Insurance issue/Cobra charter group. Your vote is NEEDED!! Input very important!

[Bill Wells]

while this will be an unpopular opinion, i think this thread and the other similar thread will cause more harm/damage than good. while well intended by Klayfish , DV and others i am afraid it opens up a can of worms with the insurance co's. some are still sleeping (hard to believe) and replicas are not a problem to them yet, or not recoginzed yet, or no action taken yet. others are already dropping replicas like stink on dooh dooh..

however, any action as proposed while it sounds good , opens up the issue for review by all companies. i can hear them now. IF THE OWNERS THINK THEY ARE UNSAFE AND FEEL A NEED FOR INSPECTION/ COMPLIANCE THERE MUST BE AN ISSUE SO WHY ARE WE INSURING THEM ? or lets double our rates ? or lets do this and that....

state laws, federal laws, local laws regarding safety items etc are entirely a different matter....

THE REAL CONCERN TO ME ARE THE DRIVERS, NOT THE CARS !

we can inspect cars all we want but the vast majority of lame brain idiot unsafe drivers in these cars is what needs to be inspected....and a Bondurant type driving course makes them/us better drivers but does NOT change the attitudes of most . Those that are unsafe drivers today will most likely continue to be so.

sorry folks, i just think this highlights an issue that will become more of an issue because of it. safe driving to all. bill.

[CSX 4039]

Topic for a new thread...
You know, aside from wanting $1000/ car for his Children's Fund (not all such a bad idea) wasn't the other part of Shelby's suit's purpose to maintain the integrity of his legacy? (The quality of a real Cobra). I think it is ironic some of the people who bashed the heck out of him, and now might not be able to get insurance may now bash poorly built Cobra's....

When you're 80 years old- money is something. Intregrity and legacy is everything.

[casaleenie]

"we

[kountzecobra]

Aren't there a few members in the insurance business? Seems if this is such a good idea, they would be jumping on the bandwagon. Or maybe they haven't heard. I have no opinion at this time.

[Double Venom]

Kountz,
There are, they have!
Bill, like wise. Not to worry, we don't have to worry about waking any sleeping giants. They are already awake! I've said this at least 4 times over the various threads in the last week.
"They" are already watching and waiting. Hopefully they will wait for us to play catch up.

DV..Lets play!

[klayfish]

Bumpster,
Parrish-Heacock is not an insurance company, they are an agent. They sell policies for companies such as Great American. Not that there is ANYTHING wrong with them, they are probably the formost expert in the industry for agents, and probably Great Americans biggest and most looked to agent for classic cars. We love them.

Bill,
I understand you point. But keeping our heads in the sand will only make things MUCH worse. They already are well aware of the problems. They are well aware how many companies have dropped Cobras, us joining together won't tell them something they don't already know. It can only help us.

Steve

[southernfriedcj]

What is the difference from an insurance company's standpoint of a home built 500hp Cobra replica and a homebuilt '32 Ford replica with 500hp? It would seem to me that there would be no difference. I've read DV's report about several Cobras burning due to mechanical malfunctions, wouldn't the same % of '32 Ford replicas burn also(all things being equal)?
If the difference between the Cobra replica and the '32 Ford replica is that folks take the Cobra replica to the track, I would think an insurance company wouldn't care since insurance coverage wouldn't extend to the track.
As far as some middle aged yahoos(us) driving and overpowered, unsafe car on the street, what does the shape of the body got to do with insurance coverage?

[tabester]

All
I have a couple of points and maybe a question or two.

How could a Cobra kit which costs at least $30,000 (kit plus everything else and several hundred hours of assembly time) and turn keys for around $50,000, bought by, in general mature, middle aged males, be any worse than a 16 year old with daddy's beemer or even worse pulling out the old rusted 1978 F-150 death mobile. How far will the organization go for us. I've seen the terms crumple zones and air bags a couple of times in these posts. Will we bow to the insurance companies on these demands.

And finally, I know this is going to wrinkle some feathers....

What is it going to cost us, someone will get paid for representing us setting up inspection stations, paying for legal council. I'm not nieve enough nor would I expect any of our members to take on such a large task with no compensation.

