Ice Racing in Cobras

[Carroll DeWeese]

I read an article in yesterday's New York Times about racing cars on frozen lakes on the ice. I have seen some past posts about driving Cobras in the snow. Anyone have experience with or knowledge about racing Cobras on ice? They did not say so in the article, but it sounded like Autocross on ice. It was not wheel to wheel.

They made a point that traction is king on the ice and that too much horsepower is a disadvantage. I would think that Cobras -- which are not the best choice for Autocross anyway -- would really fare badly on the ice. Anyone know anything about Cobras on ice?

[Cal Metal]

We race on the ice up here. There are two ways guys do it. You either run a Blizzak type snow tire or you run studded tires.

Which cars do the best? Usually old Mazda 323s with AWD. The type of driving is polar (no pun intended) depending on your choice of tires. The Blizzak crowd performs more of a dance on ice--pumping your brakes for turns, making sure everything is controlled to prevent a spin. Much slower and deft. The slicker the ice (no snow accumulation), the trickier it is.

The studded tire crowd is balls to the wall driving. Driving with studs is like racing on gravel, to some degree. It is really a blast because you really can't spin them out in a FWD car and, if you do, you have a mile on either side of you to complete the spin--no walls, fences, or barricades. Very little risk of injury or hitting something. You throttle steer through every turn.

You can call it an AutoX, but it is really more circular than what you would find in a dry pavement AutoX. The gates are very far apart (the Blizzak crowd would have difficulty with a real short windy course) and you--we don't, anyway-- really use a chicane. The track is 1.5 to 2.0 miles in diameter which is quite a bit longer than a regular AutoX. It is a real blast, but the cars that normally partcipate are not new machines. A Cobra could do this but power would not be an advantage with non studs. One with studded snow tires would be an interesting proposition, though. That might prove to be some real fun.

[Carroll DeWeese]

Thanks for the information. It is much more informative than the New York Times article on the specifics of ice racing. Does anyone actually race a Cobra on ice? Even with studs, I would think that a Cobra would be at a disadvantage.

[Mark IV]

... UPI...

A frozen body was found today after the completion of the "Mille 'de frigid" in Northern Wisconsin. Captain L.T. Smash of the Ocomowoc police dept. was quoted as saying "Only a fool would go out on the ice in an open roadster." The local authorities claim that several people went on the ice at their own accord and proceeded to "race around like it was July or sumpthin' "

Sources say it took the coroner several hours to unwrap the "cold, dead fingers" of the deceased off the rim off a "lovely wood rimmed steering wheel".

Sheriff John Stone says this is another classic case of "too much horsepower" overcoming the better sense of a normally rational human being.

"God intended us to hibernate during the Winter or at least hole up with a lot of food and booze" a man only willing to be identified as " Cal Metal" was quoted as saying.

Rikki Lake, Jerry Springer and Judge Crater are continuing the investigation...

[computerworks]

(...from Cal Metal)

[Carroll DeWeese]

Great picture. Look at the rear wheel spin compared to the front wheel. Look at the width of the back tires. Talk about hydoplaining on ice.

[Excaliber]

Man that looks like fun!!!!!!

Ernie

[Carroll DeWeese]

Excaliber,
Do you ever see ice in Oahu? I guess you hve to hydroplane with plain water on hard surfaces.

[Excaliber]

We have a great dirt track. And theres a big dirt field not far from there. I like to take my boy out there and we just go nuts "drifting" our little "circle track".

Ice? Ha ha, not since I've lived here!

Ernie

[Cal Metal]

I almost bought Mark IV's story hook, line and sinker in the beginning! Then I saw Oconomowoc---which is in the southern part of our fair state. Had you said Hayward, Wisconsin I might have believed the whole story. Good job of writing.

That Echidna pic is of Jerry Hansen driving my car--I was only 12 when it was taken. Little did I know that I would be doing the same thing some forty years later.

[Mark IV]

...you want me to ghost write your life story? Like how you got E.F. Hutton started in the business? And taught Alan Greenspan all he knows about economics? How about how you were the real advisor to Reagan on finance and economics?

Plus I'll throw in your Olympic victories and first overall at LeMans.
Just tell me how heroic you want to be. I can write it.


And then I want to do Turk's life story. That won't require any imagination!

Rick

[Cal Metal]

Carroll:

I read the article. It seems as though these guys are running without studded snow tires. Spins outs are pretty rare with those. These guys were doing a lot of that. Studded snows are hard to find. John Menard of Menard Racing sells them. They run around $150 a piece and only come in 13" & 15" sizes. My Neon ACR takes a 14". I did find some through Vulcan tire. Most states outlaw them; therefore, finding a distributor is a little hard. I searched a long time. You can make your own, too. There is a method that I found on the internet. Not too hard, either. Give it a try.

[Cal Metal]

Try this link Carroll for the do-it-yourself studded snow tires. I think these were for a mountain biking, but you get the drift of how to do it.


How To Make Studded Snow Tires
Sent by Johan H. after the big snowstorm of March 2001:
Some of you asked for these directions. I was e-mailed these a while ago from Jonathan B. and I think he pulled them off the internet someplace. I have added some things that I like best (added duct tape, using rounded pan-head screws) and have had success with. If you need anything else, just let me know.

