Which Cobra 427 or FIA, Kirk. or SAI ?

[Anthony]

Great Asp,

What I'm saying is that I believe it is more expensive to duplicate the CSX3000 car in every way, than substitute non-original type pieces that are capable of doing the job. For example, the half shafts used in the spf I believe are shortened versions of actual ford production units, with I believe CV joints. CSX4000 and Kirkham cars use sliding spline half-shafts with universal joints at each end, identical to the CSX3000 cars. The pedals on a spf hinges from the top of the foot box, where on CSX4000 and Kirkham cars, the pedal box is in the floor, the pedals hinge from below the floor boards, idential to the CSX3000 cars.

[REAL 1]

Anthony: You are correct. It is very expensive/more expensive to prioduce a CSX than a SPF.

Each peice on the CSX and Kirkham is made for that car. Each peice in CAD reversed engineered to original specs so that each peice is interchangable with the original part.

In short the CSX is a resurrection/clone of the the CSX.

Than add in the premium for it being a Shelby.

[DougD]

Evan and all,
Here's a thought to muddy the original/replica waters a bit...

If we classify the '60's Cobras as authentic originals because they were built by AC and Shelby back then, then I would propose that a CSX4000 fiberglass-bodied car is actually more Shelby, and therefore more authentic, than the original '60's ones, and more authentic than the new aluminum replicas from either SAI or Kirkham. Here's the rationale:

The '60's originals were assembled from components supplied by numerous vendors, just as they are today. The vendors vary, but most of the individual parts of an aluminum Cobra were not then, and are not now, manufactured by SAI. For example, aluminum-bodied cars receive frames from Kirkham (and possibly others), bodies have been sourced from Kimmins, Kirkham, and who knows from what other sources. Fiberglass CSX4000 series cars, on the other hand, have more Shelby-built parts on them than the CSX2000, CSX3000, or aluminum CSX4000 cars. For example, the frames are welded together at Shelby's shop in Nevada, not by AC or Kirkham or anyone else. The vast majority of the parts to build a CSX4000 are direct replacements(often identical) for the original cars. (To advance this theory, you have to be willing to accept the new CSX cars as genuine Shelbys, but as new models available today.) Part for part, a fiberglass CSX4000 has more Shelby-sourced parts than even the originals!

My Nomex shorts are on, let the flames begin!

[Great Asp]

Anthony, and Evan,

Okay, I get it. The cars are built to reproduce the orginals as close as they can be.

Do you personaly think that the reason SAI will sell a fiberglass body in lieu of aluminum is to be able to be more competitive with the cars. Do I have that right?

Eric

[southernfriedcj]

Man, I wish my 5 year old could read. She would get a kick out of this thread!
You guys have got me LMAO!

How about a 3 round boxing match at DVSFIII between
between Real1 and Argo1. I'd make a donation to see "The Brawl In The Wall".

[Excaliber]

Yeah I suspect that SAI has the glass cars to offer the motoring public some better options on price. It's interesting to me that the glass cars are heavier than the tin cans. And weight IS the name of the game when it comes to performance!

Ernie

[CSX 4039]

I like the boxing match idea... pretty good.
How 'bout "Brains vs. Brawn-Three round Bout".
Sell tickets. Proceeds after hospital expenses go to the Children's Fund. ComputerWorks as referee. Turk as trainer in REAL 1's corner, Southernfried"bundini"cj in Agro 1's... One set of trunks red with Wimbledon White piping, the other, blue and signed by Shelby. Ring made of asphalt with double yellow stripes; surrounded by stacked tires and rectangular bales of hay. Punching below the belt sentenced in traffic court. Broken noses repaired quickly DURING the round by experienced medical "pit crew"- fighters back in action in 15 seconds or less! Puke tank kept at ringside. Ineffective radiator fan in corners vainly trying to cool big block combatants "idling" between rounds. I like it!

[computerworks]

"....Are your sidepipes ready to r-u-m-m-m- B-U-L-L??!!!!"

[Anthony]

Obviously, this is my opinion and understanding, some of which may not be correct, but I think most of it is.

Before SAI got involved into producing CSX4000 cars, as we know, there were many different manufacturers out there, all with different designs. One of them was Hi-Tech, in Arizona, not the one in South Africa. It was owned by Tom D'Antonio. Unlike other replica manufacturers, they strived to reproduce the car in every way. They utilized the original chassis, but designed a fiberglass body and appropriate frame substructure to make the car less expensive, than by reproducing the aluminum body as well which was an additional $30-40K. Their price was $35K for an unfinished semi-roller, with aluminum doors, hood, trunk, with a fiberglass body, but not including wheels, tires, oil cooler. Not a bad price. The diff was a nodular 9 inch modified to bolt into the original space, but still utilizing original style half shafts, etc.

There was a guy from my neck of the woods, I think his name was Tim Gunning, who made a lot of money owning the local Auto Trader Magazine. He somehow bought into Hi-Tech, and was a partner. Somehow, there was a falling out, and Tom D'Antonio sold out to Tim Gunning. There were other issues at that time with poor quality control, not delivering products as promised, etc., but that is another story. Hi-Tech has since gone under.