Kirk

[Bumpster]

Steve - I understand the difference between an agency, or brokerage, and an insurance company. My wife has been in the insurance business for twenty-some years. My point was that Parish-Heacock would be a valuable source of input from the insurance industry regarding the industry's viewpoint of this whole effort. The fact that Parish-Heacock deals with many underwriters gives them insight into how the insurance companies look at Cobras. They are the perfect middle man, being the broker that deals in probably the most Cobra applications. I'm sure they could tell us, as a group or individually, what we might do to enhance our standing with the insurance companies they represent. They have a stake in this too, as they pursue applications from Cobra owners. It would be a win-win situation to contact them, in my opinion. Unless we have some assurance that this effort will be beneficial, we may be wasting our time. Logic seems to dictate that it will help us as it has the hot rodders, but I would like to be sure of that.

Bumpster

[Double Venom]

Ahhh, a quiet Sunday morning. Got up late, drinking my fourth cup of coffee, four pieces of delicious hand delivered toast, and only one Cobra to paint at the shop today. It is going to be a good day. I'm going to slow down and clear the air, clear the mind and write pages of thoughts. May I suggest if you really plan on reading this, you might like a large cup of coffee too?

Let''s get the day started!

Questions abound and all good ones!

I was hoping the obvious wouldn't come up, but it has. And I do not know how to handle the egg and the chicken question.

Is a '34 Ford with a fiberglass body, custom post '34 frame, 500 HP motor, AC, Pwr. Windows, Tilt, Cruise, Pwr. Brakes, Automatic, electric lift trunk and hood, a "Kit Car?"

OF COURSE IT IS! Now go to any NSRA meet, stand in the middle of Thirty plus thousand of these cars on display and yell, "I like all your KIT cars!" Fella you had better have a small army behind you or at least your Cobra fired up and ready for the big getaway!

It's the name, the stigma, and personally I think it sucks. A side note that I find quite interesting, almost no one, has called these cars, "HOT RODS," but only Streetrods. Twenty-five years ago, OK, maybe a little longer, no one knew what the hell a "Streetrod" was. HOTRODS were it! Bad to the bone, scary fast and one of the most unsafe vehicles on the road!

NSRA: Changed that, took some time but they changed it! Now the entire HOTROD group has been forgotten, and only remembered as "Streetrods." A nice, quaint name that conjectures up images of custom build classic cars. Mostly guys and family's in their early 40's and up. They absolutely never drive them, except from one show to another. Rarely if ever putting on a display of speed. (Ooops!)

With this new name and attitude change they went from the "Uninsurable" to the Highly insurable."

When a magazine was devoted to "homebuilds" what ever they were, the Publishers couldn't use Streetrods or a similar name, didn't fit anyway, they came up with "KIT CAR". At one time the stigma attached to this name did fit and said it all. Take your basic beetle chop the heck out of it and make a dunebuggy! Most of these weren't street legal and were actually used to run and race the sand dunes.

I have hated the name "KIT CAR" from the onset. I refuse to call any of our cars as "kits"! For the lack of a better name I have always called them, "Reproductions."

If you want a "KIT" car simply go to your local hobby store or drugstore and by a "Revell" kit to build. Now, THAT is a KIT CAR!

Another goal that I have is to get the magazine(s) to drop the Kit Car name and come up with something more appropriate. Now talk about ruffling feathers! Organizing our group to stand behind and support some very basic safety rules is going to be much easier!

Tabestar, you can't wrinkle any feathers around here with a questions like that! That Sir is a legitimate question. Of course once this gets started there will be a fee of some sort. Just paying the attorney and filing fees is going to cost money, administrative costs are going to be huge. There are going to be costs associated with this that I haven't even thought of yet.

However, for the moment, I am asking no one to spend any money! My attorney has already agreed to look into this for a minimal fee or less. Steve, Klayfish is donating hundreds of hours of his time with the insurance company's, and as for me, well I can survive on chocolate Chip cookies for another couple of years.

My goal is to get our safety agenda up and running, show everyone how simple it really is and prove to them the old adage, "United we stand-Divided we fall" truly applies to our family!

