Is this legal ?

[Zig]

Hello there,

Often when I see a Cobra forsale, It has been titled in 1965 (or around), while the car (obviously) has been build much later, or is even brand new.

I was wondering, is this legal ?

The reason why I am asking is because I want to export a cobra to belgium and here it is impossible to get one on the road being brand new (unless I want to spend $10K-$15K just trying, and then there are still no guarantees). The only way to get it on the road is registering it as an "oldtimer" which means it must be at least 25 years old (it then is being exempt from several tests .. etc).

So, is it possible to title a brand new cobra as car from 1965, so that all paperwork that goes with the car do not show the date of the actual build ?

Thanks for the advice!

[KobraKarl]

That is how I bought mine ,.....but I think the q, is "what is required by your government ?: certificate of origin.? inspection? engine date ?

my Cobra will be 25yrs old in a couple more.....

[Zig]

Originally posted by KobraKarl


That is how I bought mine ,.....but I think the q, is "what is required by your government ?: certificate of origin.? inspection? engine date ?

my Cobra will be 25yrs old in a couple more.....

In Belgium a car needs to be titeled and registered (maybe means something different than is US, I explain ..). If you buy a regular car, it doesn't need to be titled, because the manufacturers (let's say BMW) have gone through the whole process. If the buyer wants to drive the car he/she needs to register it (pay road tax) and receives a license plate for it. If I buy a new cobra and want to bring it on the road here, the manufacturer most certainly hasn't gone through the Belgian tests procedures ) that is where I would need 10K to 15K (and a second car for crash tests !!!!!! ). For new cars I have no other options .. I have to go through the tests. If the cars is older, I have 2 other options, I can register it as an "oldtimer", this means, special restrictions apply (limited miles and action radius, and can only attend events), I just need to prove the car is older than 25 years, 2nd option I just register it as regular car, then the tests are dependant on the age of the car (if let's say 1970, then the test conditions of that year apply to your car) .. so this is much easier. Basically I need a certificate of origin that states the age of the car. In belgium that is the age of the frame, not of the engine.

hmm .. I hope that more clear ?

[Chaplin]

Zig-
I don't think your question is easily answered. I really think that this is a question of Belgium's law. What it comes down to is whether Belgium will give full faith and credit to the laws of the U.S. (or its respective states) that have already issued a valid title for a car stating that it is a 19xx. You should probably do some investigation into Belgium's laws and regulations as they relate to importing cars and see what they say about title requirements.

Sorry couldn't be more help.

[Roscoe]

http://www.titlesunlimitedinc.com/index.html

[Zig]

Originally posted by Chaplin


Zig-
I don't think your question is easily answered. I really think that this is a question of Belgium's law. What it comes down to is whether Belgium will give full faith and credit to the laws of the U.S. (or its respective states) that have already issued a valid title for a car stating that it is a 19xx. You should probably do some investigation into Belgium's laws and regulations as they relate to importing cars and see what they say about title requirements.

Sorry couldn't be more help.

Yes, they accept a valid certificate of origin (this can be a new certificate since it happens quite often that paperwork of "oldtimer" get lost). So, that is no problem. I only was wondering if this would be a legal document in the US, I mean, the car is new after all. I don't mean to break any laws (if I don't have to )

a Title and a certificate or origin .. is that the same ? (I guess, not) .. what is the difference ?

Thanks all for the help!

[WYT VNM]

God Bless America; have mercy on Belgium and California.

[Zig]

Off course, I could put it on trailer and drive the pickup

[SCOBRAC]

The difference is in what is being represented for sale. There are many favorable aspects to a vehicle being titled as a given year. It is legal and very useful, and in many ways quite desireable. That is why it is porminently mentioned in a classified. A car titled as 1966 is generally exempt from smog and emission restrictions, just as one example.

Now.. Did the owner represent a car as being a 196x shelby cobra? If he did, and if it wasn't, that would be fraud. Of course the odds of finding an undocumented original car for private sale is pretty much zero. Documented original cars are for sale quite frequently they also sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars. they are all painstakenly documented in the shelby registry and would most likely be for sale in a very public venue, Barrett Jackson, or other well known auction, or even E-Bay..

