Shelby buys CAV GT40 for 80th Birthday !!

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Evan;

The facts are the facts. You have said in many post's that you prefer to deal "in facts only". O-K, I agree with you on that 100%. Fact is, I have heard and seen CS on the t-v
during an interview saying "He personally went to the kit makers and asked for the $1,000.00 donation per kit sold to go to his heart fund". Shelby Licensing Inc. may have carried the banner for this,but I-me- have personally heard and seen CS on t-v say he asked for the donation himself....Now I'm dealing in facts and have the right to flame him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am entitled to my opinion just like everyone else, and my opinion is that the way it was stated to the kit makers constitutes EXTORTION,your a lawyer,would you like to argue for or against that in court????

BTW; I agree with you 100% on the fact that you have a real Shelby Cobra. Fact is it has a CSX # and is therefore a real Shelby Cobra,not an old one but a new one...No one else can say they have a real Cobra unless it has a CSX #,that I agree to....I think most people here other than a small handful will agree to that and give the credit to CSX owners... Most people have a beef with SAI or CS,not the car or the fact that you have a CSX car and others have kit cars or replicas that resemble the Cobra... You have tried to bridge the gap from the CSX owners to all others and have made some very good progress,but lately it seems others from SAI have just about undone all the good you did....

Evan, I have no problem or beef with CSX owners or their cars,just that I do like the way SAI/CS have conducted business and done things thru the years..... You said in an earlier post something to the effect that if you and Turk could run SAI,you put the other guys out of business.... I agree 100% again with that,using CS's name and legend and letting others who have a businees head,they could easily make a car to compete with the upper end replicas out there and put most of them under in short order.... I do think that the majority of folks would buy a CSX car over brand x if it was cometitively priced and marketed the right way..

Respectfully;

David

[REAL 1]

David: Thanks for your honesty in the acknowledgment of certain facts. Its a breath its a breath of fresh air around here.

As to the "donation thing". It appears that you know more than I do. I only know what I've been told by various people and what I read here which means I have a clear handle on this issue.

What interesting is that it seems from your stated facts that CS actions and statements were inconsistent with Shelby Licensing Inc's behavior. Some here said they believed that CS may not have been aware of what Shelby Licensing Inc. was doing.

Do I have this right?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[pderouss]

Assuming that I can manage the technology here is a photo of the original "Shelby AC Cobra" badge.

[Excaliber]

Who was it that quoted Shelby, ",,,,,a little bit of Texas, a little bit of snake oil and things better left unmetioned....." or words to that affect.

Classic salesman kinda thing, and they don't get much better than he is at it. As far as "marketing" goes, thats pretty much standard operating procedure for race car owners, salesman and a host of others, isn't?

Or as Bush might say: "Plausible deniabilty". The motor is assolutley to "specs" (at least, to my specs,,,,,,,,), lol.

Ernie

[REAL 1]

David: Yes. That is a very, very early Shelby AC badge for the first run of 289's. Shelby quickly ditched the "AC" in the logo and went with the early Cobra logo. All CSX 427's had the Cobra logo.

Stan: Yeah. Your right I can't tell the difference between that COB and my car or any CSX. New or old. They all are identical!

No, a CSX built between 1962-1968 minus the "CSX" (assuming you are grinding it off) leaves you with a Shelby Cobra with the "CSX" vin # ground off. This car was primarily fabricated by AC.

A CSX built between1997 to present minus the "CSX" (assuming you are grinding it off) leaves you with a Shelby Cobra with the "CSX" vin # ground off. This car was primarily fabricated by Kirkham.

Further, might I add that CSX, COB and COX were all specific and separately used prefixes. A CSX car did not also have a COB prefix. So grinding off a "CSX" (signifying a car built for Shelby) prefix would not leave you with a COB (signifying a car built for Britain). Stan. You know better. Sheesh!

You make this too easy.

[CSX 4027]

Stan,
I always have plenty of Vintage Watches.

"If you wanna have a good time..
....you gotta have a good watch!!

As for the rest of the Shelby bashers
Extortion? In my opinion, I don't see it that way.

This club wouldn't be around and we would all probably be out driving Studebakers if it wasn't for Carroll Shelby. Lets face it, he made the car famous period. AC would have just continued to make underpowered roadsters and eventually go out of business (which they have seemed to do a number of times since the "Original Cobra Days") if the Shel man didn't come along.
Yes, Carroll went a differernt direction after the emmissions days and had little to do with the Cobra stuff but, lets face it, Cheverolet has not made 1963 Corvettes since 1963 right? Go try and make a copy and call it a 1963 Chevrolet Corvette without paying Chevrolet. Would we say it is OK for them and not Shelby to have a claim to some form of royalties because they are GM?
Not one of the Kit car manufacturers would have made a copy of a Cobra if it wasn't for Carroll Shelby. How come no-one makes a copy of the AC Greyhound or 4 cylinder Aceca? I think we all know the answer.

Whenever CS came out of his Shell (no pun intended) and asked for a little recognition money whether it was personally or through his charity, what would be the big deal in the scheme of things?

