Anti-Carroll Shelby???

Russ Dickey · #1 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 12:59 PM

These forums has been exceptionally helpful to me in my search for the "perfect replica". I have met so many nice and knowledgeable people in just the mere few weeks that I have been posting.

I am curious about one sentiment that I have seen reflected in more than just a few threads, and that is the "Anti-Carroll Shelby" comments that I have seen posted here. I must say that I find this very surprising to say the least, especially on a Cobra website.

I am sure that these sentiments are probably a tiny minority, but I feel like I need to share my thoughts anyway. If it wasn't for Shelby, none of us would have these fantastic cars to enjoy. He is truly the creator of the Cobra, but some people seem to downplay that because of the fact that he took two existing products, the AC Ace and the Ford smallblock, and put them together. But ask anybody in the manufacturing world, and they'll tell you that consitutes an all-new product, which is just what he created: an all-new car the likes of which the world had never seen before. And he made it an American World Champion, also something that had never been done before..or since for that matter.

I brought up the old licensing issue to a couple of replica owners, and they said "Shelby is just a greedy old man..he's just about the money." Hmmm...I don't think FFR, SPF, ERA and all the others are building these cars for charity. Can you blame Shelby for wanting royalties or licensing fees? Other people are making money by producing an exact copy of a car he created. If that was me, I'd want some compensation, too. I work in the NASCAR industry, so I know all about royalties an licensing issues, and I can tell you that the drivers and teams get paid for anything and everything that has the slightest likiness of them or their car, or even their car number for God's sake! Overkill maybe, but nonetheless, if it was one of us, we'd want our share too.

Then I heard "But he wants royalties on a 35-year old car!". So what? The Beatles and Elvis (estate) and every other recording artist still gets royalties on their songs, and they're just as old. I've heard different stories on what Shelby was wanting for a licensing fee. I've heard everything from wanting $5000 per replica to wanting a one-time donation of $5000 to his Children's Fund. I know that the lawsuit was settled, and I heard nobody had to pay Shelby anything, and that just doesn't seem right. And I realize that he doesn't need the money, but that's not the point. Maybe some of these replica companies have donated something to his Children's Fund. I think that's the least they could do.

I guess I'm just struggling to figure out why some of the folks on this website loathe the guy so much. He's just a tough old Texan who's trying to protect what's his. Some people are upset because he has, on occassion, wanted a donation before he'll autograph something. From my dealings with various race car driver's and other athletes, that is a common practice. And who can fault him for that? His foundation has done some great things for young transplant patients.

This is all just my humble opinion. Maybe you guys (and gals) can shed some light on why Ol' Shel doesn't always get the kind of respect he deserves.

Russ

HIQ · #2 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 01:14 PM

The MAJORITY of folks here respect the life and accomplishments of Mr Shelby. That said, I think many of us question some of the comments and actions he has taken in recent years against the replica industry.

This tread will bring out the haters so get ready for the fireworks.

agro1 · #3 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ Dickey

I am curious about one sentiment that I have seen reflected in more than just a few threads, and that is the "Anti-Carroll Shelby" comments that I have seen posted here. I must say that I find this very surprising to say the least, especially on a Cobra website.

Russ - If you have seen the existing threads on this topic, then you would have also read the subsequent discussions and explanations of the different members and their views - This topic has been beaten to death already and your attempt to flame it up again is a waste of time.

KobraKarl · #4 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 01:27 PM

I agree Russ, and I think a lot of the CS bashing comes from a "vocal minority" who resent shelby's displeasure at losing $ and control over his "baby".
Having said that...... I might not have my car if CS had his way ,and in a way I am "ripping him off" ,but I dont think I should resent him for not liking it!!

Too bad some kind of licensing agreement couldnt get worked out.

Maybe Chevrolet would like to build some mustangs.....Im sure Ford wont mind.... its a 39 year old desighn!

Russ Dickey · #5 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 01:29 PM

That's cool. If you feel the same as Argo1, then don't respond. I'm a new guy around here, and by no means want to start any ill-will with members who have had a gentlemanly discussion about this topic before.

However, if you've never shared your thoughts, such as I haven't, then feel free to express your opinions.

Roscoe · #6 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 01:32 PM

Russ,

Ok...come clean...you're his nephew..right?

Welcome to CC,
Roscoe

CobraEd · #7 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 01:33 PM

Everythjing I have ever seen of Carol Shelby has always been as a good guy. He seems like a regular car guy who you would like to sit down and have a beer with.

bwana50 · #8 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 01:46 PM

My opinion: I respect CS for what he did (both behind the wheel and in creating the Cobra), but he seems to have gotten greedy lately. I think it's telling that he didn't start suing until lately - well after the first replicas appeared on the scene. In his shoes, if I really wanted to protect my product, I would have gone after the replicas makers as soon as I got wind of what they were up to. Otherwise, it appears you didn't care until there was real money involved. Also the fact that, initially, the replicas were not "taking" money from him - he'd already sold all his Cobras. Now that he's selling Cobras again and the replicas are competing for business, he wants to sue 'em.

I don't know what the legal aspect is on car design. Music and printed works are obviously protected by copyright; is a car's shape similarly protected? I believe that was the crux of the most recent suits, and apparently the answer was "no".

