Whether the perceived value of the buyer will match the perceived value of the market at time of resale who knows.

It is clear, or at least in my mind, that brand name does have a value and people many times are willing to pay more for the "badge". How many Lexus, Infinitis, Accuras do you see on a daily basis. You could buy the same equivilent car for thousands less by buying a Toyota, Nissan or Honda respectively. Why do Harley Davidsons command more money than a comparable Honda, Kawasaki or Yamaha? Are Harleys better bikes. No. In fact you could make a good argument the Jap bikes are better. But, are they Harleys. No. People who want a "Harley" are willing to pay the difference for the name. Why? Perceived value, status, exclusivity and pedigree and history.

If Harley then made a special "Willie G." model and limited production don't you think it would command more money than a standard production Harley? Assolutely. Why? Perceived value in exclusivity.

While Turk says and I agree that the Shelby will have some investiment value in the years to come I think most people who buy the Shelby, the Harley, the Lexus etc..do so because they enjoy having that product which carries with it a status the others don't have. Its the intangible of owning a Shleby Cobra with the Shelby pedigree that provides the value and the added enjoyment for its owners. Others don't see it as being worth the difference and they would be just as happy with the Toyota, Yamaha or SPF. Thats fine. To each his own.

Enjoy what you have and let others enjoy what they have. We'll all be happy.

[jhein]

One last reply to my little argo friend... mba's are a dime a dozen and I don't really care where you got yours. Somebody, somewhere may be impressed by you but I am not. Besides, you still are avoiding the real point. It doesn't matter where you went to school or what it says on your piece of paper YOU are still a poorly adjusted and sad person. That's the point. Now if you think my intention was to entertain you, you're wrong. As far as your 'jousting', fighting, and toughguy talk, please who are you kidding? I am the loser? Hum, that's just not how I see it. Bye Bye.

John
SPF1421

[Excaliber]

I don't know,,,,,I still get a little sick when I see one of those Yamaha Harley look-a-likes. I guess it's OK, they no doubt are a "better" built bike for the money and all that, but I wouldn't want one. Heck, for the "money" I guess Timex beats Rolex hands down. So why would I drive a replica? Yeah, it's the money thing. But I gotta draw the line some where! No Yamaha look-a-like in MY garage thank you! Personal taste I guess........

Ernie

[REAL 1]

Ernie: So far you are batting 1000.

[agro1]

Originally posted by jhein


Somebody, somewhere may be impressed by you but I am not. Besides, you still are avoiding the real point. It doesn't matter where you went to school or what it says on your piece of paper YOU are still a poorly adjusted and sad person.
John
SPF1421 [/b]

...Eeeeeeyeah, cause what I really want to do is try and impress YOU (or anyone else here for that matter)...Get a life. As far as what type of person I am, that's an ad hominum discussion, or did you not understand that when you plagerized the definition earlier ??? Nice try though. And if you paid attention, you'd realize my "loser" comment was not aimed at you - but it is now...

REAL 1 -

I'll take your "suggestion" under advisement, but, how I look to you, or anyone else for that matter is of no consequence to me. I do not tailor my feelings, thoughts and actions to please the group. If you don't like it, too bad. I do however respect your views and agree with you on many of the things you have said about the [new] CSX's - They ARE fantastic cars, but I still believe they are nothing more than a reproduction of the original, exactly as an SPF is. I guess that is where I will agree to disagree with you Evan.

Now it's time to load my replica onto the trailer and go to Willow for a little open track day tomorrow. Hopefully I don't piss anyone off and get put in the wall.

[Excaliber]

Evan,,,,,my 13 year old son is the hardest critic I have to deal with, I can handle the "big" boys. But my son, talk about a "rivet" counter! He understands WHY I like the Excal and look toward getting a Classic Roadster to replace it. Intellectually he understands, his heart is a different matter. I hear him muttering under his breath,,,,"but the wheel base aint right". Ouch, now THAT hurts!

Ernie

[Jamo]

Let's be honest...

Obviously, having the badge is going to mean something in the future--how much is anyone's guess. And it costs a bit more to be entitled to that guess. Brett made a passing reference to Enzo's death--but we know that not all Ferraris have increased in value--some have continued to decline. Ultimately, it is the worth (performance, eye appeal and uniqueness) of the particular car itself that determines what its furture value will be. Dinos sat on lots for years as overpriced Fiats until the creator's death--now they lead the charge. Latter era TRs, a damn good car even today, continue to drop in price. So who knows? Folks have danced around it--and we surely hope it is a long ways off, but utlimately, Mr. Shelby will pass on and, as with any great artist, some of his works will increase in value and some will not. 4000s may increase, or maybe Shelby Dakotas will--who in the hell knows?