I believe in the live and let live thing. A little more, a little less
What's the difference??

-Just my 2.5 cents

[CSX 4027]

This is a quote from John Ruskin around the turn of the 20th century I thought you all might enjoy or possibly relate to.

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little.

When you pay too much, you lose a little money, that's all.

When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done.

If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk that you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better,"

PS- He was British....

[captain]

Steve,
There are reasons the law is written as it is. If CS had rights, he lost them. If he lies sometimes, the courts usually rule his word cannot be trusted. If he only wanted a charitable gift, he probably would have gotten it. Bottom line, he should let it go.

[REAL 1]

Steve: I agree for the most part.

CS probably did wait too long to ascert his rights and sat on his hands when he should have been doing something.

The replica industry, however, clearly pirated his car and made millions on imitating it. They knew he had rights in the car.

While CS maybe acted too late and maybe out of an effort to capitalize on the re-newed interest in the Cobra I don't see the replica industry as lilly white either.

[Excaliber]

What was that story about the guy who invented the "paper clip" and sold the patent for a few bucks when he was "down and out"?

The guy that bought it went on to make millions. Sometimes, business sucks, and moral issues take a back seat. At Georgetown U. (I used to "hang out" there) they taught the law is not about "truth and justice" but more akin to the "rules of play". Not sure I like that, but it is "real".

Ernie

[CSX 4027]

I guess Shelby realized that possibly from a legal standpoint he had to let go so, the 4000 series appeared to be his way of getting his payback. He certainly added confusion to the high end kit car business. Hell, I was going to buy a High Tech or possibly an ERA before the 4000 series came to be. The bottom line is that if I put the amount of time money and effort into one of those other cars in order to make it look authentic, I would have never seen my money back or as in my case, a profit. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken soup. They are both good and either one could certainly be considered a healthy meal but, they will never be the same.
The Shel man has succeeded in taking away the high end market, creating a new market that has a register in the light of his original cars.
I remember when Shelby used to go around signing all other makes of Cobra's and taking photo's with their cars. I guess if the manufacturers had got together when he asked for compensation in order to structure a deal that all could have lived with, the whole Cobra Club would be somewhat more harmonious that it is now.
In my opinion, the CAV thing is just another move on the chess board in order to get more of the marketplace and potentially take sales away for the builders that are within a financial stones throw of a Shelby.
****Remember, before you post a reply
This is only my opinion. I didn't post this for a war. We have enough wars on the plate and I don't even own a Cobra at this point and have no financial relationship with SAI.

[computerworks]

...and, The Metaphor of the Month Award goes to....
...envelope, please...(*shuffle, shuffle*)...

STEVE SUNSHINE!.....{wild applause....}




.......chicken soup??????????????

[Super-Snake]

Steve, you have to admit the guy who bought your car would qualify as a pigeon! It was a great car but if he tried to sell it tomorrow he would be lucky to get $75k.

Excalibur, I love your optimistic view of corporate manufacturing practices. In an ideal world you would be 100% correct. However I hate to rain on your parade.

On a daily basis I see all sorts of companies from the smallest to the largest global conglomerates cheapening their product lines with the cheapest components they can buy. They put them in the same packaging with the same descriptions and dont say a word about the change. And guess what? The prices dont change one penny. In fact in many cases the prices increase and continue to increase every year.

As far as Evans comments.. I have never seen another individual on club cobra write as frequent uninformed and in many cases elementary comments on this website. If you are not knowledgeable on a subject, dont have the experience, or just flat out dont know the answer why do you have to hypothesize or make assumptions? You are an attorney so it would be fair to expect you to know better.

And what exactly did the replica industry do that makes them not lilly white? None of us know the exact history of the heart fund donation scandle. Are we to assume that all of the replica companies were wrong? That each replica company responded in the same exact fashion? That not one single replica company was proactive?

How can we expect that either side was rational in their private discussions about this subject? Are any of us qualified to say what would be fair and equitable to both parties? Were any of us actually privy to the conversations?

Was Richard Hudgins? From all of the posts it appears that he was privy to some of the discussions. And from past actions by many parties I am more swayed by Richards comments than anyone elses.

And how many years has Brent Fenimnore been an employee of SAI? Five years, Ten years, Fifteen years? Its amazing how much history can 'change' or memories become clouded/altered in that amount of time.

my .02

let the flames begin.

[STG]

Evan,

Here's a hypothetical for you. If you were representing ( insert name of non-lily-white cobra counterfeiter here) and CS came along and demanded as fee for every car you built, what would you advise your client to do?

1. Pay the amount requested by CS because it is the morally correct thing to do.

2. Pay the amount requested by CS because you'll make friends with SAAC.

3. Pay the amount requested by CS because you won't have to go to confession anymore.

4. Nothing. I'm an attorney and I don't represent criminals, real estate brokers, shady kit car maufacturers or other attorneys!

5. Do not pay CS anything because he has given up any rights he may have had by sitting on his hands too long. Further, if you did pay him and later stop, maybe CS would have a valid claim against you.

