NASCAR Engines

[Ant]

Wondering if anyone uses used or last years, old Nascar engines in their Cobras, as some guys downunder get them and use them for Transam style racing, one of those guys suggested I get one, crack test the components, fit a hydraulic rollercam, alter compression for the street, and then I would have a decent block etc, due to the suggested fact that windsors blocks dont like hard use with in excess of 500bhp?

Having said that if the Nascar engines porting etc is for big rpms, it may be totally impractical for my application!

Sorry to hear about the fatalities in the Cobra accident, life is very precious!

Ant

[750hp]

coyled has fitted a 358ci Winston Cup motor into his Cobra. If he doesn't reply here, email him via his contact details here : http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/memb...o&userid=10215

There are a few website that sell used Nascar parts for reasonable prices. Another option is to get onto one of the Aussie V8 Supercar teams. They should be able to put you onto a "non-current" spec motor for a pretty good price. The compression ratio is already pump-gas friendly, the camshaft could be a little smaller, and it'd want rings and bearings. You'd have a pretty special looking motor with a beautiful cross-ram intake manifold for you troubles though....

[Ant]

Thanks Craig

Food for thought, I have heard from a guy who reckons that a Nascar engine can be had for around NZ$12K. I would imagine that a Ford Supercar engine would be a more, I suppose its a matter of contacts as it may be an economical proposition, for the extra quality hardware.

Ant

[RockSnake]

Certainly an intriguing concept. However, I seem to recall another post in this forum from someone considering the same approach...you might be able to find it in a search.

Anyway, if memory serves, this fellow was considering swapping his 427 for a NASCAR motor...even had the 427 out of the car. Then he got a ride in a live NASCAR vehicle, and decided that was just way too much for a Cobra.

[750hp]

Ant - scrap the V8 Supercar engine as an option. I had an interesting talk with one of the Ford engine builders today, and you wouldn't want one of these motors for your streeter.... The lightweight components (crank, rods, pistons, valves, rockers, etc) that have a set life will all need replacing. There may be sleeves in the bores. The manifold may be porous. I could go on, but suffice to say that they NEVER sell a good engine for less than $50K, and even then, it'd be one that needs a $10K freshen up.

The guy I spoke to dynoed my motor. I sure am glad that he wasn't thinking those sort of dollar amounts when he charged me for his dyno time!!!!

[Ant]

Thanks David for your post, I am not sure what the make up of the Nascar engines are, the reason I am interested in the rotating mass may be more precision and stronger, also possible by some modification I could be better off with less hassle and have a strong block.

Craig Thats interesting about the supercars, very reliable nowadays but could as hours of usage go up become a time bomb!

I assume that Nascar engines are high compression, will look on the net and source information. My first Cobra was a bored FE 390 with Super Cobrajet heads that were off a drag car, hence me doing mainly road work the cam ran out of power @6500 before the heads really worked, so I don't want to end up with something that runs about 2000rpm higher than I need, but having said that I dont expect to get what I want without a bit of modification and some dollars.

[bill32]

Having been involved with NASCAR teams and their engine builders for quite a few years, here are my thoughts that you might consider before buying a used NASCAR engine to put in your Cobra.

About the only standard manufactured part in these engines are the Block, which comes from Ford. While the Heads are Ford racing heads, when the team is done with their modifications, it is now a custom part.

Every Nascar team, and each of their engines they build (50+ per year for many Winston Cup teams) are individual and different. They build their engines, machine their own heads, valves, connecting rods, rocker arms, cams, cranks, etc. They make different engines and different internal parts depending on the track to be run on, and then they continually modify parts, experiment, etc. throughout the season. So what parts are actually in a given engine you might buy will be a mystery to you mystery without tearing it down, and they are all custom at that point. THUS, you won't be able to buy replacement parts for almost any of the internal engine parts. You are much better off for the money to buy a Ford Crate Motor, or build one yourself. That way you have off the shelf parts you know and can buy replacement parts anywhere.

My 2 cents.

[jdean]

It is a magazine here in the U.S.

Recently they sponsored an "Engine Masters" small block engine building challenge - who could build the best "street" small block that delivers the best average power between 2,500 and 6,000 RPM.

Well, many builders made well over 550 HP with a max of 366 ci.
Most used commonly available mail order-type parts accessible to everyone.

The winner made just over 600hp with no "power adders".

My point is that 10-15 years ago, this would be in NASCAR engine territory.

[sean67]

I have to agree with bill32. My friend builds cup motors for a living. He built the motor in my car. He also owns a Cobra. It has nothing close to the engine he builds everyday and I know he would not even think about it. Those motors are designed and built to the very ragged edge and only to last 500 miles or whatever the track size is. He works for one of the larger teams that supplies engines to other teams and the the cars they field and none of them are exactly the same.

He did build a very similiar to a cup motor for my cousin for his NASA car and it is definetly a different motor. You know when he is coming before he gets there because it sounds so different, but it only goes well when its wide open. It has such a radical spirit I would hate to drive something like that on the street, it just could not be any fun in traffic. But if it's what you want?