If this works and I know it will, then our family can decide just how big and "official" they want to go. We will eventually have to have dues if you will. How much, and what they will be used for will have to come at a later date. My immediate thoughts are we will need a professional book keeper to come in, set up the account(s) and keep immaculate "open" records. The Mrs. and I are not well off by any stretch of the imagination, but we both agree that we will do what ever we can to get this past the initial phase. I don't think anyone will have an objection of eventually paying a small fee to keep this going once they are able to easily obtain insurance and at a reasonable cost.

I see to the future of our group, renting real race tracks all over the country, with real instructors where you could take your car and learn how to truly be a trained driver. ("CRANKY" are you listening?") An example, Mid-Ohio one of the greatest tracks in the country being rented an entire day with all the amenities just for our Cobras. Or, Sears Point, or Putnam. Pick a track where a large number of our Cobras can get to it and have a ball.

It's a dream I have. A dream that will come true with the help of Steve and everyone here getting involved. Safer cars, tons of fun, and saving money in the mix.

It just can't get better than that! We simply have to do this.

Out of coffee and the toast is gone. Ya' all have a great day!

DV...

[CCX33911]

Having just received my notice from Parrish that my rates are going to go through the roof in April, I will (in the short term) be making a move to State Farm or the like. Hopefully as a group we could have some impact on this situation, etc.

Thanks
Gary

[Turk]

Gary,
Try Farmers...
I don't know what the fuss is about? I am paying less for my Cobra Insurance than I am paying for my Harley.
Under $450.00 a year to insure it.
I have an impeccable driving record. I have my home owners etc. through the same.

I think some people are asked to pay more due to their driving record, as well as if you leave all your other insuranc in tact with one company and search for Cobra insurance with another, you get treated like a step child.

If your life insurance family car, motorcycles, boats etc. as well as your homeowners was with the same firm you would be pleasantly surprised.

If the Insurance company does NOT insure Cobras and specialty vehicles, find one that does and take all your insurance business to them and let the Cobra be part of the package not the only car insured. I think paying up to $1000.00 to insure a Cobra for a year is NOT unreasonable.

I think some of us have been spoiled with lower premiums up to this point, and any increase seems to be ruffling feathers.

I am still troubled by what I have to pay for motorcycle insurance, considering it sits parked most of the time..

TURK

[klayfish]

Turk,
The reason for the fuss is the recent move by many insurance companies to stop writing Cobras all together. It isn't just that it's getting expensive, we've seen lots of people ask where they can get insurance for their Cobra. I'm concerned that if we don't do something, it will get much worse in time. That's all. I've gotten lots of personal e-mails from those who know I work for an insurance company telling me they just can't find insurance.

Tabester,
I'm not sure how or why they see a 17 year old with a BMW any different. I'm not 17 (unfotunately ), but I'm pretty sure it is very expensive to insure a teenager. I don't think the insurance companies would ever ask for airbags or crumple zones. They've never done it with street rods, 'Vettes, '55 Chevys, Model Ts, so I truly don't think they'd do it with us. And personally, no I would not bow to that. Definitely not. I love my Cobra. I want it safe. I wear my harness. But I'd sell my car first before I put an airbag or ABS in it.
You know, I never thought about the money issue. I've never created a group like this, so I can't answer it well. DV addressed it well. Am I looking for any profit? No way. I'll say it here and now, if someone wanted to pay me for this, I'll donate that money to charity. I want no money or personal glory. I just want to help all Cobra owners if I can. That's all.

Bumpster,
I apologize if my post sounded like an insult. I didn't mean it that way. My company has a very close relationship with Parrish Heacock. They are experts, as you correctly point out. I will happily speak with them (I actually will be doing that anyway soon for my work) to get their opinions. I didn't finish my thought on the last post. Actually, I've kind of forgotten my train of thought last night. Ugh. We can ask for their opinions, it can't hurt.

Steve

[Dan Semko]

This would seem like a prime opportunity for ALL of the cobra manufacturers. If they joined the cause, established the baseline underwriter foundation and asked all of the owners to participate, they'd corner the market. They could easily assess a $200-500 fee in their cars during the build to provide the financial base for a major underwriter! Rather than being told what you can or have do, why not have the people directly involved with our passion provide an alternative path for insurance problems?
Medically self insured companies have done this for years and used this base to "attract" insurance companies to underwrite "their" plans. Make the insurance companies come to you rather than you crawling to them.