Please tell me you would advise your client that options one through four are the only valid, viable and legally correct ones.

[STG]

Ron,

I'll take a side of chili with my chicken soup, please.

[CSX 4027]

Let's see now.....

How about;
Buy a Cobra, get free chicken soup & sandwich

Shelby was a chicken farmer wasn't he?

Evan,
I think I once dated Lilly White only I don't think she remained that way for long

Dan,
It might not have been as much as I got, but for sure it would have been more than $75K.
Most have already spent that on hair replacement to try and find the parts and detail that was on that car. Cobra Restorers and Motorsport Int'l still get photo's of the car from customers trying to duplicate some of the detail.
I will always be the proud father of 4027 eventhough my son went through some changes. Ah, kids these days!!!! .

[Super-Snake]

Steve,

I will agree $75 is a bottom number. Your time, skill, and personal touch is priceless. However, if you break down the car and the current state of the economy the price would not be considerably higher.

You had a one of a kind replica of a truly historic racecar. However, your racecar (i know you drove it on the street for quick 300 mph blasts on route 80) honestly should never have been driven on the street. Your engine builder probably would have kicked your butt if he knew you drove it anywhere but the track.

Regardless, that racecar would not be eligible for any sanctioning body other than SCCA/EMRA/NASA/etc. and no one in their right mind would race that car in any of those crash-derbys. As a result the only real customer for that car would be either a serious collector, a gambling investor, an overseas buyer, or that one in a million enthusiast like yourself that I have yet to meet.

Now get that damn Cup car so we can have some real fun.

-dan

but we would all agree on one thing...

if you got ol' CS to auction that car off at Barrett Jackson you would have enough money to buy that cup car, an 18wheeler to transport it, and enough Ray Bestos girls to crew for a Winston Cup Race!

[CSX 4027]

Dan,
Those southern boys promised me fast but,
......there given it to me slow.

I remember my highschool sweetheart.
I promised to give it to her slow but,
......ended up giving it to her fast... oops

It should be in a few weeks but, I have been hearing every week for months.

[captain]

Dan,
Very well said. Do you have a law degree?
Steve, Where can I get the chicken soup?

[REAL 1]

I don't have to be that informed to know that the replica companies didn't invent the Cobra. I don't have to be that informed to know that they never asked CS's permission to copy his car. I don't have to be that informed to know that if CS had acted earlier there might not be a SPF or any other replica company.

Further, from what I understand very few of the replica companies, knowing they were pirating someone else's car and imitating made any attempt to approach CS in the beginning and say, "Mr. Shelby, we would like to copy and replicate your car, can we work out a licensing deal."? Most jumped into the industry at varous times and to my knowledge, not that I claim to be "well informed" on this subject and again as far as I know very few ever sought to intiate a deal with CS. Most just openned shop and began poping out imitations.

Maybe that led to CS's bitterness later on. Neither side is 100% right as I see it. And as you admit you weren't privy to any of the private conversations or negotiations, accept beyond what RH posted as to what was proposed to him, I doubt you are any more informed than me. If you are please do tell us the details of all the negotiations with all companies. Maybe you as a SPF dealer have the inside scoop on this issue. Did SPF ever approach CS? Did CS ever approach SPF regarding licensing. What was the deal??? What did SPF say beyond f' off.

As to SPF, I have copies of their ads where they advertised they professed to making "Cobras". Excuse me? SPF makes what? No. I don't think so. I would guess that if CS didn't sue SPF SPF would have gladly stopped. Yeah right ! These ads stopped probably as a result of the litigation.

Yeah. SPF is'nt lilly white. Why would they claim they made a Cobra when they don't. Not even close. Any way its better right??? Yeah. Ok I'll buy that one too.

You haven't impressed me with you knowledge or information either. So I guess that makes us even.

As to making elemental comments frequently. Yeah. I do. The reason? Because the issues and facts are that simple, clear and elementary which makes it even more astouding as to why they can't be grasped or acknowledged by many anti-CSX people here.

You then characterize the buyers of Steve's car as a "pigeon." I'm sure this demeaning characterazation has nothing to do with the fact that a CSX was involved and we operate a SPF dealer. Yeah.

First you say Steve would be lucky to get $75K. Then you agree thats the bottom end? Which is it. Top or bottom? Based on the detail of Steve's car, its condition,its quality and its notoriety it is IMHO clearly worth in the $100K to $110K range. Maybe the buyer did over pay some but apparently it was worth it to him. I'd rather over pay on a CSX (especially that one) than a SPF any day. Maybe it was worth more in light of recent CSX's selling for $160K at Barrett Jackson. Never saw a SPF sell for more used than new. Has that happened?

Oh. BTW, how much does a full boat SPF with a BB 460 go for these days or a "trick" 396 stroker with all the bells and whistles? Push'n $60 to $65K? Some might think those buyers were pigeons especially with a finished ERA in that range or a Kirkham or SAI roller.

Stan: I'd need to know first of all at what point in time was the demand made. Late 90's? Early 80's? I'd need more information as to whether he still had standing to protect the trade dress rights at that specific time.