Any seller who hesitates to tell you the history of his car or has no documentation, tons of photo's, prior owners names and numbers, etc. component car or original, is just blowing smoke up your skirt and either is just fishing for a value or isn't really interested in selling.

[George Snyder]

Zig,
Why not contact Cobra manufacturers that import and export their cars around the world.
The three located in South Africa come to mind. Superformance, Backdraft, and Performance Cars. I know Performance Cars imports into the US as Venom, but I believe they import to other parts of the World as Brats? Maybe you will get lucky.

[Ibr8k4vetts]

Originally posted by WYT VNM


God Bless America; have mercy on Belgium and California.

At least California dosen't think G.W. is a war criminal
Mike

[Excaliber]

I'll take a stab at the ugly beast! It IS legal to title your "new" Cobra in many US states depending on the state, a couple of different ways.

Some say, the year of the ENGINE will work. Others might say the year the car "most resembles". The BODY style is 1966 for instance.

In the US all cars driven on public highways have to be registered with the State they are IN, the "home base". MOST of the US States also require a certificate of "title". This is used ONLY to prove ownership and has little or nothing to do with getting the car "registered". Without a "title" you can bet it is going to be SO hard to prove "ownership" you will not be able to "register" and get license plates, etc. MANY STATES, but not all, require the car to pass certain "safety" requirements BASED ON THE YEAR on the TITLE of the car. The "title" will only show ONE year, the year the car "represents", which is NOT neccessarily the ACTUAL year the car may have been constructed or RE-Constructed.

Buying an SPF from Africa? An ERA from the US? A "kit" car from say, FFR? They will ALL come with an MSO. Manufacturers certificate or origin (or something like that). Which will show the YEAR the car was BUILT. You pay tax on the "parts" and can show that the "parts" were obtained "legally". With that you can then apply for a "title", which if you KNOW WHAT the laws are in your STATE and PUSH FOR IT will show the year the car "represents" or the year of the "motor", NOT the year of the MSO!

In Hawaii, the State WILL title your car according to the YEAR OF THE MSO and you WILL have to meet the "safety" requirements for a "new car". Which of course, you will NOT be able to meet, so you CANNOT register your car here using an MSO. AT THIS TIME, "legislators" are working on a "loop hole" for us.

SO,,,,,you title your "Cobra" as a 1966 Ford 2 door convertible (NOT as a "Cobra") in SOME OTHER state and in YOUR NAME using a LOCAL address in that "other state" and then ship the car here! Kinda like "shipping it" to Belgium maybe??? Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't!

The Department of Motor vehicles MAY or MAY NOT look closely at the VIN NUMBER assigned to the car by the original manufacturer (SPF, ERA, FFR). They KNOW that in 1966 the VIN NUMBER was only so many digits long. Now YOUR Vin number is WAY to long to have been issued in 1966. "Whats wrong with this picture", they will ask themselves. Now the car has to be "inspected" by a licensed State "re-constructed vehicle" inspector. You WILL FAIL that inspection! You have no outside door handles, no heat shields on your "mufflers" and the list goes on and on. Not to mention there is NO WAY your Vin number comes from a 1966 vehicle, making your TITLE suspect!

Best bet? Buy a car here, title, register and license in YOUR NAME in SOME state in the USA. Ship to Belgium. HOPE they won't catch the size of the Vin number as a "tip off".

Or, do like I did, just buy your Excalibur back because it IS a "real" car, DOT and FED approved for the year it was built. It was NEVER offered as a "kit", the is NO MSO! They were ONLY factory built. The bad news? 1992 to about 1997 are the only years they were made.

OK, actually the "bad news" could go on for another page or two. Federally approved "bumpers", catalytic converters, "third eye" brake light, WAY under powered. To long, to wide, etc. etc. etc. But I still love my Excal, it's a "legal" thing..........

Ernie

[Zig]

Thank you all for your answers.

However, it gets more complicated. Lets say I have a car that has been approved. It'll cost immensly to bring it on the road.

Registration Tax (depends on the Engine) is about 5000$ (one time fee) for a V8 with 350hp or more (my case).
Yearly road tax (depends on the engine too) is about 2500$. And then I'm not talking about insurance yet.

To get a 25 year old car on the road would cost me 100$ at most !

