Lets see Aluminum 4000 Values?

[REAL 1]

JWheaton: Ok. I agree that there is an illusion created as to the car being a vintage car. As to the Shelby, however, that is not what I am/was trying to do, ie..create an illusion of it being a vintage car. I was merely intending to have the new Cobra built to exact '65 specs. I wanted the car to be "as it was" for me. Its what I wanted for myself. I wanted to own a Cobra exactly as they were, sounded, performed, felt, looked, handled etc.. The "illusion" of it appearing as an actual '65 car to others is merely an unavoidable bi-product for me that is not intended. I'm not trying to fool anyone that it is a vintage Cobra. Don't need to or want to. Hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Its a subtle difference I guess that may not be too clear.

As to the "secondary buyer" I understand what you are saying. However, the premium that cars like mine or Steves might bring because of their painstaking details are usually paid by nuts like the nut that created the car. Such secondary buyers pay the premium because they know what the details are and its what they are seeking. I guess their "heart" is measured by the willingness to pay the premium for such cars.

My one objection is your including Turk's car with the likes of Steves and mine. Hell, his Cobra doesn't even have paint!

Bill: Thanks for the info. Wow! I didn't know the "R" went for that much. Thats alot of scratch.

[Cobrabill]

There is a Shelby 4000 series for sale in Tempe at a dealer.Price is $195,000.

Oil puke tank hooked up wrong.
Blue Permatex visible under Valve cover badges.
Cheesy looking vinyl bag covering battery behind the seat.

An impression was not made.

[JWheaton]

Evan,

Glad you understand that I have no problem with the painstaking detail that you and others have taken to build their cars. Computerworks is going an extra 100 miles to give his car the look that he is seeking. He took apart a perfectly good Kirkham. God bless him for his enthusiasm to craft the car he wants.

I beleive that the secondary buyer is far more nuts than the orginators of the car. Why would they spend so much money on factors that have no intrinsic value. This is a rhetorical question so no need to answer. Should I ever become wealthy enough to answer I think I know why.

[Excaliber]

I think it's important that some folks go the extra mile and get the car accurate right down to the last rivet. For me, that is the "standard" to look up to. From their I will compromise due to expense. time or whatever. But I want to KNOW where those compromises are. All of us have a different place to "draw the line".

If I was going to buy a CSX4000 series car I can easily understand why someone would pay more for an incredibly accurate car. And at that price level, I WOULD be counting rivets and looking closely at the seat track, the wiring harness and all kinds of "little things".

If fact, maybe I want the rivets behind the seats to stick out and wrinkle the covering. Maybe I don't want them ground off smooth and the leather all "perfect".

The point is: Thats one of many places I would be looking and thinking about it what it all means. I understand the "logic" of a CSX2000 series car having an "alternator" instead of a "generator",,,,,,,but an alternator would not be "accuarate" in every detail. I bet the CSX7000 series cars have an "alternator". Man, where would you draw the line?????

Ernie

[CSX 4039]

Originally posted by JWheaton




Should I ever become wealthy enough to answer I think I know why.

Hopefully you will! *knowing grin*


I did not assemble my sister car to Shelby's CSX 3056, but I am VERY grateful to the original owner for going through the efforts, time and expense to do so. I could never have spent that much time, but I appreciate the car probably just as much, in fact maybe even more, because for me, it was a real financial stretch at the time to get it. It's the kind of "feeling good about what you did" you feel when you bend over to pick up the trash you threw at the trash can (and missed), even when you know that nobody is looking. It just feels right. Not smug, as some would conclude, just comfortable and contented. As I've said, nobody where I work even knows I own the car, much less ever seen it. It's not so I can show off, it's just for me. My friend told me once when she bought me a silk Marshall Field's neck tie in 1976, when all my other ties were polyester from Marshall's or T.J. Maxx, "When you buy quality, you only cry once". I still wear that Field's tie to this day.