For some--it is the current value of the CSX number that is worth the premium, and for them--they get their money's worth now.

But for all of us, regardless of the mfg of our cars--it is whatever the value of whatever we place on the Cobras we drive. I will always love the Butler I just sold--and I know that it had some unique aspects that simply are not duplicated by any other mfg today. I will love the Kirkham as well--for the unique characteristics it has that I was looking for. To me--the beauty of the Cobra universe of makes is not what they have in common. Rather, it is how different they all are--each has its own brush strokes to appreciate. If it wasn't for that--we might as well all be talking at web sites for Vettes, Porsches or Vipers and talk about problems we are having with service departments or the latest computer chips or, gawd forbid, how to fix a broken cupholder...

[Anthony]

What A Thread !!!

Lew (if you're still listening), for what it appears you want, I don't think it matters which model you get. Whether a leaf spring or coil spring chassis, they will do what you want them to do. I think one significant difference in the chassis, is that with the leaf spring one, you may not be able to adjust camber/castor. I think that was the case on all of the csx2000 cars, and maybe on the new kirkhams leaf spring chassis. On the shelby leaf spring chassis, they incorporated an eccentric cam where the hub fastens, so you can adjust castor/cambor. You need to talk to Kirkham to see if they can do it on their cars.

The leaf spring chassis was designed in the late '40's, I think. The coil spring chassis was supposed to be an improved suspension, of which, not including the larger 427 engine, was supposidly only 50 lbs heavier, including the larger frame rails, body changes, and extra suspension components.

I think shelby only "buys" unfinished bodies and chassis from Kirkham, and then Shelby supplies and finishes the rest of the body and suspension conmponents. So even though Kirkham supplies the bodies and frame for the aluminum CSX4000 and CSX7000 cars, they still have some differences between them (Kirkham vs. Shelby) other than just the name.

Argo1,

actually the superformance and csx4000 cars are very different. You need to compare the bare chassis's beside each other to really see the differences. Yea, they both look the same, but the chassis/suspension design is completely different. I'm not saying the superformance is a bad car, in fact, I think it is a great car, as my buddy has one, and I drive it all the time. The superformance uses modern design, passenger car components modified to "cobra" specs. For example, the control arms are stamped steel, with eccentric cams for alignment adjustment. The CSX4000 cars have large diamenter threaded rods for upper and lower control arms. The csx4000 suspension components are interchangeable with the csx3000 cars, where as superformance's are not. Obviously, the closer you want the car to be to the csx3000's, the more expensive it will be. I would think superformance believes it designed a chassis "equal" to the original, but cheaper in cost because of using current production suspension components.

[G.R.]

The "real-wannabe-replica" debate -- is a lose-lose proposition for all involved.

Personally I could care less--- each and every owner or wannbe owner has his "dream car" bb, sb, glass or aluminum, SPF, Butler,
West Coast, FFR, SAI, Kirkham, and all the others-- some are are better some are worse--

In the end it all comes down to "ONce I had this CAR....."

As far AS Shelby/SAI-- this is where our dreams emanated--the heritage-- the look of the car-- originally bulit, designed,and raced and won against the worlds best in it's day by one Carrol Shelby and his enterprise--

Of course the SAI builds will always be worth more $ for $ because of that heritage-- why not

The #1 "eleanor" mustang went for what $145 K-- why-- A collector saw potential as an "investment " the "paper trail" linking the limited build to Shelby/SAI--#1 of limited series-- or some may think he and his wife(?) had more money than brains--
no difference he owns it you or me don't.--wouldn't you love to own the #1 orginal CSX--

Just enjoy the marque--

All opinions are strictly mine, for whatever the worth

[Great Asp]

I keep hearing this business about interchangeable suspension parts and wonder. You guys ever need to, or want to interchange your suspension with another cars?

SUSPENSION SWAPPING PARTY!!!!

Big deal....

Nothing on a Superformance is done to make it cheaper. Stamped steel or anything else. SPF fabricates all of their suspension parts in their own factory (okay, the pumpkin is a Ford Racing 8.8). They do not source out the fabrication of suspension parts from another company. I think SAI does that. But I might be wrong.

Great Asp

[Excaliber]

Great Asp,,,the fact that you COULD have a suspension changing party speaks volumes about the "accuracy" of the build.