About the same time, SAI was not pleased with the replica market, for various reasons. They decided to come out with their own car. I'm not sure iif was arranged before D'Antonio left Hi-Tech or not, but soon after leaving, D'Antonio started working for SAI, taking the Hi-Tech design with him. Thus, birth of the CSX4000. The car was offered in both fiberglass and aluminum bodies. Price for an unfinished fiberglass roller was $42K, including wheels and tires. Aluminum bodies were available, hande made, at an additional $40K.

I believe most of the initial CSX4000 cars were fiberglass cars. SAI made the frame, body, as well as other components, and I'm sure farmed out parts as well. Then Kirkham came along, reproducing an aluminum car, much more efficiently and cheaper than what SAI was capable of obtaining them, so SAI ordered 100 bodies and frames from Kirkham, and then SAI finished the suspension, body trim, and interior components themselves. Thus, the birth of the Shelby-Kirkham.

In my opinion, all CSX4000 cars are genuine Shelby's, no matter who made the frame, body, etc. In the future, will some CSX4000 cars be worth more than others because of it? I don't know, and if so, probably by not alot.

If Ford stated making the 1965 Hi-Po Mustang fastback again, every part identical to the original, would it still be a Ford Mustang, even though they now get their toploader from David Kee? If they build the body in a different facility than they did in 1965, is it still a Ford Mustang? Yes, in my opinion it is still a Ford Mustang, an original Ford mustang made to 1965 specs, but in 2003. Would you buy one? He!! yes, but the Fed won't let them because it would not meet current EPA and safety guidlines. Well, SAI is reproducing the cobra, identical to the way it was in 1962-66. It is the second chance to buy one from Shelby. An original 427 SC I think sells for about $500-600K, if you can find one of the 30 or so for sale.

I don't follow the CSX2000 and 3000 prices much, but it seems that over the last several years, since the introduction of the CSX4000 and CSX7000 cars, the prices of street 289's have gone up, while 427's have been stable or maybe dropped a little. Do you think the introduction of the CSX7000 and Kirkham FIA cars have driven the price of the CSX2000 cars up, being that 3-4 years ago, the price of a new CSX7000 or Kirkham car was close to the price of a CSX2000 street car?

[computerworks]

Anthony...a good and accurate synopsis.

Further, it is thought that Gunning splashed his molds from CSX3190

[REAL 1]

Anthony: Good synopsis. I second Rons comment.

DougD: Your over analyzing the issue. Not necessary and its not the issue. Whats most important is that each CSX is a genuine Shelby. Production methods and source part suppliers/fabricators may vary from time to time. The end product and its quality and exactness to original specs is whats important. All CSX's are identical with the exception that the glass CSX does not have some of the tubing of the the new aluminum CSX or original CSX.

Eric: Yes. You are right. The glass CSX I believe are offered as they offer a more affordable option and to some a more attractive option in light of certain durability advantages glass may have over aluminum.

Mr. Botte: I am up for the challenge and opprotunity to use my Ju Jitsu training and hockey fighting experience but as with last years "Turk & Evan" drag race challenge the challenge again hasn't come from the other participate but others willing to "volunteer" me to a challenge. Why is that?

[Edley Rondinone]

So, we call the CSX 4000 Series cars "reproductions" or "continuation" cars. They DO have a lineage, as they are "built" by SAI. We cannot call them "REAL" or "ORIGINAL", because that would confuse them with the CSX cars built in the '60s. These are the facts, and I can live with these facts!

[southernfriedcj]

Originally posted by REAL 1



Mr. Botte: I am up for the challenge and opprotunity to use my Ju Jitsu training and hockey fighting experience but as with last years "Turk & Evan" drag race challenge the challenge again hasn't come from the other participate but others willing to "volunteer" me to a challenge. Why is that?

Why? 'Cause it's entertainment! I won't be Argo1's cornerman, but I will be southernfrieddonking. What say you Evan and Argo, how about three rounds for Team Jenny? Helments and those huge boxing gloves so nobody gets hurt? I bet we could sell 100 tickets at $50 a pop. I bet Evan fights like a girl!

Just kiddin' Evan, don't use any of that chung king on me.

[southernfriedcj]

Originally posted by REAL 1



Mr. Botte: I am up for the challenge and opprotunity to use my Ju Jitsu training and hockey fighting experience but as with last years "Turk & Evan" drag race challenge the challenge again hasn't come from the other participate but others willing to "volunteer" me to a challenge. Why is that?

Why? 'Cause it's entertainment! I won't be Argo1's cornerman, but I will be southernfrieddonking. What say you Evan and Argo, how about three rounds for Team Jenny? Helments and those huge boxing gloves so nobody gets hurt? I bet we could sell 100 tickets at $50 a pop. I bet Evan fights like a girl!

Just kiddin' Evan, don't use any of that chung king on me.