[Turk]

Yeah,
Please do not include MY car with the generic 4000s out there. This one is very different than the run of the mill CSX 4000.

Evan, thanks for pointing out that we don't belong in the same category!

TURK

[REAL 1]

Turk: I didn't include your car with the generic 4000's. I'm not sure what category to include it in. I just didn't include it with the special ones like mine!

Will your Cobra be at the fling. Will it have paint?

[Bill Kesner]

Ernie.......

I have to disagree with you on the accuracy issue. There was no standard! Not all Cobra's built look alike! Every Cobra built did not have rivets on the hood! Every customer in the 60's could special order their Cobra to the way they wanted it built(engine, add-ons,etc.). Back in the days, Shelby did whatever they could to please the customer in selling these cars. There are many other examples. The main issue will always be whether it has ties to Shelby American as a Manufacturer. Certain cosmetic vintage add-ons are truly a plus. But counting rivets, looking at seat tracks, & wiring harnesses? I would rather look for the obvious things such as original halibrands, certain original engine pieces, original steering wheel, pedals, etc. Now those will certainly add value to the car! Wish I had some of these pieces. I envy the ones that do. - Bill -

[REAL 1]

Bill: Just a note. There were many details or standard pieces that did appear on all 427's. Seat tracks, Leveroll knobs, windshield tags, brass tag on the radiator from the original manufactuer, autolite regulator, fuel pumps etc...

Their were also some pieces that were specific for the model. All S/C's and Comp cars did have rivets in the hood. The number of rivets may vary but there are only a few accepted/recognized original patterns. Trust me on that! They had fuel filters next to the over flow for the radiator. Remote oiler cooler. S/C's had iron heads. Comp cars had aluminum heads. S/C's did not have a passenger air flow vent lever. Just driver side. They also had a manual toggle switch over ride for the twin pusher fans located to the left of the steering wheel. S/C's and comp had fuel pressure gauges not fuel level gauges. Comp had hi rise manifold. S/C medium rise. S/C single or dual quads. Comp was single with turkey pan. Puke tank for S/C's and Comp cars. Exposed aluminum in the trunk. All were powered by the 427SO.

Street cars had the air vent knob on both driver and passenger, difference dash layout with glove box with straps attached to the door knobs. Street cars had no rivets in the hood, no scoop, full carpeting in the trunk, no roll bar, narrower sun burst wheels.

In short there are "correct" details for each model.

[computerworks]

(...427 street cars apparently had no carpet in the trunk... 'glas well for spare and 'glas access covers over UCA... the rest was alum panels. ...maybe carpet panel under the spare)

[ToyCollector]

Turk's guess on the final bid may be right on. Look's like active bargain hunters only are bidding.

[Allan A]

Once again the 4000 series guys who are trying to make their cars look like the 3000 series are going to have big troubles in 20 years (lower values). They will be bastard cars since they will not be original to the 60's or recent years. An original 4000 will be as shipped from the factory with the added CSX Alum motor.

Allan (this will be good)

[CSX 4039]

Originally posted by Allan A


Once again the 4000 series guys who are trying to make their cars look like the 3000 series are going to have big troubles in 20 years (lower values). Allan (this will be good)

Lower than what??

Lower than 3000 series cars? No kidding, really???

They cost less to begin with.

Lower than other 4000 series cars? I don't think so.

[CSX 4027]

The 4000 series cars will always have value less than 3000 cars.
The buyers now and in the future will always look for a duplicate of the 3000 series. The value will always be less than 3000 series but in 20 years, I would find it hard to believe that anyone will have lost any money as an original 4000 owner. The parts get rarer and more expensive. Both Kirkham and Shelby already have an up charge for original brake and rear end set-up. There is obviously a reason why. It costs more. That's not going to change in 20 years especially if there is a SAI to continue building cars.
But, If you really want to have more of an investment then, High buck 4000 owners should try and sell now and ad a few bucks for a 2000 series car. It will surely appreciate more than a 4000.
But, But for the same money you could but a fine painting or real estate. It all depends what you want.