Importing one from SA would be more difficult, (I guess this is rarely done), however cars from the US are imported all the time (but those are the real thing, not kits nor replica's), so the officials know the paperwork.

Hmm ... I guess I have to investigate this further. 3 weeks ago I have seen an E & M titled in 1971 (awesome care by the way) so I know it can be done ! ) But I forgot to ask the guy's number (Hitting myself on the head with an (empty) beer bottle). Oh by the way, the guy with the E & M told me he has found a REAL CSX sitting in a garage in Belgium somewhere (he didn't tell me where) without a body. And best of all, the garage owner doesn't know what it is !!!! The guy with the E & M is just keeping the secret and saving his last penny to buy it ! Can you believe that ?!

btw (off topic, just a reply to a previous post): Here in Belgium we do not think G.W.B is a war criminal. We just think he's an "entrepreneur backed by an army". Being the crossroads of countless invaders throughout the centuries Belgians have a GREAT dislike of war, that doesn't mean that they think S.H. should have stayed where he was. But i'll leave it to that, being new here I won't take the risk of be "tarred and feathered" right away .

[tonyvda]

Zig,

you need to get on the Uk Cobra Website www.cobraclub.com and check out one of the members there called Dave Brookes.

He has his own build company building Cobras, D B Sportcars, probably into build number 80 to 90 by now and he has sold over 35 of them to Germany.

I have no doubt whatsoever that he will be able to get you a Cobra officially and legally registered in Belgium as a new car. We have to take our cars for a extremely comprehensive test called Single Vehicle Approval that ensures that the cars are properly built and up to all up to the current legislation, and once approved can be exported throughout the EU and can be registered in the destination country.

Cheers,

Tony

[Bart Carter]

Some states allow you to build a "reconstructed" vehicle. You can use any combination of old and new parts. Then you title it as the appropriate year.

Anyone know what states that do this?

[Zig]

Originally posted by tonyvda


Zig,

you need to get on the Uk Cobra Website www.cobraclub.com and check out one of the members there called Dave Brookes.

He has his own build company building Cobras, D B Sportcars, probably into build number 80 to 90 by now and he has sold over 35 of them to Germany.

I have no doubt whatsoever that he will be able to get you a Cobra officially and legally registered in Belgium as a new car. We have to take our cars for a extremely comprehensive test called Single Vehicle Approval that ensures that the cars are properly built and up to all up to the current legislation, and once approved can be exported throughout the EU and can be registered in the destination country.

Cheers,

Tony

Tony,

I know the UK cobra scene rather well, actually, I have a DAX and Pilgrim importer very close by. However, I don't think I'll get the car on the road the way I want it. I doubt it if you get a NEW car through the SVA with sidepipes ?! In Belgium, they are forbidden unless the car is old (25 year or so). I've seen/drove several car's: Dax's, Pilgrims, Gardner Douglas (that's a (much) better one), but they all had things I didn't like on them. Maybe, SPF & ERA have that too, I don't know yet .. have to find out. My thinking goes more towards ERA at the moment. I hear nothing but good from them.

Thanks!

[Cal Metal]

Renounce your citizenship and move to the U.S.

[walt347]

Cal Metal, ...... mmmhhhhh it's easier to import a Cobra from the U.S. to Europe than getting a permanent visa for the U.S.

Walter

[Zig]

Originally posted by Cal Metal


Renounce your citizenship and move to the U.S.

I know of one SPF owner in Belgium that has his Homestead(?) in Florida. He's driving his car with a US License Plate

[walt347]

Hi Zig,

I strongly recommend to clarify every detail (!) in advance. Speak to your local authorities, inform them about your plans and ask them what you really need (paperwork, documents, certificates, ......) to get your Belgian license plates. It would also be of help to have copies of the original US papers on hand. In addition to that it would be of great help to have any documents issued by the (kit) builder availabe proofing that the frame was built to accommodate a high HP/torque power plant (e.g. a Big block motor). Give them the feeling that they are important (they are .... without having their signatures your dream will not become true ....), be patient, ... and under no circumstances: offer them money or a free ride in your Cobra !!! These officers will never understand such jokes. Make them feel important !!!

Never finalize the deal with the original owner before having the papers & process approved by your local authorities.

Good luck !!!

Walter