ERA vs SPF

[Turk]

Bandit 1
They ARE two different cars in more ways than can be listed in here.

TURK

[Frank]

This is indeed another great thead to follow, great information!
helps me out in my search for my cobra, now myself being fareley
new to the cobra hard core scene (learning) i am narrowing my choice so far down to the spf, i love the era the only true era i have seen was jeff"s at autorama 2002 and the only real problem i could see with the car was>> that it was not sitting in "my" garage (lol) beautifull car jeff!

Now the spf i really liked the workmanship,(i hope they spf has another display at the autorama this year) and being in Canada, there is a spf dealer here now, i have been looking into what it takes to import a used spf into canada what a hassle! but i have a restoration dealer nearby that says he could possibly get the job done (paperwork) hey just trying to save a buck or two,

Here is a question or two regarding the body on the spf what are the true differances? i have heard a longer nose? the butt was a little higher? and the car sits higher?= now are we talking about a chassis ride height/ coil over adjustment or? maybe some of the hard core or spf guys have some hands on info?

Frank

[frankym]

This is a truly great forum with very thoughtful contributors. This thread exemplifies the constructive critcism that the forum is intended to provide. I don't think any post here could offend anyone because they're all pretty objective, and where opinion is stated, it's described as such. I think that everybody here agrees that SPF and ERA are top tier cobra replicas. The main reason I chose SPF is the fact that it's probably the easiest cobra replica to sell, because the construction is so uniform and consistant. That being said, it's price, albeit slightly lower than an ERA, is rock stable and it's easy to assess price based on comparable features and drive trains. Whatever cobra you drive, you're always welcomed by other owner groups, everybody likes admiring other cars and have others admire their own.

[decooney]

Hi Bandit 1,

just as an FYI... and this is off topic a bit, but i'm not sure what drag racers you are speaking with for reference on the FEs and 460/514s?.

I know of at least one FE engine builder here in CA that builds more horsepower out of his "breathing" FEs than he gets out of the 460s/514s on a dyno. He (Tom Lucas) builds both, and dynos both regularly. I am not questioning parts availaiblity or cost, but just stating some information to pass along for thought about drag racing with FEs today.

Tom has commented to me that his FEs are lighter, breath well, and produce more horsepower on the dyno. And, he says when it comes to drag cars, he'll take the FE every time. He's told me more than once that most people are still applying 70s technology and builds to the FEs even today. We put Tom to the challenge to see... so Tom came up with an experiment drag car just to see what it will do this year. He built an entire car from scratch in just 4 months.

Tom's very first trip to the drag strip last weekend in Sacramento was a 10.79 ET at 127.3 MPH with a full-dress (full interior) street/strip 1967 Mustang. Weighs in at 3,100lbs. A simple Mustang with an FE. It was his very first try out. It pulls the front wheels off of the ground if he wants. He was launching it slow last weekend. He is shooting for the high 9s now just because the 10.79 was pretty easy. If he can launch it well and get traction, it will be cool to see. This recent Mustang buildup runs what he calls his 70% FE 427 Side Oiler drag motor running 700HP. No Nitrous, all-motor, running 11.8:1 compression. His 9.9:1 compression mild street FEs develop 519HP. The #2 street drag Mustang (may be in development next year) will be running a 15:1 compression Side Oiler 427 with an approximated 940HP.

According to Tom, FEs with current technology are Back, and he wants to share with us what an old FE (with updated technology) can do in simple street drag racing once again! Its pretty cool for us die hard FE guys out there to see. Just thought I'd share this...

Give him a call if you want to verify this. Tom is a good guy. Also, he takes brand new 460s/514s right from Ford and blueprints them as well if you are interested.

Contact: Tom Lucas, FE Specialties at (916) 339-0427

[BANDIT 1]

I think that a very good point that was brought up was that the reason most ERA 427 S.O. Cobra's cost more than most Superformance Cobra's (with small blocks or Big Blocks) is the added expense of the very costly FE engine.