[Allan A]

The comparison is not between 3000 and 4000, but is a comparison between a 4000 that has been converted to look like a 3000. Thereby modifying it from the way it shipped from the factory today. They will not be “original” 4000 series cars since adding an old side oilier block etc. has modified them. A true 4000 will be as shipped with a CSX aluminum block. I have to agree about the differences in cars, we are comparing two 4000 cars side by side and have noted over a handful of major cosmetic differences. They are hand built cars no two are the same.
I am just trying to get you guys all fired up, I really don’t think it matters. However, I do not agree with Steve and the 2000 series, it depends on a number of factors (the life of SAI in particular) but it may be possible that the 4000 cars surpass the value of a 2000 series car.

Allan

[CSX 4027]

You say New Aluminum Block delivered in a New Aluminum Car as an original 4000. First, that can't come like that from Shelby because they only sell rollers. Now you are talking about getting it from an independant Shelby dealer whose list grows and shrinks all the time and some of the irregularities cannot be blamed on Shelby American.

Pssst. What about the first group of 4000 cars that were finished;
1-in fiberglass because aluminum wasn't available yet
2-no aluminum block was available either.

Did you forget the mule car CSX 4000 was fiberglass with an iron original 427? Isn't that an original 4000 car?

When I built 4027, I turned away a good 289 at $95,000
That same car is over $175,000 today. I don't think it is going down from here. They can't make any more of them. The 4000's they can make until they get to 6999. Thats a lot of cars to appreciate.

[computerworks]

Shelby stopped making Cobra cars in 1967.

Today, they make unpowered kits, at various levels of completion, that are finished by hobbyists and independent dealers.... and very nice ones, at that.

There is no apt comparison to prior production automobiles.

[sshurts]

As a slight variant of Steve's question what do people think the valuation difference between a glass CSX and an Aluminum Kirkham?

[Bill Kesner]

Allan,

I have to agree with Steve. To say a true original 4000 series car is an aluminum body with a shelby aluminum motor is far from being accurate. Carroll's intention was to reproduce his car to compete against the Kit Car market, and to make his car an accurate reproduction for the buyer to enjoy it as it was back in the sixties. You'll find that many 4000 owners opted for the original 427 S.O., as well as the 428. These would be far more accurate of a reproduction, than any other engine. A few new owners have opted for the new aluminum motors, and that is now an option several years later. Don't forget that the CSX4000 series launched back in 1997, after the completion cars. As for the future, the 4000 series cars will continue to come with whatever options the buyer chooses. - Bill -

[CSX 4027]

Good question but hard to answer.
Obviously the perceived value is in aluminum. The price to get aluminum has not only come down since the inception of Kirkham but, became more readily available. To get the likes of McClusky or the other big 3 US based aluminum guys to do a car by hand definitely took some time..
It's sometimes odd to me when such odd things sell and some not so odd things don't sell.
One of the 1st glass cars sold at barrett jackson at $115,000 a few years ago then a friend of mine sold his glass car for $112,500. I thought those numbers were the world then I sold mine for $125,000. Go figure. Mine was the only one set up like a comp car and was truely a track car, The guy that bought it made it a really nice street car and thoroughly de-comped it. He thought he would like it that way but, that is not for everybody but it brought the excitement to the sale.
Then we have the Shelby Supercharged cas that looks likea modernized comp car but sounded like a grocery getter. That webt for $200,000 in glass.,
Getting back to the issue, In Shelby Only, I see a 15-20k spread. The kirkhams are going for less,
People want,,,,,
1 - SHELBY
2 - ALUMINUM
3 - Detail & Correctness
4 - as per 3000
Anything else better be cheaper, I think glass will fade out unless it is greatly reduced in price