Russ Dickey · #9 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 01:48 PM

Roscoe:
LOL! Yes, I am his nephew, and I am in for 35% of his eventual estate...so I want my licensing fees damnit! Then I can go buy my SPF. Just kidding.

Russ

REAL 1 · #10 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 01:50 PM

Russ: This subject has indeed been beaten to death.

CS is not perfect. But he's not as bad as many here would paint him.

The Cobra industry has made millions off his car. They couldn't see eye to eye on various issues and CS belatedly filed a suit. Bad feelings erupted from those having some misplaced allegence to a multi million dollar industry that made tremendous profits from his idea. They called CS every name in the book and maligned/put down his products including the new Cobras and owners as a way of getting even or making themselves feel better.

The suit has been resolved (part of it anyway) and many have kissed and made up.

Yeah. Isn't it ironic that a site dedicated to the Shelby Cobra can be so full of vitriol for its creator. Go figure.

KobraKarl · #11 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 01:54 PM

Bwana,

I own a couple of bussiness's and protecting designs and intelectual property is not "greed"

how bout a new ford Corvette !

bwana50 · #12 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 01:58 PM

double posted

computerworks · #13 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 02:02 PM

Short version:

I think a lot of the anti-CS sentiment that you read here is the result of some folks not being able to separate the man from the various companies and business operations, as well as the legal/licensing entities that use his name.

RallySnake · #14 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 02:06 PM

Russ,

Very well stated letter. I have felt the same way, at times.

I am proud that I was able to meet and talk with Mr. Shelby at a vintage race a few years back. I was not looking for an autograph or anything else, just happy to meet a fellow Texan and shake his hand.

I was impressed, he was open and friendly and very sharp. Considering his age and health problems, he is amazingly active. About a year ago, a good friend of mine was driving to the office in his Corvette, down the 405 Freeway. Carroll pulled up next to him in a Series I car, waved, then took off, leaving him in the dust. Man, I hope I can drive like that when I'm 79, with or without a new heart!

As to all the lawsuit stuff, business is business.

Paul

flatliner · #15 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 02:15 PM

The shape of the cobra is not a shelby design. He has no right to it. AC motorcars designed the shape. So, lets say someone has a cobra kit with a chevy motor....is shelby due $ ?? ,not in this lifetime!! As far as i'm concerned when shelby sued the kit car companies, he sued all who own kit cars, because we are the ones who will pay. I for one lost all respect for this individual when he started this frivolous quest to undermine the kit car industry. Sure pro athletes make big $ endorsing products, but the product companies get something back...exposure, advertising, ect. There is only one motive for shelby..$$$$$.

Russ Dickey · #16 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 02:19 PM

On somewhat of a related subject, the diecast companies all have to pay the car manufacturers royalties when producing a die-cast replica of their cars, and that's for a 1/18th scale (or other) collectible car that doesn't even run. These rules apply to all makes and model years of cars.

The only time (in my industry) that I have not seen this rule apply is with artwork. If someone draws or paints a picture of a car, or even a driver, then the law provides for the "artist's conception", and they are not liable for royalties. However, if it's a photograph of the real car or driver that you're peddling, you have to buck up for the licensing fees, or fear the wrath of the lawyers.

rdorman · #17 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 02:27 PM

You mean we [i]have had a "gentlemanly discussion" discussion around here!!!!!!!

REAL 1 · #18 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 02:36 PM

The only motive for any replica company - $$$$$. Why is CS different?

He felt he had the right to trade dress. Right or wrong. He lost. Thats it. He did have the right to the name/logo and mark. He was right to move to protect those.

The replica companies aren't in the business because they like us. They are in the business for $$$$. If the market dried up they would go on to other products.

Russ Dickey · #19 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 02:41 PM

Flatliner:
A couple of points I would make. First, by slightly modifying the original AC body with wider fenders, hoodscoops, etc., Shelby did in fact create a new product. Pete Brock and Ken Miles helped Shelby do the original redesign of the AC, not the gents in England. I liken this to the same way that Saleen creates a Saleen Mustang. If you go out and identically reproduce all the Saleen ground effects, wheels, seats, etc. (even without his logos), and bolt them on a Mustang and start selling it as a Flatliner Mustang, you better believe that Steve Saleen and his attorneys will be paying you a visit.

Second, I wasn't talking about the pro athletes who do endorsements, I'm talking about the way that they get paid anytime a product is created using their likeness or their number. Dale Earnhardt Jr. may not endorse Winner's Circle diecast cars, but because Winner's Circe makes money off of selling a #8 Monte Carlo, Jr. gets a gigantic royalty check each quarter, and he doesn't have to lift a finger or do a single commercial. Who else gets a royalty from that toy car? Dale Earnhardt, Inc., Chevrolet and Budweiser (now you guys know why your NASCAR toys cost so damn much).

I also see where if Shelby would have had his way, it's possible that many of us, including myself, would never have been able to afford a replica. I guess it's just the fact that folks rip on Shelby for doing exactly the same thing we would all do in his position.

Great Asp · #20 (**permalink**) 03-21-2003, 03:03 PM

There is still time to stop this thread!

Don't post on it! No more fanning the flames!

We ONLY have 3 months till the Fling. We were getting along so well..............sigh

Great Asp