Substituting Shelby block for Iron SO

[REAL 1]

Mike: I beg to differ. There are extremely valid reasons for using original iron. The first being its is original equipment. Its the REAL deal. While some may want the aluminum engine for its weight advantage and/or heat dissapating ability which are pluses to be sure there is in my mind a clear advantage of having an original 427SO provided its not a service block and is in good condition.

While many here, including myself don't have orignial Cobras many here strive to build their cars to as close to original spec as possible down to the smallest detail, even power characteristics. The original's didn't have aluminum blocks, Eldebrock heads etc. Period.

While the Shelby Aluminum block is a replacement FE block it is not an FE. It wasn't made in Dearborne and is not a true 427 Side Oiler. Thats what the originals had and thats the gold standard as far as I'm concerned.

While my CSX may not be original and it may not qualify for Pebble Beach Concours today who knows about 30 years from now?

I wanted my Cobra, although not an original Shelby to be exactly like its forefathers and powered by the same powerplant ie an iron 427SO. I wanted a my Cobra to be "exactly as it was" or as close to it as I could get. When most people look at these cars they look for originality, at least I do.

All that being said I would definitely consider putting an aluminum 427 in my car if anything ever happened to my engine.

As to the aluminum motor being "better". Maybe. Maybe not. Whats most important is the quality of the build and the parts used. I can easily give you scenarios of an iron 427 SO being a better motor than an aluminum block. Alot of it is builder and parts used.

I do know that if my engine was strong enough for racing in the 60's its strong enough for cruisin now and going for ice cream for many many years. A well build 427SO with a good block offers more performance and durability than 99% of us here need or can use. That includes the "racers".

[RACER X #99]

So BB vs sb was put to rest .

Now we have the FE iron vs the FE aluminum debate.

You guys sure are funny.


So far only three Cobra replica makers (that I know of) offer a track only car.

Anybody know the engine of choice?

[REAL 1]

SB due to cost.

[Turk]

An Aluminum block based engine and a 427 SO (iron) engine cost the same. Exactly the same, other than the difference of cost of the block.

You are not going to save or spend more or less for everything that goes in and outside the engine.

Only difference is the cost of the block. You should be able to buy an aluminuim block for $6,000. and an iron block for $5,000 (NOS). So the aluminum block engine will cost $1000.00 more. That is all.

If someone gave you an SO block as a gif, then the aluminum block engine will cost $6000.00 more.

If you end up buying a date coded SO block for $9000.00 you will spend $3000.00 more for the completed engine than you would have spent if you had gone aluminum.

I can't for the life of me understand what other components anyone thinks they will save money on going this or that way.
What machining expenses are spared by choosing one over the other?

Let's face it. They all cost a bunch. For the type of driving I do, I wanted the additional weight in the front end of my car to offset the weight of 42 gallons of fuel in the rear.

It does get a little light in the front end at high speeds. You start loosing steering.

TURK
Bragging rights were secondary. I think the people with aluminum blocks have some sort of bragging rights too. More modern, and lighter and easier to pick up the phone and order another for replacement, if they had to.
I have to go camp on eBay, if I needed a replacement!

[Allan A]

I think an argument could be made that if you have a second-generation CSX car with a CSX Numbered Aluminum motor it will be worth more than a second generation CSX car with an old 427 SO. The CSX/CSX will be the new original........................

I can hardly wait to hear the response.

Allan

[REAL 1]

Allen: Hmmm. Interesting point. No one knows for sure what things will be worth or what will be worth more.

Both original Shelby chasis and the new ones have CSX #'s. The originals had 427SOs that had only Ford date code #s.

The "all" new Shelby 427 block utilizes a "new" CSX Shelby # not a FE code #s as original.

The counter argument is that since the new CSX is a literal clone of the original except new it is the same car. CSX #'s on the chasis like the original. For those truly wishing to "reincarnate" the original or create a real "time machine" going back to all '65 spec down to the last detail the only choice is the real deal, an original fire breath'n 427SO. Same car (except new and same engine exactly).

Counter point.

[decooney]

Turk,

Wow, 42 gallons - now thats a fuel TANK.

At full level, you should be able to pull the front wheels right off the ground...

[southernfriedcj]

Originally posted by Turk



Only difference is the cost of the block.

Turk, is there a difference in longevity or maintenance, hence cost?



I have to go camp on eBay, if I needed a replacement! [/quote]

Bill Parham, at Southern Automotive, has a shop full, both used and NOS. The only thing Ebay is good for is Kirkhams.

[Allan A]

Real,

I just like the sound of Aluminum 427/Aluminum 427, CSX/CSX fire breathing monster. One of these days......

Allan

[REAL 1]

Allen: I like the sound of CSX/427SO

To each his own.

[Allan A]

Ok,

Here you go Aluminum 427/Aluminum 427SO, CSX/CSX fire breathing monster. One of these days. "Mike said it is a side oiler'

Allan

[REAL 1]

I read what Mike said. I'm not convinced. Steve Sunshine knows these cars inside and out and is fully familiar with the Shelby block.

My understanding is that it is really a center oiler. Regardless, its clear its not the same block and does not oil the same as the 427SO (for better or worse). As Mike notes their simialarity ends with the number of head bolts and cylinders.

There is only one REAL 427SO. The original.

[PatBuckley]

Evan -

You are right. There IS only one 427SO - the one that came in the original car.

Oh wait! You say that your car came with out an engine? Must be a replica or a continuation or a whatever but it is not an original.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter if you put a side oiler or a Shelby engine in a car that is NOT an original.