Now about the FE V.S 429/460 engine family...


While everyone (and every builder...) may have their opinion it is pretty much fact that FE engines are not even close to the engine a 429/460 engine is. Here are the reasons... While the new Shelby block and new head technology for the FE engines have gotten better, the 429/460 engine has been the Ford racing engine of choice for over 30 years (Nascar, Pro Stock, Monster Trucks, Drag Boats, etc...). 99% of the big Block Ford engines being raced today are 429/460 engines. Here is a example of how far behind the FE technology is, when I was in high school (1987), I was going to purchase a Ricky Smith 460 stroker engine package that was detuned to make 950 Horsepower (these were the IHRA drag motors of the time), in the dual 4BBL. version they were putting out over 1,500 horsepower with no nitrous/supercharger or anything else.

I kid you not when I say that I am a BIG 427 FE engine lover! As I said before, I had a 650 Horsepower 427 FE powered 1969 Mach 1 "pro street" Mustang and it ran like a "bat out of hell", the engine with over 30 Nitrous (extra 350 Horsepower) runs down the track, idled and ran like it was new.

[REAL 1]

I think its important to point out that the "deathtrap" tag Bandit 1 puts on the original Cobra has nothing to do with chasis design of the 427. The 427 Chasis design was a good design and the first 4 corner coil over chasis made in production! The dangerousness of the Cobra, as I understand (I don't profess to be a racer but read enough to know something) comes from its short wheel base.

I am confident that a properly set up CSX will handle with and possibly out handle a similarly set up SPF or any other.

Cobras and thier replicas are still relatively dangerous cars by virtue of their tremendous Hp matched with a relatively short wheel base.

Whether 427 or 289 you always had to know what you were doing to drive aggressively or race the car. Those that didn't respect the cars or know what they were doing many times had their lives cut short by the snake.

[Hal Copple]

someone asked about ride height on the SPF's chassis: The SPF's have a simple 8.8 Ford IRS, aluminum diff housing, Traction-Loc diff, with custom axles. Simple, light, and very robust. Come with custom valved Bilstein dampers (shocks to the American chaps), and H & R springs. Earlier cars had AVO's, by the way. Threaded "coil over's" on all four corners.

There are suspension modifications available, i have for instance the Olthoff larger rear anti roll bar, makes it easy to control oversteer. I also have their full race lightweight custom Bilstein's with HyperCoil springs, on any SPF you can dial the suspension up or down in a few minutes. I like the security of a slightly higher ride height, in that want my car up slightly for rail road tracks, speed bumps, and sloped entrances, that sort of thing.

So on an SPF, you can set the ride height pretty much where you want it, all it takes is an Allen wrench and some greasy hands.

I would never say that one of these replicas is better than the other . I would be pleased to own either one. I just happen to have an SPF as my daily driver. I have found that it is an exceedingly simple car to modify and maintain. I have seen many other handsome replicas by other manufaturers too.

I am pleased to say that Car Craft magazine has a nice photo and and a few comments about my car in this month's issue. The editor was smart enough to say only that it is a replica, without being specific as to which one.

[Hal Copple]

As for the performance of the 427 FE motor, it does seem interesting and even perplexing to me that just about all the contemporary quarter mile times of the originals, and the later re-tests that are published, put the quarter mile at about 13 seconds or so, with trap speeds of say 110. Perhaps those were hand timed speeds, on non-prepared drag strips.

I was asking this of a friend of mine, who is very knowledgable about Shelby history, why the original cars seemed so relatively slow, compared to what I and others can easily run nowadays.

I mentioned the 12.2 quarter mile of a 428 car from the mid '60's as part of the discussion. My friend told me that that one was no 428, but a custom, specially built 427 engine.

I don't doubt it, as there was so much covert engine tweaking back then, that reading about those Muscle Car tests makes great reading. For instance, the famous GTO 389 car, was actually a race prepped 421 car!