[CSX 4039]

I think he did challenge you on the track, no? The "in the wall" thing....I was just fleshing out the somewhat less lethal alternative proposed by cj. BTW, if it comes to pass, my money's on you.

[Specialk]

Tim Gunning bought the business from Tom D'Antonio. They were never partners. It was more of a "I had it, you got it" deal.

[Buzz]

I really can't understand what all the fuss is about (all 8 or 10 pages of it). A Shelby Cobra is a Cobra produced and sold by Shelby - all auto manufacturers out source parts, including bodies; remember the Cadillac Allante? An original Cobra is a Cobra produced and sold by Shelby (and / or AC) in the sixties. Any other Cobra is a replica. So whats the problem? Nothing anyone says or does pertaining to his or her own car can impact on what my car is or is not, or the way I feel about it.
Everyone has a right to feel good about the car that they own. FFR owners feel good that their cars are inexpensive, light and fast. ERA owners are proud of the beauty and reputation that their cars enjoy. Why can't CSX owners be openly proud of the fact that their cars are REAL Shelby Cobras without incurring the wrath of almost everyone else?

[REAL 1]

Edley: Depends on what you want to consider REAL. If you restrict your definition of REAL = Original than fine. But this position is clearly based on emotion and bias rather than the current state of the facts.

While I will concede that when most non-Cobra people (ie. general public) refer to "REAL" they are in most cases refering to the original car but they are also unaware of the new series CSX. I can tell you from my experience without exception that every "non Cobra" person who has come in contact with my car and learns of what it is and its origin ie..SAI they clearly appear to acknowledge and consider it a REAL Cobra and coming from the original source...Shelby. You can see they are fascinated by the car and the fact it comes from SAI and is an exact clone of their original in every detail.

Very simply, to say the new Shelby Cobra is not a "REAL" Cobra is not factually accurate and ignors the current reality and developments, ie. the re-emergence of SAI and resurrection of their Cobra.

The current Cobras are relatively new. The originals have been around for over 40 years. Until the late 90's and the re-emergence of SAI there has only been one "Cobra". The original. I understand that there is an emotional attachment we all have to the originals, their siginificance and their special place in history. I am not trying to steal their thunder or elevate the new CSX to their level of significance. The originals are very special cars and rare. They are the reason I have my car. All CSX owners I know feel the same way. The originals are also the reason your cars even exist.

However, "REAL" in all fariness and factually now means two things. Original/Vintage Shelby Cobra or new Shelby Cobra.

When guys who have CSX's say they have REAL Cobras its not meant as a knock to anyone. They are proud of their car, their pedigree and the fact they are accepted by SAAC as a genuine Cobra and are the only cars that can legally bear the Cobra name and badge. As Buzz said, why is it that everytime a CSX owner, who is proud of what his car is, and states the facts as to the car or defends its status they incur the wrath some of those that don't have Shelby's? I can only come to one conclusion. Since factually and legally the non CSX owners who persist in arguing that the new Cobra should not be considered a REAL Cobra couldn't be more wrong factually and legally, and if they can't see it I can't help them as the only reason left must be emotional ie..sour grapes.

By saying my Cobra is a "REAL" Cobra I am not saying it is better than yours. I am simply saying what my car is. Go ahead and say your car is better than mine because it has a zippidy dodah suspension, made better or some kick butt SB. Fine. But knock my car as not being a REAL Cobra and I'll piss in your gas tank. Only kidding. I'll just politely disagree and, as always just point to the facts. Should you continue to ignor reality, well thats your problem not mine.

Everyone is openly proud of their cars and what they are or are not as the case may be. That includes CSX owners.

Buzz: Kudos to you. Thanks.

As to the REAL 1 vs. Argo 1 battle royale I forgot to tell you guys that I only do steel cage matches and the DVSF is a family gig.

Beside you have to talk to my agent, Turk.

[G.R.]

Buzz

Jealousy perhaps!

The CSX owners arent bashing anyone as far as I can determine.
These guys can afford one--fine by me-- they just support the fact they have a Cobra built by Shelby American--SAI the company that put the "marque" on the racing scenes in the '60's--and continues today to build a car from the same mfg.
Pride is what it is about--I think

Doesn't matter who built/mfg the car--I think we all just like the look/performance/closeness to the heritage/the "someday" dream we've all harbored in our minds--

I do not think there would be many who have"knock-offs" that would turn down an even swap for an SAI

[Edley Rondinone]

Evan, I have been away from the 'puter since Friday, and had no access to these threads. We seem to agree that the "Original" Cobras were made in the 60's. I will even concede that the CSX 4000 cars are "REAL", as they ARE, indeed, built by the original builders, ie SAI. If I had the money, I would definitely have a CSX 4---. (Actually, I would rather have a CSX 2--- 289 car, because I NEVER see any of those, and I would put in in the garage next to the Softail. the NAF Cobra, and the '57 Fairlane 500 Hardtop! Until then, my NAF will have to suffice. Peace, and no hard feelings on this end! (and disregard the reply on the Barrett-Jackson" Thread!!! Edley