Sean

[RACER X #99]

Anybody that watches Nascar on tv has to have noticed the tach reading on some of those engines. They run between 6000 and 9000 rpms. Great for the track but hardly a streetable engine. They do sound great though.

There is nothing like the sound of a sb.

Cranky

[Ant]

Thanks guys for your posts, made good sense, they are rev rockets with a limited life expectancy.

The reason I was looking at Nascar engines is from some accounts the 351W engine is still a weak block, over 500bhp, so I suppose a guy would have to shell out and buy an SVO Block to give a bit more integrity, or else fit a bottom end cradle, even fit four bolt main caps?

Another question is surely a non stroked 351W with the right combination, on pump gas (10:1) should make reasonable power, the Aussie supercars are doing it on that and making 600bhp.

jdean: I must get a copy of that magazine, to get some ideas.

Ant

[RACER X #99]

Ant,
The Dart Iron Eagle small block is even stronger than the SVO stuff about 2K. There are pictures and specs in SMALL BLOCK TALK

Cranky

[750hp]

If you want 500hp, I wouldn't bother with anything other than a '70 factory block, Scat crank and rods, and a nice light piston like a JE. Capacity somewhere around 377 to 408 cubes, using 3.7" to 4.0" stroke.

There are lots of guys making 500hp with 351W blocks. Cranky knows a lot more about the Dart block, but my SVO block needed heaps of machining as delivered (cylinder bores, tunnel bore, lifter bores even need honing, decking, etc) Lots of money to throw away if you're just planning on having a nice street motor.

If you're putting gumballs on the side, and a helmet on your head, well then I can see you wanting the strongest parts available.

So, how about a Sprint Car WoO 410 motor. Drop the compression a few notches. Convert the Kinsler to EFI, replace the maggie with an MSD. Now we're talking!!!

[Ant]

~¯
?can get a 351W engine for US$250 here, and if fitting a cradle etc will do the job, regarding SVO, Dart etc aftermarket blocks I suppose you still have to do most of the prep work with the blocks, like line boring etc, but dont have to check for thickness porosity?

Craig

Sprint engines, I assume you are talking speedway? Wouldn't a sprint car engine be a bit like a Nascar donk run up the rev scale?

Cheers Ant

[750hp]

Ant - I don't realy think you even need a girdle with the 351W. Most guys that I speak to over here don't use them. I think you'd be throwing money away if you bought an SVO or Dart block.

The World of Outlaws 410 cube sprint car motors are a VERY serious motor. 800+hp, massive compression, even bigger roller camshaft and valve springs that would straighten the Leaning Tower of Pisa. Huge revs, high maintainence, etc -- but once you hear one of them at peak revs on a solo qualifying pass on a 1/2 mile oval, you'll want one for evermore..... It's always nice to dream!!!

[Ant]

Craig:

I know a chap who races an XD Falcon here with 351W, Alloy heads, good rods, standard crank/Block, he reckons rods are a weakness, but the blocks are good, states about 420-430bhp, his car goes real good.

I want to aim for a bit over 500bhp then I know its going to do the job!

My FE390 was around the 400bhp mark, not earth shattering, and to heavy, plus I cant afford an alloy 427 which I would dearly love.
I raced a Ford Cortina Mk3 sports sedan, called OSCA here, it ran an ex F5000 302 Chevrolet Peter Malloy engine, with a good 500bhp, this baby ran 5000-9000rpm with a vengence, but that was years ago.

The burning issue is can I get over 500bhp with a 5.7 Litre or do I need to "STROKE IT" to make it easier to obtain this result while only running a max of 10:1 compression?

Ant

[750hp]

Ant - stroke it, baby! You're killing two birds with the one stone when you buy a good SCAT aftermarket crank and rods. You get (obviously) strong parts, but the choice of how many cubes you want.
Anywhere from 3.7" to 4.0" is a good starting point. I personally wouldn't sacrifice rod length/stroke ratio for cubes by going over 4.0" stroke. For a nice, strong street motor, I'd probably be inclined to use a 4.0" stroke, 6.2" rods, nice light pistons +.030, and you have a very good base for a 408 cube torque monster.

I've heard some scary things about quality control issues with Eagle lately. I have some Eagle rods in a 460 in another car without a problem, but apparently things have gone downhill. I'd recommend the SCAT parts as the best value for money.

[Ant]

Craig:
It appears that a lot of people on this forum stroke their engines, as you have endorsed.
What sort of petrol do you have in Aus, I wouldn't mind running 9.7 - 10.1 comp, the petrol here varies a bit, but I think with alloy heads I should get away with it, and for a bit of racing give it some nice "Green leaded spirit"

Another debate I have an engine builder who does a lot of the Ford sprint car engines here, charges about NZ$3K. so I am thinking why dont I get a good machining outfit to do the Block and clearance the stroker kit, and all the rest is bolt on, like good AFR Heads which are good out of the box. Having said all that I am a mechanic with limited experience with engines, sometimes its better to leave it to the experts.

Probe have premium stroker/engine parts, nice shaft mount rockers in pairs etc.

Food for thought - Ant