Ernie

[REAL 1]

Argo: You may behave as you wish in this club (up to a point before you are collared by a moderator). Many of us here have been here for a long time and we know each other and understand when things are heated or just kidding around. You can take my suggestion or leave it. Thats up to you. Just giving you the benefit of my experience should you choose to follow it.

My point is comments such as the "running into the wall" thing are not necessary. They make you look bad and when you start to look bad you start to alienate guys here. Case in point, "Corvetteman". When you start to alienate too many guys here you then have less fun here and spend less time talking about the hobby and more time exchanging bull$hit barbs with others.

If you want to look bad and don't care, believe me its A-OK with me.

I have differences with some guys here (believe it or not) but I'm still friendly with them. Its a hobby. Thats all it is. It should never cross the line to get personal. No one likes that. I bet you wouldn't either.

On the subject. Actually we agree. The CSX 4000's are a reproduction of the original. An exact one at that. My point is that while they are replicas because they are exact clones of the original, resurrected if you will they differ from the others not only because they are exactly like the original in every detail and part but because they are also COBRAs. No other is a genuine Cobra, factually or legally. Only the CSX.

All this is not said in an effort to make "mine" better than yours. Its just stating the clear facts about my car or any CSX. What is better to each of us is subjective. Some guys made a conscious decision that they didn't want a Shelby for their own reason.

It never ceases to amaze me how some (not all) guys always equate stating factual information about the CSX by their owners, which is 99% of the time in response to someones question like in this thread to saying "mine is better than yours". My only explanation for this reaction has to be some sort of hang up related to an inferiority complex about their car or a need to make themselve feel better by knocking what they don't have.

To me "better" meant having a genuine Cobra. Second series 427 Cobra although not "original" but REAL nonetheless. To me it was important to have the Cobra name, the Cobra pedigree and the Shelby heritage and the recoginition of SAAC as a Cobra. To you better may mean more horse power or a square tube chasis or whatever. You make your choices I'll make mine.

[Chaplin]

I was thinking about the Harley Davidson analogy, and it just doesn't work. The Jap bikes, no matter how much they may style them to look the Harleys, never will equal the sound and mystique of the Harley v-twin- they are just different animals. So why would ever buy a Jap relica Harley?

Cobra replicas, however, can and often do equal to the look, sound and performance of the original Cobra (and it some cases, may surpass the originals).

So if you are looking to buy a Cobra replica to experience the fun, excitement, bragging rights [fill in whatever is important to you] you can probably satisfy that urge with any number of replicas. But, as Evan said, when making the decison as to which to buy, you have to decide what is important to you.

For me, I wanted the most accurate looking body that I could afford - so I went with the ERA. If I had more $$ to blow and could afford an arruminum car I'm not sure if I would have went with CSX or KMP. I'd like to say I'd go with the KMP because I've never been one to be concerned about labels and have always been opposed to paying more for a brand name (yes I have compared the ingredients labels on brand name shampoos and drug store shampoos and bought the drug store variety when they are identical), but it is undeniable that the Shelby name carries a certain cache- would I have fell victim?- maybe.

Bottom line- get what you want, enjoy it and consider yourself lucky to have it. And don't judge others for their choice-whether it be a Strett Beast or a CSX because each person has his reasons for getting whatever they got and, in either case, that car is that person's pride and joy.

[Great Asp]

Ernie,

My post is all in good fun. And I suppose you are right that SAI is assembling their reproductions of the cars made in the 60's exactly like they were (as much as possible I assume, the aluminum SAI block is an improvement I would say). But they are reproductions to be sure.

But the bodies are made in Poland instead of England (disclaimer, I am not saying the bodies are bad because they come from Poland. I am just saying they are not AC bodies). So why the big deal about suspension? Shocks the same?

Oh well.....

It's okay.

Eric

[Excaliber]

Chaplin,,,your right,,,,something is missing in the Harley vs Yamaha comparison,,,,The MOTOR, ha ha. Put a Harley motor in the Yamaha frame? Who would do that? It's not "natural". But it IS natural for the Cobra (any Cobra) to run a Ford, your right, the Harley is not a good comparo.

Hmmmmm,,,,so a Chevy engine in a Cobra is like a Harley engine in a Yamaha?????

Ernie

[REAL 1]

Eric: Hypotheticaly speaking what if in the 60's KMP made the bodies and chasis and what if AC supplied them now?

Both would be Cobras except the KMP would be the original ones.

Interesting twist. No?

[cobra fever]

I think this thread beat the OJ trial on tv. I'll give my left nut to own anyone of those cars SAI or the KMP, be happy of what you got. Lets not put eachother down. Wonder if my car would sell for more, because got the signature on my glove box?