Of course you can say it over and over and over and over BUT IT IS NOT AN ORIGINAL. Your desire to make it as close to an original as possible is fine - good for you. But it is not an original.

PB

[SFfiredog]

Originally posted by REAL 1


I read what Mike said. I'm not convinced. Steve Sunshine knows these cars inside and out and is fully familiar with the Shelby block.

My understanding is that it is really a center oiler. Regardless, its clear its not the same block and does not oil the same as the 427SO (for better or worse). As Mike notes their simialarity ends with the number of head bolts and cylinders.

There is only one REAL 427SO. The original.

There is only one original Ford V-8. The flat head

Through photographs I will attempt to explain how a good oiling system works. The Shelby block uses the same style oiling routing system as nearly every NASCAR racing engine (circa 2003, not 1965) uses.
Forgive my ignorance for not knowing who Steve Sunshine is. I hope I don't offend him but either you are not understanding his explaination of the Shelby 427 oil system or he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. If the latter is true one might want to find someone else to build their Shelby 427 engine.
Look at the photos. This is my Shelby block, CSX 287
Yes, I marked up my pretty new block with a Sharpie pen just for you guys!
A: priority main oil passage.

B: Camshaft bore(notice how the oil passage runs along the SIDE of the cam, not on the top, or center, hence "side oiler"

:C lifter galley plug

Notice the green wire running from the oil filter pad, DIRECTLY from the oil pump, DIRECTLY to the main oil galley. Add to this the size of the oil galley is easily 3 times larger than a factory "original" side oiler.
Once again the reason the Shelby block doesn't have the main oil galley in the "original" side oiler position is the block is much easier to repair in case of an "accident"
In my next post there is photo showing a yellow wire leading from the main galley to the crankshaft journal.
Guys, it just doesn't get any more direct (or better) than this. Since none of our cars are original, let's talk about "orginal"
427 blocks and their strength.
I have 1 side oiler block and 2 center oiler blocks (sorry, none for sale). The horsepower levels I am shooting for with my tunnel port is beyond what I believe is the strength levels of the blocks I have. All the blocks I have have cylinder walls with major thrust
thicknesses below .175". My side oiler, (C5AE G) has a minor thrust thickness of .090 on a finished bore. This is fine for a 450 to 500 hp street engine but considering how much I'm spending on parts I don't want to take a chance on it at power levels over 600 hp.
As far as FE oiling systems are concerned I can modify a 390 oil system to spin 8000 RPM safely.
For power's sake I would take a 427 center oiler with .200" cylinder wall thickness over a 427 side oiler with .100" cylinder wall thickness ANY day.
Also, if I were to grind off the "CS" casting on the front of my block and paint it black 99.9 % of even the knowing people could never tell I had an aluminum block unless they crawled under my car.
You can try your best to convince me that 50 cents is worth more than a dollar, but I'm not buyin"...
Donations for all this valuable information I've been giving can be sent to the "Help Mike finish his really expensive car fund"
--Mike

[SFfiredog]

and again

[Specialk]

Evan,

I spoke with Mike Le Fevers, the Shelby Enterprises FE engine project director. What he said is almost verbatim what SFfiredog has posted.

[Turk]

SoutherfriedAlumo

I really can't tell what the longevity of aluminum motors vs. Iron ones are.

There are still 35 year old iron blocks floating around, and still running.
If you call me in 35 years from now we can compare the longevity of the other.
For some reason they line the cylinders with iron sleeves in aluminum blocks. I am going to talk to my builder and see if the reverse will hold up as well.

To be serious for a moment, I don't have a clue. It appears aluminum is the choice of material used for current high tech motors. So, I can only assume it lends itself to better engine design and weight reduction and who knows what else.

In my case I am very content with the material used in probably 90% of all the engines in the world. I am NOT a racer, and I couldn't care less about the ability to squeeze more HP out of a Shelby Block than a comparable iron block. I do like the additional weight.

If I wanted more HP, I would be doing something totally different. If I wanted longevity, I definetely be putting in something else. For me it is a comprimise of what floats my boat. It is authentic ENOUGH, and it is a proven design, that does not take away from the value of the car.

Besides, I won't be keeping the car long enough to worry about how long the damn motor lasts. Who cares?

TURK

[Turk]

decooney
No, the front wheels won't come of the ground. You got me confused with someone else who have no weight in the engine compartment. Light weights!!

SFfiredog
Stop this madness. Stick to something you know something about. Engines!


TURK

[southernfriedcj]

Evan, I have always stated that I agreed your car is a real Shelby Cobra. But I disagree with the Shelby aluminum block not being correct(or as correct) for a replica or a 4000 series Cobra. IMHO, if Shelby issues his dispensation, it's a real Cobra motor reguardless of who made it, where it was made, or what kind of block it is. I feel it's like the Kirkham vs. SAI Cobra. Kirkham is a replica, SAI's Kirkham rebadge is a real Cobra because SAI said it was and they have the right. Whether or not the SAI premium is worth the markup is up to the buyer.
It's kinda like the GMC pickup truck vs the Chevy truck, the GMC cost more than the Chevy, but they were the same truck. I've had several Chevy Blazers('70-'75 models) and one GMC Jimmy('77)(don't tell Turk ), and they were all great trucks(what this has got to do with the price of tea in China, I don't know).

[RACER X #99]

Mike,
Great detailed explaination of the Aluminum Shelby FE. (I always find first hand info more credible)

To me this is the perfect engine for the non original Cobra.

With all the old iron FE's installed in non original Cobras I'll bet that more than one of these aluminum blocks will find themselves installed in an original Cobra . If that hasn't already happened.