I am well aware of the GT MKII 40 prowess, and have a healthy respect for the great engines of the '60's. I have no doubt that with modern technology, an FE can be made into a formidable powerplant. Even the current drag magazines comment on how much easier it is today to make predigous engine power, compared to the '60's engines.

And Evan, Mac DeMere, senior test driver for Michelien here in SC, who drives instrumented cars all day at their Laurens test track, has instructed me and my son in my car at Charlotte, running Hoosier slicks. He told me that my car, thus equipped, is easily a 1.25-1.3 G car. Having ridden with him, with the car so loose yet in his total control at 100+ mph in the turns in the infield course, with the Armco a few feet away, I can say with confidence that the handling capabilities of my SPF and your CSX car are so far above our abilities, we could be in pedal cars compared to what professonal driversr can do in yours or mine.

Roland Linder, two time LeMans winner for Porsche, his Ferrari F-40 featured in the Dec FORZA, has driven my car on a race track, and told Chris and I that it was a superb car, with wonderful transitions. What ever that means. I think he meant it cornered pretty well. I am sure he would have said the same of your car.

[REAL 1]

Hal: I'm probably dangerous even in a peddle car.

[BANDIT 1]

Mr. Real 1:

You can ask any Shelby race car driver and they will tell you,
the 427 Cobra was their least favorite race car. I did not make this up, it is in EVERY article I have ever read about Cobra race car drivers. They all say the same thing, they wanted a 351 engined Cobra and Ford wanted the 427 engine. When I say it was about the chassis of the time, I am also talking about the short wheelbase. It only makes sense that technology gets better 30+ years later.

[Jerry Chabino]

Both great cars but I'll keep my Unique

[Ray R]

The deposit has been sent. Again, thanks to you all for your help in this process.



And the check goes to........



.....drum roll....




.....SPF.

[Chaplin]

Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Nah, just kidding. You will be very happy with your SPF. You really couldn't go wrong either way. Good luck and keep us posted.

[REAL 1]

Bandit 1: Funny. I have done alot of reading and don't recall reading anything about former 427 racers saying the 427 Cobra was their "least" favorite car to race. Can you cite me to references? You say this was said in every article you read? What former 427 racers told you it was their least favorite car to race or said it in print so I know who to ask?

Where any of the drivers you refer to the ones who drove the 427 Cobra to any of its SCCA A production titles?

I have, however, read articles where drivers indicated a preference for the 289. So?

Motor Trend just established the 427 Cobra as quicker through their slalom course than the 289. This and the 427's SCCA record I think clearly establishes the 427 as a competent racer in the right hands.

So if we are talking about short wheel base when we say "chasis" doesn't the SPF have a 90" wheelbase too? And if both the SPF and the CSX have the same wheel base what technological advantage does the SPF have in the handling department? Just curious.

[Doug Axelrod]

I have read that some that have race-driven the original Cobra and the SPF find the replica to have better handling, at least in the curves, attributed to a stiffer chassis. I'd be interested in whether anyone has direct knowledge, e.g. Bondurant or Oltoff.

[James Baldwin]

Congrats Ray! I know you will enjoy it. And at 6'4", you'll fit just fine.

[BANDIT 1]

Mr. Real 1:

If you are a "shelby Cobra" expert then you should know this is common knowledge. I should hope that in 30+ years technology has improved. Why would there be any questioning that the "original" Cobra's and the Superformance Cobra's would drive differently? The cars are almost 100% totally different under the body. The body is different, the engine, transmission, seats, battery location, brakes, fan location, etc...

I never said the Shelby race car drivers said the 289 Cobra was faster than a 427 Cobra, I said they thought they were lucky to be alive after racing one. Shouldn't it only make sense that a driver driving a 289 Cobra in a race "on the edge" and a driver driving a 427 Cobra in a race "on the edge" would be worlds apart.