What You Need

2 Old tires with big Knobs (Something with some knobbies still left on are the best and wider is better than narrow)
1 cordless drill 1 small drill bit 1/16" has worked for me
1 Phillips head screw tip for the drill
1 Box 1/4" Sheet metal screws (size #10 or whatever looks good) ***rounded pan-heads are best***
2 Boxes 1/2" Sheet metal screws (size #10or so) ***rounded pan-heads are best***
1 Tube epoxy
2 old inner tubes with cut off stems, slit open
2 hours to kill
How To Do It
Pick a line of tread to either line of the center for the front tire, and pick the same for the rear in addition to a pair of treads right down the middle.
Use the drill and drill bit to drill from the outside towards the inside of the tire through the knobbies. Do this carefully and make sure you can see all of the holes on the inside of the tire.
Pour out a pool of the epoxy onto a plate and place the Phillips-bit in the drill.
Note: You will be putting the 1/2" screws on the front tire and on the sides of the rear tire. The 1/4" screws will be set down the center of the rear tire.
Dip each screw in the epoxy and screw it into the tire from the inside out (the Head of the screw will be on the inside of the tire).
After each screw is set (making sure that the screw pops up in the center of the knobs you drilled in the beginning, not on the casing), I line the inside of the tire with a layer or two of duct tape as protection against flats.
Cut the valve out of the old tubes (DH tubes work well but are not really necessary) and split them down the middle.
Paint the remaining epoxy onto the inside of the tire where your DH tube/liner will be glued into place. The Easiest way to make sure it sets up right is to use an inflated tube and put it inside of the DH tube, then stuff all of that into the spiked tire.
Let it sit overnight and check it the next day, all of the screws have to be covered on the inside, and the glue must be mostly dry.
Put them on your wheels (BE CAREFUL, they can hurt a lot!), and check your frame and fork for clearance. IF they hit either one, you can use a pair of side-cutters (AKA "dikes") to snip off a little of each screw.
NOW go have fun in the snow and watch out for bare rock (it can be VERY precarious).
These tires are meant for riding on ice or packed snow. They excel on snowmobile trails and in Vietnam where the ice and snow are always tough. These tires are really heavy and you definitely notice the weight, but when the trails are ice covered they can really propel you down the trail and give you good traction on turns. On hard packed snow, they are not as big an advantage, but still help add traction over plain unstudded tires.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


More info Phil K. sent back in the winter of '99:
Here's an excerpt from something I wrote many years ago for Dirt Rag about studding tires. Two additional tips not mentioned below:

Stainless steel screws last longer.
Drink plenty of beer while making the tire so you don't get bored!
SNOW SHOES FOR YOUR BIKE:
Studded tires aren't absolutely necessary for winter trail use, but they add a lot of security, and if you're hoping for some lake riding, they're a must. In the extreme, a big screw impales each knob, adding up to about 250-300 screws per tire (and a whole lot of rolling resistance). For general trail use, you can easily get by with a 100 or so. Select tires with big chunky knobs, and put the screws in from the inside out. IRC studded Blizzards are pretty wimpy, so make your own.

Here are a few "Don'ts"

Don't use a regular screw driver. Beg, borrow or steal one of those rechargeable power drivers. You'll remain considerably saner, and you might actually get to use the tires before spring thaw.
Don't use flathead screws. The driver too easily slips off, and you'll soon find yourself cursing incessantly. Phillips head screws work best.
Don't forget to line your tires with brown Mr. Tuffy's or an old sew-up cut to fit or you'll get about 10 feet on your maiden voyage before flatting.
As to the appropriate size of sheet metal screw: if you want ultra-bite go for 1/2" by 6, while 3/8" by 6 does fine for general use. Hey SRP, Is there a market for titanium sheet metal screws?
Most important: use your head, ride with buddies, fill bottles with hot water, and keep PowerBars warm to prevent tooth breakage!




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[Fred Douglass]

This puts my little foray ice-sailing on the Bay in perspective eh? I ain't the only nut loose behind the steering wheel! Mark IV, thank Gawd, you've arrived. I think you and I should consider collaborating (maybe with Hal...but he's got a reputation to protect ) on a book or two. You have TALENT young man! Like tghe Orson Welles angle! Keep up the good work!

[Wayne Maybury]

Serious ice racers spend a fortune on the studs. I had a friend that used to race a Mini years ago and he used to buy special studs that were made of tungston or carbide. Really hard stuff. Screws, bolts, etc don't last. Front wheel drive or better still all wheel drive are the only ways to go. A Cobra wouldn't have a chance, too much power, poor traction, and rear wheel drive to boot.

Wayne

[flipper35]

On our motorcycles, we just ran hex head sheet metal screws into the knobby while the tires were mounted on the bike still. Just make sure they don't go through the knob and tire into the tube. They would throw one or two out now and then though.

That's of course when I lived in Wisconsin, not here in the desert.

[Carroll DeWeese]

I have put studs in my running shoes to handle ice on my outdoor runs. I will run on ice but I do not plan run my Cobra on ice, But I am curious if anyone has done so an what was their experience. On a dry surface few cars can compete, but on ice I expect a Cobra probably be near to last.

Of course, this whole discussion is due to Northern Winters. Just yesterday we had 8 to 10 inches of snow overnight. Guess what I spent the morning doing.

I know some people race on dirt. Does anyone race on snow? I was thinking that it might be easier to have a track available than to have to clear the snow off the ice. A Cobra might get enough traction to at least come in the middle of the pack on snow.

[Mark IV]

Notice that the car in the photo Cal posted is running WHITEWALLS on the rear. I understand this was somewhat common in the 50's. The Max B. "Ol' Yeller" ran on Allstate whitewalls because they were the softest compound tire they could find and gave better grip than some of the then current racin' tars.

Mighty stylish to boot!

Rick