[tabester]

Klayfish
My comparison was meant to state that there are a hell of a lot of other gruops other than we as Cobra owners that should be under the micro-scope. My use of the BMW was just what I deal with up here in Chicago. The important thing is the age. Yes they pay more but how often do company's refuse to insure these individuals. As for the F-150 analysis I have seen farm trucks in southern Illinois that have no floor boards, the fuel tank is a 55 gal drum in the bed and use the emergency brake as much as the hydraulic brake system. With the money and the time we put into these cars we should be far above most groups. Horse power does not even come into the equation. I have seen several V-8 S-10's not to mention the V-8 Vega's of the early eighties. My first car was a Pinto with a 302 Boss. Talk about a death trap. How many irresponsible individuals can afford a Cobra.

Kirk

[RACER X #99]

Wow DV,
You mean someday Cobra guys will get together and attend Drivers schools at REAL racetracks with REAL instructors.(not the guys that attend DVSF)

I guess those farmers fields we have been running at for 10 years are not up to your standards. Watkins Glen, Lime Rock Park , VIR in Danville VA. Quite a few tracks on the west coast are being driven by Cobras/replicas all the time.
And those SCCA drivers that I had years ago for instructors, the ones now running in the Trans-Am series were not real instructors.
How about sticking to commenting on something you know something about, running a moving car show.

I'll stick to what I know, racing"on the track".

Thank you very much,

Roger Davis aka Cranky

[Dwight]

COUNT ME IN.

[Bumpster]

Steve - No need for apology, no offense taken. I was concerned that you missed my point about the value of an opinion from an agency like P-H or any other one that deals regularly with Cobras and knows why we have problems with the companies they represent. If we can focus our efforts on the problems they identify, we will be most effective. Maybe inspections are important to them, maybe not. Let's find out before we set up an organization to do inspections and then find out it won't do us any good. Our goal is to overcome the objections and negative feelings that insurance companies seem to be having about Cobras. It will be easier to do that if we know what those objections and feelings are, don't you think?

Bumpster

[DaveSemko]

I think someone should dig into the idea of self-insurance for a group of people... Post Assesment companies, and insurance associations were around long before the insurance companies as we know them today.

Fundamentals would be that everyone pays a premium to a common fund. A portion of the fund must be liquid, the rest can be in interest bearing accounts (mutuals etc.). The association would obtain underwriting for losses larger than a set figure (secondary insurance market). Anything lower than the set figure would be paid by the association directly.

Not sure what all the legal requirements might be to self insure; however, it seems like a practical solution to our problem. Must not be too difficult - lots of companies do it today. I think the hurdle my be the cost of entry, and the size of the group required.

Wouldn't it be an interesting day when the Cobra owners can call their insurance companies and negotiate for lower premiums, else they would loose the business to the self insurance group.

Anyone have any insider knowledge?

AS an afterthought - it seems reasonable that there would be some qualifications for joining the group. Inspections, minimal equipment etc. Perhaps there would be different risk levels that go with the amount of equipment (or lack of). This is nothing new.

Dave (the quieter younger brother)

[Double Venom]

Damn Cranky, you really did earn your name!

Obviously you took my comment as a slam. I am here to tell you quite the opposite was intended! This was meant for you, in support of your ideas and hopes that "WE" could get more Cobra drivers to the track, any track so that they too might gain some much wanted / needed hints and directions from the Pro's.

Fella, I have no idea why you think I am against "racers"? Just because we don't have a track close enough for the Fling, you think I'm against racing? Just so you know I have built, many, many "track ready" Cobras over the years with the DV II being the latest.

On the other hand I've never driven roundy round in my life, but I've been a passanger many times. ( I used to teach Hi-Speed driving to rookie cops- does that count?) I do a pretty darn good straight line too!

Damn..., "damned if you do, damned if you don't!"

Dan: Wouldn't that be something to behold!

DV..you can please some of the people....