Quit taking everything so personal, I belong to a local Cobra club with all kinds of Cobra's. They are all great in there own way, period. We have several CSX4000 series Cobra's in the club (and some "originals") and they are a sight to behold. On a summer day the sun shines on the Aluminum body and the car itself send a certain kind of a rush that in my book only a "original" or "new" Shelby Cobra can have. The 500 horsepower 427 S.O. looks awesome in the engine bay and sounds even better. Those are all things my Superformance Cobra don't have, but if we pull out on the hiway they all know that my 110 Octane burning 650 horsepower 520 c.i. 5 speed car is going to kick the $hit out of them.

So what, they are all nice in there own way...

[TerrysSPF]

Good choice Ray! .....but seriously, when you're choosing between 2 companies like SPF and ERA, you couldn't have made a "bad" choice. BOTH cars / companies are great and have great people working for them. You're in good company choosing the SPF though:

"When I think back on my racing career, the biggest thrills of my life were being involved with Shelby American, winning Le Mans with Dan Gurney in 1964 in the Daytona Coupe and being part of the Cobra team that won the World Championship in 1965. I am often asked what my favorite street Cobra would be - whether I would prefer the 289 or the 427 roadster. I don't really have to think about that - my favorite exist. It's the Superformance with a 351 engine. It is the car that Shelby SHOULD have built - a coil spring 427 chassis with a small block engine. And Superformance is the best of all replicas by far. I have one and at my driving school in Phoenix I often teach new Superformance owners how to drive them". - Bob Bondurant

"During the 60's I was developer and driver for John Willment Racing in England and I was part of the Cobra team that won the World Sports Car Championship in 1965. I worked very close with Jim Price, President of Superformance, during the development phase of the Superformance prototypes, in my view the finest replica of the finest road-going sports car ever created - so much so that I chose to become a Superformance dealer. When I sit behind the familiar instrument cluster and windscreen of this superbly detailed and authentic replica, its not difficult to figure out why I compared and eventually selected Superformance as the brand with which I prefer to be associated". - Bob Olthoff

[KeithBrown]

Originally posted by BANDIT 1


Mr. Real 1:

If you are a "shelby Cobra" expert then you should know this is common knowledge. ...

Bandit 1,

I too have heard the reference you refered to, but I also heard it was an old wives tale and couldn't be confirmed. Maybe someone like one of the Kirkham's could clarify this.

Sometimes - just sometimes - Evan is right

Regards,

Keith

[REAL 1]

I don't profess to be an expert on Shelby Cobras. I do have some knowledge though.

You said that every racer who raced the 427 said it was there least favorite car. I asked for specific references since you said it was in "every" article you read.

I do agree that it is common knowledge (common knowledge to people familiar with Cobras anyway) that you better know what you are doing if you are going to "race" a Cobra. BB or SB primarily due to its short wheel base.

I also agree that automotive technology has advanced in 30 years. Ok. Agreed. I also agree that the SPF and the CSX are quite different in frame/chasis design. Different or new doesn't necessarily mean better or equate to providing an advantage.

I simply wanted to know what technological advancements or advantages the SPF has over a CSX. Both have 90 inch wheelbases both have similar track width. I know that SPF will say the SPF chasis is stiffer. Maybe. I'm not convinced and I'm not convinced it is even a difference that will make a difference assuming equal drivers and suspension set up. I'm not saying it won't. I'm just saying I'm not sure I believe there is much difference.

I have tremendous respect for B. Bondurant and Oltoff as drivers and their accomplishments. I, however, must discount somewhat their statements based on their own ties to SPF and their SPF buisness efforts.

As to a built up SB producing 650 hp all I can say is I am sure it is very fast. Faster than the original cars ever were I'm sure. But thats not what I'm into. Doesn't impress me.

An original spec 450hp to 500hp 427SO is all I'll ever need to scare the $hit out of myself and friends, wow'em at cruise night and blow off the most recent "Fast & Furious" wannabee.

In the end I still think the SPF is a very nice product.